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Shakugan posted:you're being just an anecdotal as the poster you're making fun of. Freshly minted college grads at schools with good tech programs get hired without internships at their place of hire all the time. The issue of course being how many schools have good tech programs. We need some actual data on job placements/offers in the tech industry to really be able to take the discussion any further, otherwise it's just a bunch of people assuming that the way things happen/happened in their school is the norm. The job opportunities of history majors at my school are amazing, but do I think history majors in general have good employment prospects? Not a chance. You know what, I'm sorry. You're right. He's right. His college adviser is right and you know what, gently caress it, your college adviser is right too. I and the rest of the roughly 50 years of industry experience that's posted on the last two pages are wrong. All the friends of goons in the industry seeing the same things? Oh they're wrong too. We've all just been doing it wrong. STEM is a goddamn magic river from which jobs forever flow forth. All we need to do is to (retroactively) pony up the cash to go to Fuckhead University. That way in a recession, we could have looked forward to a 50/50 shot of getting completely ratfucked. GODDAMN AMAZING. Let's look up some statistics just to show how wrong I am. http://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2014/cb14-130.html quote:The U.S. Census Bureau reported today that 74 percent of those who have a bachelor's degree in science, technology, engineering and math — commonly referred to as STEM — are not employed in STEM occupations. In addition, men continue to be overrepresented in STEM, especially in computer and engineering occupations. About 86 percent of engineers and 74 percent of computer professionals are men. God drat those 74 percent of STEM majors who couldn't find work in the industry are wrong too.
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Jan 31, 2015 20:00
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Iron Twinkie posted:http://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2014/cb14-130.html You're replying to a post about "tech" meaning "computer science" with data about "STEM" meaning "computer science plus a whole bunch of other stuff". It wouldn't surprise me if the 26% of people who do find work were mostly CS students, who actually do seem to have a ridiculously easy time finding decent work.
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Jan 31, 2015 20:02
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Iron Twinkie posted:Let's look up some statistics just to show how wrong I am. What percent of those non-STEM jobs are medicine?
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Jan 31, 2015 20:05
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Iron Twinkie posted:You know what, I'm sorry. You're right. He's right. His college adviser is right and you know what, gently caress it, your college adviser is right too. I and the rest of the roughly 50 years of industry experience that's posted on the last two pages are wrong. All the friends of goons in the industry seeing the same things? Oh they're wrong too. We've all just been doing it wrong. STEM is a goddamn magic river from which jobs forever flow forth. All we need to do is to (retroactively) pony up the cash to go to Fuckhead University. That way in a recession, we could have looked forward to a 50/50 shot of getting completely ratfucked. GODDAMN AMAZING. Those US census statistics you are citing include subjects like biology, psychology, and the social sciences, for which it is kind of well known that it is difficult to find a job in the same field after graduation. EB Nulshit and Shakugan are talking mostly about the "E portion" of STEM, engineering and computer science, where it is a lot easier to find work after graduation. silence_kit fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Jan 31, 2015 |
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Jan 31, 2015 20:28
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Iron Twinkie posted:You know what, I'm sorry. You're right. He's right. His college adviser is right and you know what, gently caress it, your college adviser is right too. I and the rest of the roughly 50 years of industry experience that's posted on the last two pages are wrong. All the friends of goons in the industry seeing the same things? Oh they're wrong too. We've all just been doing it wrong. STEM is a goddamn magic river from which jobs forever flow forth. All we need to do is to (retroactively) pony up the cash to go to Fuckhead University. That way in a recession, we could have looked forward to a 50/50 shot of getting completely ratfucked. GODDAMN AMAZING. Those stats are for 25 to 64 year olds, not recent grads. And for the "E" part of STEM, like we were discussing, half of Engineering majors are Engineers or "Computer Workers", and another 15% or so are Managers, which is a common career jump for anybody.
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Jan 31, 2015 20:46
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disheveled posted:I'm not suggesting that you're hosed at a less prestigious university by any means. I also doubt the big names only hire from prestigious universities. In fields that aren't finance, you can find ways to distinguish yourself coming from anywhere. Hiring based on university prestige is just everyone doubling down on the 'only college graduates are qualified for anything more than burger flipping' bullshit.
