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Mr. Nice! posted:I absolutely agree that the chief's treefort is stupid. B-but traditionnnn! 
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Feb 9, 2015 23:35
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germskr posted:Never contested separate messes for nobles. A fun thing I tell newly selected chiefs is "Don't forget there's an E in front of that 7!". It makes them angry. I put in my 1306 today so now it's for real. I also put in a selres application...can't win them all. About the reserves, for retirement does anyone know if they give you one point per active duty day served? That's essentially what me going into the reserves is hinging on. If I retire with 5000 points it's actually a decent retirement (at 60).
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Feb 9, 2015 23:37
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Surprised whatever tradition it stemmed from didn't evolve into saluting them. Hell I'm sure the foundation/history of it wasn't half as dumb and frat like it is now
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Feb 9, 2015 23:43
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I'm pretty sure it's an inferiority complex that manifests itself in manufactured tradition since we basically stole everything else from the Royal Navy.
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Feb 9, 2015 23:48
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the tradition probably goes back to the lash. you wouldn't want to be friends with the guys you were supposed to lash. also, bring back the lash
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Feb 10, 2015 00:16
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PneumonicBook posted:A fun thing I tell newly selected chiefs is "Don't forget there's an E in front of that 7!". It makes them angry. Yup, one point per active duty day.
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Feb 10, 2015 00:25
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Sir Lucius posted:the tradition probably goes back to the lash. you wouldn't want to be friends with the guys you were supposed to lash. also, bring back the lash only if we can bring back rum and sodomy
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Feb 10, 2015 00:30
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Stultus Maximus posted:Yup, one point per active duty day. Well that's good. And also bad.
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Feb 10, 2015 00:34
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Sir Lucius posted:the tradition probably goes back to the lash. you wouldn't want to be friends with the guys you were supposed to lash. also, bring back the lash Bosun mates did the whipping. They ate with the crew and at times had to whip each other as a matter of course. Closest thing to a chief back in ye old age of sail would be what they called a warrant officer(specialist) or a master(good enough sailor to run a ship but not connected enough to become an officer). Ate with each other and junior officers(all other offices but the captain or acting captain).
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Feb 10, 2015 01:51
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This past drill weekend I had a 7 hour training on ensuring that my junior sailors do not drink and drive on the 28 days a month that I do not see them. selres.txt
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Feb 10, 2015 02:03
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KetTarma posted:This past drill weekend I had a 7 hour training on ensuring that my junior sailors do not drink and drive on the 28 days a month that I do not see them. That sounds grand! I can't wait.
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Feb 10, 2015 02:03
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PneumonicBook posted:That sounds grand! I can't wait. Its not a bad gig. Show up, gently caress off for 8 hours, go home, show up, gently caress off for 8 hours, go home. Collect money, pay it all back for TRICARE-lovely-edition. Once a year spend either 2 weeks at a school or 2 weeks at a place where people don't want you to be so they ignore you as best they can and just have you clean something or sit around until 4pm. Also everyone around you is somehow super motivated about SERVING COUNTRY BY DOING NKO COURSES OORAH Every month you have GMT on either sexual harassment, drugs, alcohol, or hazing. If youre high ranking, you go to meetings where people talk about metrics, rankings, and accomplishments as though everyone under them is not currently engaged in Candy Crush or Facebook. It is the silliest job ever but I do it because SOMEONE has to stand in front of a room of people and read a Wikipedia article on the Battle of Midway for the 3rd time this year. (The last training I had to give was reading some random COs bio/resume off of their unit's webpage to a group of 20 people as training. I have no idea why or how it counted as "Navy Heritage Training" but  said to do it)
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Feb 10, 2015 02:31
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germskr posted:Never contested separate messes for nobles. You can make anything sound ridiculous by oversimplifying it (although you have a decent argument wrt the Chief's mess). I'm with MML, this is much worse than LCS chat.
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Feb 10, 2015 02:41
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KetTarma posted:Its not a bad gig. Show up, gently caress off for 8 hours, go home, show up, gently caress off for 8 hours, go home. Collect money, pay it all back for TRICARE-lovely-edition. How lovely is the reservist version of tricare? That sounds like the most ridiculous poo poo ever but I could probably do 380 days of it for money when I'm 60. I'm legit scared of going to a NOC where everyone is super motivated and there's more dumb navy poo poo, but it really sucks being in for ten years without getting something (other than my kids college mostly paid for). I think my decision will kind of hinge on how my sleep apnea test goes. I've got twelve months before I'm out so there's no rush.
