Abortion: Fetus Masturbation

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Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

Continuing from General Politics.

Xibanya posted:

I also want to frame this in a different way. In many countries from which people adopt, children are kept in orphanages under disgusting conditions. Those who are raised in these orphanages often have significant physical and developmental delays due to malnutrition and negligence and have poor outcomes.

If a couple begins the process of adopting a child, they can specify that the child have no physical or mental handicaps. They can also be in the process of adopting a child and then decide not to adopt at that time. (Many give up due to the difficulty involved in the process.) Is it "ghoulish" for them to be consigning the children they pass up to a life of misery and poverty? After all, most people want babies and not older children - if someone isn't adopted as a baby their chance of being adopted at all is diminished significantly. Should the potential adoptive mother be shamed for passing up a disabled child?

It's generally seen as understandable for an adoptive parent to try to choose a child based around certain criteria.

By the logic seen by some in this thread we should stuff the first baby a caseworker lays eyes on in the arms of potential adoptive parents regardless of the couple's preferences and accuse them frivolously throwing away human life if they don't like that arrangement.

Edit: dang you guys move fast, didn't see the new baby killing thread.

I don't think it's even close to the same thing though. That adoptive parent isn't consigning that other child to death, that lovely country is. Hell, for even going that far, and adopting a kid in need, that parent is awesome in my eyes. But if it's your baby, you make that choice whether to terminate it or not. It's between you, and your doctor and whatever morality system or lack thereof that you have. It doesn't matter that I think it's a terrible and preventable tragedy.

I've worked with disabled kids in the past, and wish that I could get through the schooling needed to do it for a living. Those kids deserve better than we give them.

# ¿ Jan 22, 2015 22:14

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# ¿ Apr 27, 2024 11:02

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

Xibanya posted:

From old thread:

Why is this a tragedy? Inconvenient, but she can try again. You argued that we should cry for aborted babies because they have heartbeats and brain activity and that we shouldn't cry for eggs shed during the menstrual cycle because they don't but didn't provide a convincing argument why a heartbeat and brain activity alone are enough for personhood. You know that pigs can have rich emotional lives but I see no indication that you have given up pork. The difference between a fetus and a pig is that a fetus may some day become human - but the potential future attempt at pregnancy can also some day become human. Why should the potential wanted pregnancy be sacrificed for the unwanted pregnancy when both are just potential and are not anything in their own right?

People with inherited genetic defects often already screen for the gene and use in-vitro to conceive, so these traits are already being selected against. It's a poor reason to look down on people who choose to abort.

(from USPol thread)

They're alive and can dream and think. Sure, it's basic, but it's still human life. I understand if it's not enough for you and for others, but it is for me. Maybe human life has no inherent meaning or value, but honestly I don't think I want to live in a world where that's the prevailing view.

I do grapple with eating meat. It's something I don't want to think about, because it makes me feel really guilty. I wish I could go full vegetarian without a whole lot of trouble, especially the lack of food that I'd actually want to eat. We probably shouldn't be eating mammals at all. They all dream. Fish? Do they even dream? Chickens? I don't know. We probably should work towards being more vegetarian as a species, if we can.

I don't look down on people who get abortions. I pity them. I feel sorry for what they did. Sad for the life lost before it had a chance. Sure it's sappy and internet uncool to have an emotional attachment to anything, but there it is.

CommieGIR posted:

I mean, it comes down to this: If its an abortion within the first trimester, especially really close to conception, is it really any more of our business than, say, if that woman had a miscarriage and never knew?

Nope. But then again, I don't think it's any of our business regardless of when someone chooses to have one. It really is just thier decision.

Talmonis fucked around with this message at 22:37 on Jan 22, 2015

# ¿ Jan 22, 2015 22:35

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

joeburz posted:

Do you feel sorry for a person to be brought to life in a family incapable or undesiring of their existence? Although to be honest it doesn't even matter because you're not the only giving birth to them.

Yep. Then too. It's crappy all around. We need a lot better birth control, and Abstainance isn't it.

# ¿ Jan 22, 2015 22:40

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

Xibanya posted:

Choosing to not take an action is still an action in my book. Perhaps we would fundamentally disagree on the solution to this problem:

In my eyes it would be wrong not to push the side track man into the path of the oncoming train. Sounds like you believe it would be better to let "nature take its course".

Many adoptive parents and adoptees will tell you that the adoptive parents are not adopting out of some mission of mercy, they're adopting because they really badly want a goddamn kid. The idea that an adoptive child should be more grateful to their parents than a natural child would be to their bio parents is a bit of a gross one. Adopting a child is no more or less selfish than having a biological child.

I'm imagining I'm pregnant and learn the fetus will develop a severe mental disability, but because of attitudes like the above, my partner pressures me (possibly emotionally blackmails me) into carrying the child to term. I now I have a developmentally disabled child who, as an adult, can never be independent or advocate for him/herself. I pass on in my old age and then rapacious relatives circumvent the trust fund I set up for the care of my child when I was still alive and spend all the money I left behind and put my adult child in a terrible nursing home where they are abused, sexually and physically, for the rest of their life. That is a terrible and preventable tragedy.

No, my solution is to treat it as a tragedy for the choice you've made. Either way you're damned in that situation. You've killed a man. Or on the topic, your unborn child. You get to then live with that. Ho hum, just go about my day? gently caress that. That's really callous to me.

More grateful? No. But they should definitely be grateful that someone loved them enough to give them a home and a family.

Do you consider miscarriages to be just an eye rolling inconvenience, or a tragedy? Why is it wrong for a father of a child to be distressed when it dies?

# ¿ Jan 22, 2015 22:58

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

AstheWorldWorlds posted:

Am I to understand that you personally do not like this development and would detest abortions involving less serious problems (I disagree with your argument but less us assume it is true) but would not seek a change in the laws to meet your moral standards?

Yes, that's exactly right. It's the choice of the individual woman. I shouldn't have a say. I can still be sad about it. I think it's odd that more people don't feel this way, to be honest.

# ¿ Jan 22, 2015 23:00

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

Trabisnikof posted:

Citation please? Remember, we're talking about all abortions here, not just 3rd trimester.

I've been talking about 2nd & 3rd. First is just an embryo.

# ¿ Jan 22, 2015 23:10

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

Trabisnikof posted:

Strange, that's not what you've been saying:

Also where's your proof that fetuses dream and think during the second trimester?

Errr, a lot of those tests are done well after the first trimester. Checking for undeveloped or malformed lungs, brain, bowel, etc.

My wife is currently in the (admittedly late) second trimester. My son wakes up like clockwork after meals and kicks the poo poo out of her. I've watched a sonogram of him when he got the hiccups. I've seen him sleep, and dreamily twitch in it. So yeah, it's not the full documented and confirmed thesis you may want, but it's good enough for me to see he's alive, valuable and not just some kind of tumor with eyes and a face. So foolish I am, apparently for not writing a documented thesis about it first.

Edit: Ah, so yes. Tumor with eyes to you lot. Got it.

# ¿ Jan 22, 2015 23:21

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# ¿ Apr 27, 2024 11:02

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

GreyPowerVan posted:

Ah, interesting. So 13-15% of the population are insane.

At a minimum.

# ¿ Jan 23, 2015 00:16

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