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Jan 31, 2015 21:08
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EB Nulshit posted:You're replying to a post about "tech" meaning "computer science" with data about "STEM" meaning "computer science plus a whole bunch of other stuff". silence_kit posted:Those UC census statistics you are citing include subjects like biology, psychology, and the social sciences, for which it is kind of well known that it is difficult to find a job in the same field after graduation. EB Nulshit and Shakugan are talking mostly about the "E portion" of STEM, engineering and computer science, where it is a lot easier to find work after graduation. ChipNDip posted:Those stats are for 25 to 64 year olds, not recent grads. And for the "E" part of STEM, like we were discussing, half of Engineering majors are Engineers or "Computer Workers", and another 15% or so are Managers, which is a common career jump for anybody. I didn't know we were moving the goalposts and that CS and engineers are the only "real" STEM majors but whatever. http://www.census.gov/dataviz/visualizations/stem/stem-html/ http://www.census.gov/dataviz/visualizations/stem/stem-html/stem_data_table.xlsx quote:STEM workers are those employed in science, technology, engineering, and mathematics occupations. To enhance comparability of data across statistical agencies and organizations studying the STEM workforce, the Standard Occupational Classification Policy Committee, consisting of representatives from 9 federal agencies, convened throughout 2011 at the request of the Office of Management and Budget to create guidelines for the classification of STEM workers. The final recommendations are available online at https://www.bls.gov/soc/#crosswalks. Based on this classification, STEM includes computer and mathematical occupations, engineers, engineering technicians, life scientists, physical scientists, social scientists, science technicians, and STEM managers. STEM-related occupations consist of architects, health care practitioners, health care managers, and health care technicians. Non-STEM occupations are all other occupations not classified in STEM or STEM-related occupations. That 15% are managers in non-STEM fields (it even says it on the graph as well). Checking the break down computers, mathematics, and statistics majors are employed in the STEM field at 49.2% and Engineering is at 49.5% which better than 25.7% across all STEM fields as a whole but it's still loving terrible.
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Jan 31, 2015 21:37
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Iron Twinkie posted:Checking the break down computers, mathematics, and statistics majors are employed in the STEM field at 49.2% and Engineering is at 49.5% which better than 25.7% across all STEM fields as a whole but it's still loving terrible. "Engineering" contains more than computer science, if it contains that in the first place. "Computers, mathematics, and statistics" also contains more than computer science - and math and stats aren't particularly great for jobs as far as I know. I bet the percentage still increases when narrowed down to computer science.
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Jan 31, 2015 21:49
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computer parts posted:What percent of those non-STEM jobs are medicine? Yeah I kinda wish the tables did a better job splitting up on the "STEM related" and non-STEM fields. If I am looking at the data right, the short answer is about 10% but here's how I broke it down. Total STEM Majors Surveyed: 14,807,725 Total STEM Majors in Medical: 1,478,430 STEM Majors in Medical by Major Computers, mathematics, and statistics 37,485 Engineering 61,625 Physical and related sciences 223,030 Biological, agricultural, and environmental sciences 827,565 Psychology 193,710 Social sciences 93,530 Multidisciplinary studies 41,485 EB Nulshit posted:"Engineering" contains more than computer science, if it contains that in the first place. "Computers, mathematics, and statistics" also contains more than computer science - and math and stats aren't particularly great for jobs as far as I know. I bet the percentage still increases when narrowed down to computer science. If you really believe that there is a significant difference in employment rates between those three areas and computer science specifically, then you are more than welcome to look up and source your own statistics. Iron Twinkie fucked around with this message at 22:40 on Jan 31, 2015 |
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Jan 31, 2015 22:34
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That is funny because even CS majors complain about job seeking, and how many "pretenders" end in up in CS. I bet most CS graduates wouldn't be so thrilled if every 18 year was more or less forced into CS because "liberal arts are obsolete." (It is funny too because economics is included in social science and by many "liberal arts" and it is on the upper edge of the pay scale.)
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Jan 31, 2015 22:38
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Solution: Everyone has to major in computer science. I am sure an increased supply of people won't affect things like wages.