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Feb 10, 2015 03:06
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What else are we supposed to bitch about? I'm trying to get an ARCOM here 
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Feb 10, 2015 03:14
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vulturesrow posted:You can make anything sound ridiculous by oversimplifying it (although you have a decent argument wrt the Chief's mess). I'm with MML, this is much worse than LCS chat. You honor me with your words, m'lord. Just a couple of last minute straw man arguments- I think you're in aviation? From my understanding the O to E relationship there is pretty relaxed and unlike most commands in the Navy the nobles are nice to the serfs and generally speaking the serfs are nice to the nobles. I have a buddy in the Army who flies Kiowas who says the same thing- he gets high fives instead of salutes. Point is, if we did this draconian military style of you will only speak when spoken to; eat and socialize separately while at work then where would the motivation be for the mechanic to do his best to keep a pilot alive? I'm not knocking mechanics and saying that they won't do their best even if they didn't know the pilot, but Army guys says he gets priority when something is wrong with his helo, among other things. He'll also buy his dudes a pizza and they chill in the hangar eating slices. I know thousands of years of warfare has generally seen separation between O and E even during dining, but imagine then the best warriors history has ever seen- yep I'm pulling it- Team guys. They're a pretty lean, mean fighting machine. They actually go into harms way versus 95% of the Navy and from the junior guy on his first push to the saltiest frog there rarely is the kind of separation the fleet harps on its people. Officers and enlisted are on a first name basis with each other- some dudes from T3 called their LTJG "the lieutenant of the most junior grade XXXXXXX," and some Marine almost had a heart attack until the LTJG calmed him down. Point is, they do things together that would make regular Navy poo poo a brick but they still manage to get the job done and are a professional fighting force. I guess you could point to selection is much harder or perhaps point to the shared adversity they go through in BUD/s and such but it is one of the only training pipelines across all branches that puts officers and enlisted together. Anyway what do I know, I'm just an E5 who is reupping for another 3 against my better judgement because my next set of orders will set me up on the outside. 
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Feb 10, 2015 03:25
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germskr posted:
This is a good idea if it will set you up.
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Feb 10, 2015 03:44
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PneumonicBook posted:How lovely is the reservist version of tricare? It's basically TRICARE standard. You pay co-pays and it doesnt cover civilian bills fully. I just got a 250$ bill for physical therapy for surgery from an injury I got while on drill. Go figure, TRICARE refuses to pay it even though I have a LoD saying I'm supposed to get 100% coverage. I have to file an appeal and I'm imagining that'll take a year. I've had about a thousand dollars of bills they haven't covered so far. Oh well, at least my wife gets her super expensive medicine for free on base. Here is a legit problem I've seen that is also selres.txt: Our old LPO is an awesome guy that had an awesome job making six figures doing technical work on rotating shiftwork. Everything was fine for years until we got a new chief that resented him. That chief worked in a factory on the assembly line and I think was jealous that his LPO quadrupled his yearly income. Chief constantly poo poo on the guy every time he had to miss drill due to his work schedule. Chief stated that "the only reason to miss drill is a death in the family." Eventually, the chief replaced our LPO with someone else that outright didnt want the job. About a year later, our awesome ex-LPO that did 75% of the paperwork for the unit has gone inactive and now our paperwork process has fallen to utter poo poo because the one guy that both knew how to and loved doing the work isn't there anymore. I feel really bad for ex-LPO because he was super motivated and Loved The Navy. Now our E-6 leadership is a guy that's a few months from retiring, the current LPO that wants to turn it over, and me. I'm 3 months from being able to hop on corporate healthcare and will probably be routing an IRR-transfer chit either in May or around Christmas once I sort out the financials. Another problem: We have several super motivated E-5s that love going on AT because it pays better than working as a cashier or whatever. Several of them are approaching HYT because their rates are downsizing and E-6 promotion is 0 people per year. Their choices are to either crossrate or be forced out. The rates they're eligible to crossrate into are all overmanned also. They get told every month that they only have 12 months left to find a new rate but every month CMSID tells them there's nowhere for them to go. They ask me for advice and all I can tell them is to study and hope their rate opens up or to retake the ASVAB and hope for a high enough score to get something that's open. Hell, I'm in an overmanned rate too and our advancements are between 6 and 8 a year.
