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Willa Rogers
Mar 11, 2005

GreyPowerVan posted:

I thought pro-life people didn't agree with abortions for any reason? Why are they trying to murderpost-birth abort Roe v. Wade???

The Gallup poll quoted in the USPol thread,



when broken down, actually shows a lot more nuance depending on the circumstances involved in a decision to abort:



http://www.gallup.com/poll/1576/abortion.aspx

Further down the page Gallup splits out sentiment by circumstance; only 13-15 percent think that abortion should be barred even if the mother's life or health is endangered, e.g., while 56 percent (!) think that abortion should be illegal because a woman doesn't want to have a child.

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SSJ_naruto_2003
Oct 12, 2012



Ah, interesting. So 13-15% of the population are insane.

Talmonis
Jun 24, 2012
The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

GreyPowerVan posted:

Ah, interesting. So 13-15% of the population are insane.

At a minimum.

Lemming
Apr 21, 2008

GreyPowerVan posted:

Ah, interesting. So 13-15% of the population are insane.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/170822/believe-creationist-view-human-origins.aspx

42% think the Earth poofed into existence 6,000 years ago, so you know what, I feel like it could be worse.

SSJ_naruto_2003
Oct 12, 2012



I meant about this one single issue, please don't make me more depressed about other things, too.

Zeitgueist
Aug 8, 2003

by Ralp

Popular Thug Drink posted:

and my now birthed child is still basically a tumor with eyes that i love very much


If we're going to bug folks making emotional arguments I recommend "comatose internal parasite"

Willa Rogers
Mar 11, 2005

GreyPowerVan posted:

Ah, interesting. So 13-15% of the population are insane.

Well, as pointed out in the USPol thread, it's ideologically consistent, at least, to say that "murdering precious babies" is wrong in any instance, even when its host body is endangered.

I think the far more interesting stats are that solid majorities believe that abortion should be illegal in the instances of the woman's not being able to afford or not wanting a child. To me, that's way more "insane," and far more politically pernicious.

SSJ_naruto_2003
Oct 12, 2012



Willa Rogers posted:

Well, as pointed out in the USPol thread, it's ideologically consistent, at least, to say that "murdering precious babies" is wrong in any instance, even when its host body is endangered.

I think the far more interesting stats are that solid majorities believe that abortion should be illegal in the instances of the woman's not being able to afford or not wanting a child. To me, that's way more "insane," and far more politically pernicious.

Oh yeah, the babies are sacred --- up until they are born and can't afford food. Then I will bitch at their mothers for needing welfare while constantly trying to cut the benefits, thus pushing the child further into poverty.

Zeitgueist
Aug 8, 2003

by Ralp

GreyPowerVan posted:

Oh yeah, the babies are sacred --- up until they are born and can't afford food. Then I will bitch at their mothers for needing welfare while constantly trying to cut the benefits, thus pushing the child further into poverty.

"If you can't afford a kid maybe you shouldn't have one"

I got that one yesterday from someone on facebook who insisted her form of birth control was 100% fail safe. It was not abstinence.

Xibanya
Sep 17, 2012




Clever Betty
All this talk of women who have had an abortion needing to be pitied remind me of people who run up and gush over veterans wearing civvies upon learning that the person is a veteran. It seems to reflect a fundamental lack of understanding of the circumstances involved.

My best friend from high school and her fiance got pregnant (in the sense that she was physically pregnant but he was involved) and she got an abortion but she plans to have a kid with her fiance once she gets her career going. She isn't scarred for life or anything. She doesn't bring it up unless it's relevant to the conversation but she's not ashamed or hosed up in the head or anything.

Every now and then you'll see an article by someone who had an abortion who mentions "sometimes I think of what might have been...they would be five years old now..." Not sure if men do this, but I often think of kids I might have had if my life had been different. I knew a girl who had a kid when she was 16, so every now and then as a thought experiment I think of how my life would be different if that happened to me and I had a nine-year-old kid. I do this for other things too. My parents got married when they were 20 so sometimes I think about what my life would be like if I married whoever I had a crush on at that time. I think everyone has times in their life where they reflect on what could have been; it's not unique to people who have abortions. I think people who have had abortions are uniquely vulnerable in that society is constantly trying to make them re-frame their decision as uniquely bad.

I once had a 50 euro amazon gift card I won in a contest that I forgot about and let expire. drat, I still think about that one sometimes. All the books I could have bought...