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Feb 2, 2015 14:02
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high six posted:Solution: Everyone has to major in computer science. I am sure an increased supply of people won't affect things like wages. The serious response to this is that CS is broad enough to absorb tons more people.
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Feb 2, 2015 21:06
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computer parts posted:The serious response to this is that CS is broad enough to absorb tons more people. That was never said about STEM, or literally any other flavor of the month majors that are now glutted. No sir, never.
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Feb 2, 2015 21:11
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My favorite was the hyped subfield that was DOA: biomedical engineering. Everyone uses it as a club for med school
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Feb 2, 2015 21:15
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Peven Stan posted:My favorite was the hyped subfield that was DOA: biomedical engineering. Everyone uses it as a club for med school Yeah that's my buddy who went in it because "I have no respect for premeds who just do bio" and is now at UIUC's med school. My mom has a good friend who works for Genentech and she said for one job opening there were a whopping 4,000 applicants 
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Feb 2, 2015 21:25
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computer parts posted:The serious response to this is that CS is broad enough to absorb tons more people. Just like nursing was, right?
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Feb 2, 2015 21:42
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Rand alPaul posted:That was never said about STEM, or literally any other flavor of the month majors that are now glutted. No sir, never. I actually don't think that's a likely outcome for CS. It's quite a challenging field, and not terribly exciting or interesting for most people. In addition, the demand has been growing steadily over the past two decades. Things stagnated somewhat after the Dotcom bubble but it's a lot easier for a CS major to find a well-paying job today than back in 1995. This has never been true for most of STEM. Jerry Manderbilt posted:Yeah that's my buddy who went in it because "I have no respect for premeds who just do bio" and is now at UIUC's med school. For the record, the number of applicants mean absolutely nothing. The vast, vast majority of those applicants are going to be hilariously unqualified.
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Feb 2, 2015 21:49
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Law is quite a challenging field, and not terribly exciting or interesting for most people, yet, it's horrendously glutted with folks. Also, programmer wages have been stagnant for a long time(1), which indicates that there is no shortage of talent when compared when demand. Lastly, every single person who studies programming decreases the bargaining power of every other programmer. The problem isn't that folks aren't studying "the right thing", the problem is that there are simply not enough jobs, much less decent paying jobs, for folks. If everyone became an aspergers CS major, then either a lot of people would fail out (And thereby, the solution of majoring in the "right" thing wouldn't work for them) or wages in the field would plummet. 1. http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/04/the-myth-of-americas-tech-talent-shortage/275319/
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Feb 2, 2015 22:05
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For the record, the number of applicants mean absolutely nothing. The vast, vast majority of those applicants are going to be hilariously unqualified. [/quote] Even if 10% are well qualified that's still 400 people who can conceivably do the job. My department requires an associates or 2 years exp. and yet for our most recent 2 openings 200+ people applied the first day so management pulled the notice.
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Feb 2, 2015 22:30
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Moreover, the companies hiring CS majors aren't all necessarily looking for CS majors. Most of them are looking for programmers, and as time goes on, you're going to see more people with sufficient programming skills without a CS degree.
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Feb 2, 2015 22:32
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high six posted:Law is quite a challenging field, and not terribly exciting or interesting for most people, yet, it's horrendously glutted with folks. That's because the industry has been mostly stagnant in relation to the rest of the economy.  Other than that, the number of degrees awarded every year has stayed about the same for the past 25 years.  Law is also categorically different than computer science. It's a non-technical field that is mostly about logic and reasoning and being able to put up with extremely time-consuming and tedious tasks. It is challenging in terms of the sheer workload, not the difficulty of the subject material, at least according to a couple of friends who earned CS degrees and went on to study law. quote:Also, programmer wages have been stagnant for a long time(1), which indicates that there is no shortage of talent when compared when demand. Programmer wages have been stagnant mostly as a result of Google, Facebook and Apple (the three "hot" and prestigious giants in the industry) colluding to depress them. There's a huge lawsuit going on about this right now. quote:Lastly, every single person who studies programming decreases the bargaining power of every other programmer. The problem isn't that folks aren't studying "the right thing", the problem is that there are simply not enough jobs, much less decent paying jobs, for folks. If everyone became an aspergers CS major, then either a lot of people would fail out (And thereby, the solution of majoring in the "right" thing wouldn't work for them) or wages in the field would plummet. My argument is not that everyone should become a CS major, but that not everyone can become a CS major.