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Feb 10, 2015 04:35
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In other news, Netflix added Spartacus this week. 10/10 best depiction of BUD/s yet
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Feb 10, 2015 04:45
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KetTarma posted:Jealous chief being dumb, no quotas anywhere That all sounds lovely, I suppose it's a dream to go active from the reserves. Can you submit an irr transfer chit whenever you want? How long are you on the irr hook for? Edit: I should probably just stay pming you. PneumonicBook fucked around with this message at 05:04 on Feb 10, 2015 |
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Feb 10, 2015 04:56
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PneumonicBook posted:That all sounds lovely, I suppose it's a dream to go active from the reserves. Can you submit an irr transfer chit whenever you want? How long are you on the irr hook for? As long as you didn't take money to affiliate in the RC from AD, you can pretty much go IRR when you want* or just stop showing up and get processed out. *YMMV And as Ket pointed out, SELRES really comes down to your rate and where your chains 'give a gently caress' meter is at. If you have a rate that can actually do work on the drill weekend (IDC, admin, etc.) it isn't as soul sucking. If you're in a shipboard rate, you'll be doing GMTs, being medically ready, and sitting in a classroom doing jack-all. Edit: Also everyone should either get out or go reserve. 10pm beer and pizza for National Pizza Day after class is good stuff. Nick Soapdish fucked around with this message at 05:27 on Feb 10, 2015 |
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Feb 10, 2015 05:17
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I'll probably go Army weekend warrior noble after I get out, that way I fulfill the family legacy in the laziest way possible, can still look down on the great unwashed one weekend a month, and can carry a sense of entitlement over every other civilian and former enlisted vet I'll ever work with.
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Feb 10, 2015 05:38
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I think it's funny like the history of officers is that they were literate educated upper class folk with money who could buy their own ship or w/e and everyone else was legit peasants. Everything stems from this "speak when spoke to only" etc poo poo. Like they're loving royalty (I guess then they were in a way) So the Military keeps all those traditions. I remember reading the blue jackets manual and it said some bs like "but unlike other countries American Military officers are educated instead and that's valued and they're not just upper class folk!" I remember our department head telling us about back in the day in his Navy (he was in for like 14 years lol) it was like the above and you could only speak when spoken to and had to request permission for everything like getting married (not a bad idea imo) Then when you have the high ranking officers and poo poo coming around work places you clean forever roll out the red carpet and kiss their toosh like they're the king of England. Then you're forced to stand in a formation for them and ask them dumb questions then get yelled at for asking said question. My favorite story was from a buddy in Lejeune. I guess they had a visit from the commandant or some poo poo and spent weeks beforehand picking up pine cones. Some lower enlisted dude in the crowd asked "sir do you not like pine cones or something?" "Uh, no, I have nothing against pine cones why?" "Because for the past god drat 2 weeks I've been picking up pine cones and I thought maybe you didn't like them or something" PneumonicBook posted:How lovely is the reservist version of tricare? Just do what everyone else does and don't pay for it then spend your reserve weekends in the local MTF ER for chronic back pain and bronchitis then be surprised when you get a bill Nostalgia4Dogges fucked around with this message at 05:55 on Feb 10, 2015 |
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Feb 10, 2015 05:44
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"Boy do I hate pine cones. Why, just the sight of those devils gets me steamed!"
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Feb 10, 2015 06:16
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germskr posted:You honor me with your words, m'lord. I think your SEAL example probably isn't the best one. The lines are blurred because of the nature of the job. It's not really a fair comparison in my opinion. As for aviation, I agree with your assessment. Yes I'm biased. I think you are conflating treating enlisted folks like the people they are with things like separate messes. I don't have much experience with other officer communities so if they aren't good at that it's not because of things like separate messes, it's because they are populated with shitheads who don't understand what being a leader is. I used to do things like buy my division a bunch of sodas and munchies and stuff when they were doing a really tough maintenance job. I played basketball and other sports with them when the opportunity arose. I think some of it is the fact that as aviators we are really focused on the operational part of our job and we are pretty in tune with how important our sailors are to making that happen. I think SWOs for example get bogged down in the minutiae of their jobs (because their superiors emphasize stupid crap like that) and the leadership piece of the pie gets short shrift. Carrier squadrons are also relatively small units which makes that style of leadership a little easier. We still have separate messes and all that jazz. Now I do agree that having separate messes and all that might reinforce elitism among those that don't really "get it." I hate that sort of attitude. But I don't think having a separate mess is the cause, at worst its a symptom. But I do think fraternization can be really bad and I've seen it really have a negative effect on a squadron. Having separate messes helps mitigate that to a degree and its good to be able to sit down and relax for a bit without having to worry about appearances or saying the wrong thing, etc. That all said, I think it's good to questions our customs and traditions and get rid of stuff that doesn't make sense any more. I'd definitely be comfortable with less of a divide between officers and enlisted. I'm not sure of the best way to go about doing that.