EDIT: ^

Zeitgueist posted:

"If you can't afford a kid maybe you shouldn't have one"

I got that one yesterday from someone on facebook who insisted her form of birth control was 100% fail safe. It was not abstinence.

Speaking of eugenics, this attitude is pretty hosed up because it implies only the wealthy are worthy of passing on their precious genetic material.

SpiderHyphenMan
Apr 1, 2010

by Fluffdaddy
What's the latest that an abortion can safely be performed without seriously risking the life of the mother?

Xibanya
Sep 17, 2012




Clever Betty

SpiderHyphenMan posted:

What's the latest that an abortion can safely be performed without seriously risking the life of the mother?

All surgery is dangerous to some degree, so when it comes to late term abortions I believe you have to weigh the chance of death from the abortion against the chance of death from not extracting the fetus.

Hey, I know, let's ask Savita Halappanavar. Oh wait, oops.

Zeitgueist
Aug 8, 2003

by Ralp
As a reminder, a third trimester abortion is almost always being done because of serious health threat to the mother, and extremely hard to have done because the lack of providers.

boner confessor
Apr 25, 2013

by R. Guyovich

Zeitgueist posted:

If we're going to bug folks making emotional arguments I recommend "comatose internal parasite"

"if it weren't for the heavy doses of oxytocin and bonding hormones which flood my brain in the presence of my child, i would eliminate this squalling hellbeast at the earliest opportunity"

boner confessor fucked around with this message at 01:21 on Jan 23, 2015

Guavanaut
Nov 27, 2009

Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998



Toilet Rascal

Popular Thug Drink posted:

i apologize to my infant child every day as i sincerely believe existence is one of the cruelest things you can inflict on a person
David Benatar makes a fairly solid case that there are always harms involved in bringing a child into existence, and that those harms outweigh any benefits by means of asymmetry. (If you exist, you experience both harm and pleasure, if you don't exist, you don't experience the harm and you don't miss the pleasure.) Since the child cannot consent as to whether to exist or not, that balance of harm is taken on behalf of the child by the parent without their consent. Sure, if the parent really wants the child, they will bring the child into existence whatever, but it means that any argument that the pro-life side puts forward about the fetus not getting a choice in being aborted has a counter in the fetus not getting a choice in being born, and we can show that at least one of those does demonstrably cause asymmetric suffering.

The problem with most of the pro-life (and a sizable chunk of pro-choice) people is that they default to the optimistic position that life somehow has an intrinsic or unquestionable value, life qua life, and that the teeming billions of unborn are somehow missing out on this by their nonexistence, rather than conceding that existence causes harm, termination may cause harm, and we're simply debating which is the lesser. (And also whether you actually exist that far back. If you take persistence of memory as a starting point for the existence of a 'self', you don't really start existing until about 5 months old.)

Philosophical pessimists don't get a lot of airtime in public discourse though (Benatar is a rare exception in that he got some radio spots in South Africa about 10 years back) so the intrinsic value argument often goes unchallenged by either side.

boner confessor
Apr 25, 2013

by R. Guyovich

Guavanaut posted:

David Benatar makes a fairly solid case that there are always harms involved in bringing a child into existence, and that those harms outweigh any benefits by means of asymmetry. (If you exist, you experience both harm and pleasure, if you don't exist, you don't experience the harm and you don't miss the pleasure.) Since the child cannot consent as to whether to exist or not, that balance of harm is taken on behalf of the child by the parent without their consent. Sure, if the parent really wants the child, they will bring the child into existence whatever, but it means that any argument that the pro-life side puts forward about the fetus not getting a choice in being aborted has a counter in the fetus not getting a choice in being born, and we can show that at least one of those does demonstrably cause asymmetric suffering.

The problem with most of the pro-life (and a sizable chunk of pro-choice) people is that they default to the optimistic position that life somehow has an intrinsic or unquestionable value, life qua life, and that the teeming billions of unborn are somehow missing out on this by their nonexistence, rather than conceding that existence causes harm, termination may cause harm, and we're simply debating which is the lesser. (And also whether you actually exist that far back. If you take persistence of memory as a starting point for the existence of a 'self', you don't really start existing until about 5 months old.)

Philosophical pessimists don't get a lot of airtime in public discourse though (Benatar is a rare exception in that he got some radio spots in South Africa about 10 years back) so the intrinsic value argument often goes unchallenged by either side.

yeah this is pretty much my attitude, life is an equal share of pain and pleasure and it's insanely brutal to subject another person to living without their consent. creating an unwilling life is the same to me as ending one, something which should never be done willingly but the whole human tragedy just kind of keeps lurching on anyway so you just have to accept that things happen and deal with the consequences

SSJ_naruto_2003
Oct 12, 2012



i mean i guess continuing the human race is a goal that is good for the human race, but probably bad for the rest of earth

abort all babies

Panzeh
Nov 27, 2006

"..The high ground"

GreyPowerVan posted:

abort all babies

I agree with this position. It's the only way forward.