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Feb 2, 2015 22:55
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enraged_camel posted:Programmer wages have been stagnant mostly as a result of Google, Facebook and Apple (the three "hot" and prestigious giants in the industry) colluding to depress them. There's a huge lawsuit going on about this right now. That's quite the claim. So three major tech companies collude to depress wages and that depresses wages outside of Silicon Valley? Why?
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Feb 2, 2015 23:05
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enraged_camel posted:
So what is the point of your post?
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Feb 2, 2015 23:06
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Radbot posted:That's quite the claim. So three major tech companies collude to depress wages and that depresses wages outside of Silicon Valley? Why? are you serious? companies tend to base their salaries on what the trendsetters in their field pay
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Feb 2, 2015 23:28
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Radbot posted:That's quite the claim. So three major tech companies collude to depress wages and that depresses wages outside of Silicon Valley? Why? Because they have a lot of influence in the industry and other companies use the wages at Google/Facebook/Apple as data-points when setting their own wages to be able to properly compete with them for talent.
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Feb 2, 2015 23:30
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Condiv posted:are you serious? companies tend to base their salaries on what the trendsetters in their field pay Oh, for sure! But Google/Apple/Facebook workforce makes up a tiny proportion of the total tech workforce. Collusion between three decent size players that maybe make up, what, 5-10% of the total tech workforce doesn't seem like it would depress wages universally. Maybe it would for insanely specialized jobs, though - like the math post-docs that develop Google Dremel, etc.
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Feb 2, 2015 23:40
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enraged_camel posted:Programmer wages have been stagnant mostly as a result of Google, Facebook and Apple (the three "hot" and prestigious giants in the industry) colluding to depress them. There's a huge lawsuit going on about this right now. As far as I know, Facebook isn't a part of this: http://pando.com/2014/03/22/revealed-apple-and-googles-wage-fixing-cartel-involved-dozens-more-companies-over-one-million-employees/
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Feb 2, 2015 23:40
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Radbot posted:Oh, for sure! But Google/Apple/Facebook workforce makes up a tiny proportion of the total tech workforce. Collusion between three decent size players that maybe make up, what, 5-10% of the total tech workforce doesn't seem like it would depress wages universally. Maybe it would for insanely specialized jobs, though - like the math post-docs that develop Google Dremel, etc. as i said, these are the most sucessful companies in their field, and when they say the best of the best cs grads are worth 50k/year smaller time companies are going to offer around that or less. this is not hard to understand, these companies are currently thought of as hiring the top programming talent in america
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Feb 2, 2015 23:53
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Condiv posted:as i said, these are the most sucessful companies in their field, and when they say the best of the best cs grads are worth 50k/year smaller time companies are going to offer around that or less. this is not hard to understand, these companies are currently thought of as hiring the top programming talent in america All of these companies have first year comp over 150k for fresh grad software engineers.
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Feb 2, 2015 23:55
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blah_blah posted:All of these companies have first year comp over 150k for fresh grad software engineers. The median is actually around $100k. It may sound like a lot, but SF is insanely expensive. Anyway, the point is that they would be making more if it wasn't for wage suppression.
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Feb 2, 2015 23:59
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blah_blah posted:All of these companies have first year comp over 150k for fresh grad software engineers. yeah when i said 50k it was a hypothetical number, not what i actually think goog pays fresh cs grads
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Feb 2, 2015 23:59
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enraged_camel posted:I actually don't think that's a likely outcome for CS. It's quite a challenging field, and not terribly exciting or interesting for most people. In addition, the demand has been growing steadily over the past two decades. Things stagnated somewhat after the Dotcom bubble but it's a lot easier for a CS major to find a well-paying job today than back in 1995. Really? I distinctly remembering people talking poo poo about CS all throughout the early 2000s, even post Dotcom Bubble, for a whole bevy of reasons. Now that it's hot again I'm incredibly suspicious.