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Feb 10, 2015 06:29
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vulturesrow posted:
Enlisted pilots. Then they could bro out with the pilot bros and bridge the divide. Also fire all SWOs. They are beyond help. Edit:In reality, small steps at a time to get rid of the elitism. It used to be much more necessary when the enlisted were literally uneducated farmers who might be able to load cannons without oversight Stop sucking off COs and flag officers quite as hard and hopefully it trickles down. First, fire SWOs tho. Laranzu fucked around with this message at 07:29 on Feb 10, 2015 |
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Feb 10, 2015 07:25
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Laranzu posted:Enlisted pilots. Then they could bro out with the pilot bros and bridge the divide. There was a CWO Pilot Program for awhile that wrapped up a couple years ago. Can't say I have ever met a Flying Warrant but seemed like a pretty good gig if you could have gotten it.
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Feb 10, 2015 07:37
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Nostalgia4Dicks posted:I think it's funny like the history of officers is that they were literate educated upper class folk with money who could buy their own ship or w/e and everyone else was legit peasants. Everything stems from this "speak when spoke to only" etc poo poo. Like they're loving royalty (I guess then they were in a way) http://www.duffelblog.com/2014/04/admiral-cleanliness-check/ vulturesrow posted:I think your SEAL example probably isn't the best one. The lines are blurred because of the nature of the job. It's not really a fair comparison in my opinion. As for aviation, I agree with your assessment. Yes I'm biased. I think you are conflating treating enlisted folks like the people they are with things like separate messes. I don't have much experience with other officer communities so if they aren't good at that it's not because of things like separate messes, it's because they are populated with shitheads who don't understand what being a leader is. I used to do things like buy my division a bunch of sodas and munchies and stuff when they were doing a really tough maintenance job. I played basketball and other sports with them when the opportunity arose. I think some of it is the fact that as aviators we are really focused on the operational part of our job and we are pretty in tune with how important our sailors are to making that happen. I think SWOs for example get bogged down in the minutiae of their jobs (because their superiors emphasize stupid crap like that) and the leadership piece of the pie gets short shrift. Carrier squadrons are also relatively small units which makes that style of leadership a little easier. We still have separate messes and all that jazz. Now I do agree that having separate messes and all that might reinforce elitism among those that don't really "get it." I hate that sort of attitude. But I don't think having a separate mess is the cause, at worst its a symptom. But I do think fraternization can be really bad and I've seen it really have a negative effect on a squadron. Having separate messes helps mitigate that to a degree and its good to be able to sit down and relax for a bit without having to worry about appearances or saying the wrong thing, etc. See, I have the opposite view. I've seen way more aviation officers take the attitude that they're in the Navy to fly planes and dealing with the enlisted is why we have chiefs. When I took over my division on the carrier, they were loving shocked when I showed up to the ship before 0700, was at daily quarters, and actually took an interest and got to know my sailors (especially by showing up and working with them during daily cleaning quarters) instead of hiding out in my stateroom or the department office like all the 13xx officers.
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Feb 10, 2015 13:29
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Selling leave is the bad option, right?
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Feb 10, 2015 14:57
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Pandasmores posted:Selling leave is the bad option, right? Yes. Unless you think $0.30 is more valuable than a day off.
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Feb 10, 2015 15:03
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Stultus Maximus posted:See, I have the opposite view. I've seen way more aviation officers take the attitude that they're in the Navy to fly planes and dealing with the enlisted is why we have chiefs. When I took over my division on the carrier, they were loving shocked when I showed up to the ship before 0700, was at daily quarters, and actually took an interest and got to know my sailors (especially by showing up and working with them during daily cleaning quarters) instead of hiding out in my stateroom or the department office like all the 13xx officers. I'm guessing that most of your 13xx were P3 guys with a sprinkle of helo guys. They are special cases.  In all seriousness I think your experience lends credence to my point that the problem isn't necessarily things like separate messes but just poor individual leadership. I know in the SWO community they pay a lot of lip service to leadership when you are a DIVO but in my admittedly limited experience with SWOs that really isn't borne out in practice. Like I said I think it is mostly a result of all the other stuff that is put on your plate as a SWO. As a carrier aviator though all my COs p placed a heavy emphasis on taking care of sailors and we were expected to get out to the shops and take an interest in what they were doing regardless of whether we were a DIVO or not.