ExplodingChef
May 25, 2005

Deathscorts are the true American heroes.

Zeitgueist posted:

As a reminder, a third trimester abortion is almost always being done because of serious health threat to the mother, and extremely hard to have done because the lack of providers.

If anyone is interested in the how and why behind third trimester abortions, I highly recommend tracking down a copy of After Tiller.

http://aftertillermovie.com for a preview.

There are *4* doctors in the entire US that perform third trimester abortions. Four.

Chelb
Oct 24, 2010

I'm gonna show SA-kun my shitposting!

ExplodingChef posted:

If anyone is interested in the how and why behind third trimester abortions, I highly recommend tracking down a copy of After Tiller.

http://aftertillermovie.com for a preview.

There are *4* doctors in the entire US that perform third trimester abortions. Four.

I watched it on netflix. loving incredible documentary, everyone should watch it.

Ultramega
Jul 9, 2004

Guavanaut posted:

David Benatar makes a fairly solid case that there are always harms involved in bringing a child into existence, and that those harms outweigh any benefits by means of asymmetry. (If you exist, you experience both harm and pleasure, if you don't exist, you don't experience the harm and you don't miss the pleasure.) Since the child cannot consent as to whether to exist or not, that balance of harm is taken on behalf of the child by the parent without their consent. Sure, if the parent really wants the child, they will bring the child into existence whatever, but it means that any argument that the pro-life side puts forward about the fetus not getting a choice in being aborted has a counter in the fetus not getting a choice in being born, and we can show that at least one of those does demonstrably cause asymmetric suffering.

The problem with most of the pro-life (and a sizable chunk of pro-choice) people is that they default to the optimistic position that life somehow has an intrinsic or unquestionable value, life qua life, and that the teeming billions of unborn are somehow missing out on this by their nonexistence, rather than conceding that existence causes harm, termination may cause harm, and we're simply debating which is the lesser. (And also whether you actually exist that far back. If you take persistence of memory as a starting point for the existence of a 'self', you don't really start existing until about 5 months old.)

Philosophical pessimists don't get a lot of airtime in public discourse though (Benatar is a rare exception in that he got some radio spots in South Africa about 10 years back) so the intrinsic value argument often goes unchallenged by either side.

I got into a heated talk with one of my extended family members on facebook after they posted some anti-abortion video and I made basically the same argument; what right do you have to bring a child who may possibly be unwilling to be born, into the world which was met with a wall of emotional appeals and moral judgements and a few other people from her friends list chiming in to make sure I knew just how bad a person I was and no matter what I said I had to live with the fact I killed my child(my girlfriend and I had an unplanned pregnancy and decided to terminate it last year). What the gently caress is wrong with people. Also if you think posting some video cultivated and edited to elicit a specific response in people is going to do anything beyond confirm their already existing bias you're living in a fantasy world.

Ultramega fucked around with this message at 08:29 on Jan 23, 2015

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

It's weird that babies, which are generally quite easy to produce a rough copy of, are considered far more valuable than adult humans, which are far harder to produce similar versions of.

woke wedding drone
Jun 1, 2003

by exmarx
Fun Shoe

Talmonis posted:

They're alive and can dream and think. Sure, it's basic, but it's still human life. I understand if it's not enough for you and for others, but it is for me. Maybe human life has no inherent meaning or value, but honestly I don't think I want to live in a world where that's the prevailing view.

It sounds like you already know it doesn't.

Orkin Mang
Nov 1, 2007

by FactsAreUseless
i believe what u guys rock. let me just say: freedom. u know the score

Orkin Mang
Nov 1, 2007

by FactsAreUseless

SedanChair posted:

It sounds like you already know it doesn't.

way to persist in time, lardass

Orkin Mang
Nov 1, 2007

by FactsAreUseless

Willa Rogers posted:

Well, as pointed out in the USPol thread, it's ideologically consistent, at least, to say that "murdering precious babies" is wrong in any instance, even when its host body is endangered.