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Feb 3, 2015 00:00
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enraged_camel posted:The median is actually around $100k. It may sound like a lot, but SF is insanely expensive. Median salary is around that number, but then when you factor in first year signing bonus (15-20k), target 10-15% of base salary bonus, first year of stock vesting (10-40k), you get to 150k pretty easily. That doesn't even count other benefits such as 401(k) matching, or relocation. I'm very familiar with SF salaries/costs.
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Feb 3, 2015 00:05
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blah_blah posted:Median salary is around that number, but then when you factor in first year signing bonus (15-20k), target 10-15% of base salary bonus, first year of stock vesting (10-40k), you get to 150k pretty easily. That doesn't even count other benefits such as 401(k) matching, or relocation. I'm very familiar with SF salaries/costs. Out of curiosity, and because it's kind of relevant for me right now, what would be a typical first-year comp for someone with ~2 years of experience, rather than a fresh grad? And how are you familiar with these numbers?
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Feb 3, 2015 03:18
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Probably not substantially different than the above numbers, unless you're coming from another top-tier company, have a bunch of competing offers, or a very in-demand skill set. Fresh grads are often in a better situation to leverage multiple offers than people with a very small amount of industry experience, actually. Most of this is common knowledge (just read threads on this topic at reddit or quora), but I have first and second hand knowledge as well.
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Feb 3, 2015 03:40
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blah_blah posted:Median salary is around that number, but then when you factor in first year signing bonus (15-20k), target 10-15% of base salary bonus, first year of stock vesting (10-40k), you get to 150k pretty easily. That doesn't even count other benefits such as 401(k) matching, or relocation. I'm very familiar with SF salaries/costs. This is exactly true, what is this bullshit about top-tier CS grads earning $50k/yr out of college? Maybe if you went to ITT Tech and are working in rural Louisiana. And enraged_camel, do you have any data to suggest that the Google/Apple non-compete thing materially affected wages of the sector as a whole?
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Feb 3, 2015 23:29
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disheveled posted:Moreover, the companies hiring CS majors aren't all necessarily looking for CS majors. Most of them are looking for programmers, and as time goes on, you're going to see more people with sufficient programming skills without a CS degree. CS is neither about being able to program, nor being able to design an interface, nor being able to engineer software in a decent way. Most positions will require some balance of theoretical knowledge, software engineering capability, project management capability, and interface design, along with programming skills. Maybe there will be a huge demand for people who just know programming, or just know any single one of those skills, but chances are they're going to have to be supervised by someone who has a degree of understanding of all of them, which is where CS and software engineering grads will continue to have a massive leg up on folks churned out by a programming boot camp (and, after a while, probably won't have to do much coding gruntwork at all!).
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Feb 3, 2015 23:41
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Radbot posted:And enraged_camel, do you have any data to suggest that the Google/Apple non-compete thing materially affected wages of the sector as a whole? I bet that the FTC does.
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Feb 3, 2015 23:46
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I don't think it's really relevant to the broader topic how much programmers can get working for Apple/Google, or how much programmers can expect to get when they are starting, because most people can't be programmers, and if they could, then programmers wouldn't make any money.
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Feb 4, 2015 00:26
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PT6A posted:CS is neither about being able to program, nor being able to design an interface, nor being able to engineer software in a decent way. Most positions will require some balance of theoretical knowledge, software engineering capability, project management capability, and interface design, along with programming skills. Maybe there will be a huge demand for people who just know programming, or just know any single one of those skills, but chances are they're going to have to be supervised by someone who has a degree of understanding of all of them, which is where CS and software engineering grads will continue to have a massive leg up on folks churned out by a programming boot camp (and, after a while, probably won't have to do much coding gruntwork at all!). Thanks to the wonders of third party libraries, anybody can sling code. The trick is doing it right so it doesn't end up a sloppy unmaintainable mess. A company will usually only make that mistake once unless they're spectacularly incompetent. A CS degree doesn't guarantee you understand the intricacies of what you're doing, but it's a good start. As always, though, work experience and job performance is king.
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Feb 4, 2015 04:48
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