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Feb 10, 2015 15:18
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I wonder if ADM Harris ever read that article... while we're on hawaii check this nonsense out. http://freebeacon.com/national-security/hawaiian-independence-movement-attracts-chinese-interest/ Arione fucked around with this message at 15:23 on Feb 10, 2015 |
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Feb 10, 2015 15:21
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Laranzu posted:Enlisted pilots. Then they could bro out with the pilot bros and bridge the divide. Who else but SWOs are insanely masochistic enough to do what they do, though?
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Feb 10, 2015 15:38
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There are good SWOs out there. I like to think I was one and I know a bunch still in. There are a lot of shitheads, though. My PTSD baby-SWO friend and the people that would rat out other JOs to the skipper come to mind off the top of my head.
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Feb 10, 2015 16:07
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Mr. Nice! posted:There are good SWOs out there. I like to think I was one and I know a bunch still in. There are a lot of shitheads, though. My PTSD baby-SWO friend and the people that would rat out other JOs to the skipper come to mind off the top of my head. Yes there are. I always give guys the benefit of the doubt but I think you would agree the community as a whole probably needs some fixing. One of the things I have witnessed is that a lot of you guys end up doing stuff the goat locker should be doing. That kind of boggles my mind because by and large I've been really happy with the Chiefs I've worked with from aviation rates. Other rates not so much.
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Feb 10, 2015 16:18
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The mess on most surface ships I've dealt with is ineffective as a whole. LASTSHIP's was completely useless. The wardroom drove our INSURV because the goat locker was worthless. It's an issue with the current generation of chiefs, imo. Basically, COs at sea have very little actual input directly into who they want to be chiefs out of their group of first classes. There was a similar problem with the retention boards when I was in. If they went to every captain at sea and said "give me 5 bodies to cut and tell me who of your first classes needs to be a chief" and actually followed that, we'd be in better shape. Instead you have a system that is distanced from actual performance and is based upon whatever the nebulous ideals of that particular board wants by looking at a tiny powerpoint slide on each person. Give captains at sea more power in deciding these things and you'll see a stronger goat locker. Right now the mess is full of paper chiefs who arguably have no reason to be there in a lot of cases. I know that we had two E8s and maybe 5 E7s ship wide that were worth actually keeping. Others were useless, incompetent, cowards, or some fantastic mix of the bunch. EDIT: In aviation there seems to be a larger gulf between what the Os do and the chiefs do because of the nature of the job. Pilots are supposed to fly. The divisional work is secondary. Running my divisions was my primary job. I had to be intimately involved because no one else was. Mr. Nice! fucked around with this message at 17:19 on Feb 10, 2015 |
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Feb 10, 2015 17:17
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Mr. Nice! posted:The mess on most surface ships I've dealt with is ineffective as a whole. LASTSHIP's was completely useless. The wardroom drove our INSURV because the goat locker was worthless. Well SWO JOs have a lot of stuff do as well and arguably the Chiefs should be handling a lot of the low level aspects of running a division. In aviation it's unavoidable because I'm not available for many hours at a time when I'm planning, briefing, flying, and debriefing.
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Feb 10, 2015 17:31
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Exactly. The aviation chiefs necessarily have to be more in charge. The surface chiefs mostly like to hang out in their treefort. When we stumbled on our first TMI (the first TMI ever iirc), the admiral came onboard to see what was up. He spent about 5 minutes in the wardroom. He walked in, saw what we were doing, and saw that we were all taking steps to correct the deficiencies that we had found. I built an auto updating tracker system in excel that is still flying around a ton of surface ships for INSURV preps that he loved. He then went down to the mess and proceeded to rip their asses for about an hour. They looked browbeaten and weary after that meeting. It didn't help, though. We still had to drive the entire operation from upstairs.
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Feb 10, 2015 17:44
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Mr. Nice! posted:Exactly. The aviation chiefs necessarily have to be more in charge. The surface chiefs mostly like to hang out in their treefort. Sounds like s vicious cycle where the chiefs have become accustomed to the wardroom shouldering the load and just sit back and let it happen.
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Feb 10, 2015 18:35
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Well, although the mess as a whole was pretty much useless, there were a couple of chiefs that basically took over entire other divisions that didn't have a divo and the current LCPO was useless. There are still a handful of really loving good chiefs out there in the surface world. The ones I knew were just as dissatisfied with the state of the mess as we were.
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Feb 10, 2015 19:19
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