I think the far more interesting stats are that solid majorities believe that abortion should be illegal in the instances of the woman's not being able to afford or not wanting a child. To me, that's way more "insane," and far more politically pernicious.

ur a hardass. i love the heroic language you use

Orkin Mang
Nov 1, 2007

by FactsAreUseless

OwlFancier posted:

It's weird that babies, which are generally quite easy to produce a rough copy of, are considered far more valuable than adult humans, which are far harder to produce similar versions of.

ur a loving retard. read this post out loud to yourself and expire of aspergers, the first direct fatality every

woke wedding drone
Jun 1, 2003

by exmarx
Fun Shoe

Orkin Mang posted:

way to persist in time, lardass

Hush up now. Since there's no inherent value to life, find new value in punctuation.

Orkin Mang
Nov 1, 2007

by FactsAreUseless

SedanChair posted:

Hush up now. Since there's no inherent value to life, find new value in punctuation.

gently caress u. read a goddamn book.

Orkin Mang
Nov 1, 2007

by FactsAreUseless
given that human beings are material objects their functional value exhausts their total value~~~said by a blase catechist

rudatron
May 31, 2011

by Fluffdaddy

Willa Rogers posted:

Well, as pointed out in the USPol thread, it's ideologically consistent, at least, to say that "murdering precious babies" is wrong in any instance, even when its host body is endangered.

I think the far more interesting stats are that solid majorities believe that abortion should be illegal in the instances of the woman's not being able to afford or not wanting a child. To me, that's way more "insane," and far more politically pernicious.
I don't think that's really going to change or is that surprising: murder isn't justified because you're poor, the issue is when do you classify something as a 'person'.

A big flaming stink
Apr 26, 2010

Popular Thug Drink posted:

yeah this is pretty much my attitude, life is an equal share of pain and pleasure and it's insanely brutal to subject another person to living without their consent. creating an unwilling life is the same to me as ending one, something which should never be done willingly but the whole human tragedy just kind of keeps lurching on anyway so you just have to accept that things happen and deal with the consequences

yeah whatever Rust

Orkin Mang
Nov 1, 2007

by FactsAreUseless

Popular Thug Drink posted:

yeah this is pretty much my attitude, life is an equal share of pain and pleasure and it's insanely brutal to subject another person to living without their consent. creating an unwilling life is the same to me as ending one, something which should never be done willingly but the whole human tragedy just kind of keeps lurching on anyway so you just have to accept that things happen and deal with the consequences

ur mentall deficient. though i appreciate the slurry of conventional nihilism u graced me with, u shambling negation of being

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

poopinmymouth
Mar 2, 2005

PROUD 2 B AMERICAN (these colors don't run)

ExplodingChef posted:

If anyone is interested in the how and why behind third trimester abortions, I highly recommend tracking down a copy of After Tiller.

http://aftertillermovie.com for a preview.

There are *4* doctors in the entire US that perform third trimester abortions. Four.

Could we get a TL:DW?

For example, I'm pro choice, but here in Iceland, it's not even possible to get a third trimester abortion (though we have epic reproductive rights in all other aspects) and I see that most of the scandinavian nations are similar. Why is it that the US needs late term abortions (outside of the health issues)? Is it purely because of the lack of reproductive rights and education early on?

Stereotype
Apr 24, 2010

College Slice
My cat can feel pain and make shapes with his hand and also has a distinct personality.

corn in the bible
Jun 5, 2004

Oh no oh god it's all true!

Senethro
May 18, 2005

I unironically think I'm Garret, Master Thief.

I honestly can't tell what his point is but somehow just looking at these two panels makes me feel anxious. The kind that asks "Am I dreaming or did a real person actually draw this?"

Senethro fucked around with this message at 15:46 on Jan 23, 2015

Guavanaut
Nov 27, 2009

Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998



Toilet Rascal
C)


I'm sure A and B also helped too. I'd phrase them as "A) a social safety net or B) family planning across all families" though.

Effectronica
May 31, 2011
Fallen Rib

Senethro posted:

I honestly can't tell what his point is but somehow just looking at these two panels makes me feel anxious. The kind that asks "Am I dreaming or did a real person actually draw this?"


Guavanaut posted:

C)


I'm sure A and B also helped too. I'd phrase them as "A) a social safety net or B) family planning across all families" though.

Lawl. You're redeeming yourself crowfeathers.

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icantfindaname
Jul 1, 2008


Senethro posted:

I honestly can't tell what his point is but somehow just looking at these two panels makes me feel anxious. The kind that asks "Am I dreaming or did a real person actually draw this?"

It may be hard to believe but people like that make up a good third of the US voting base at the least

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