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Laphroaig
Feb 6, 2004

Drinking Smoke
Dinosaur Gum

First Bass posted:

hahaha holy poo poo this is bizarre on so many levels

It also reminds me of that comic strip with the piss forest that I can't seem to find, someone here has it I'm sure

paladins are natural lightning rods for the best/worst grog stories

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Laphroaig
Feb 6, 2004

Drinking Smoke
Dinosaur Gum
Welcome to the new Mustard Smuggling:
--

While killing an ogre for the local Baron for a quick pickup of 100gp, the party offs the ogre’s buddy, a nasty little goblin. This guy was a real jerk. Once he was good and dead – the fighter stabbed the goblin extra for good measure – the party did what adventuring parties do. They rolled the bodies. Among the handfuls of copper pieces, a few unusable weapons and a convenient cache of crossbow bolts, the party discovers the goblin was wearing a pair of Boots of Striding and Springing.

For whatever reason, the party decides it doesn’t want to keep the boots. Perhaps it is a matter of taste. The style is out of fashion. The size is too small. Also, as magic items go, boots of striding and springing are on the low-end of the interesting scale. Regardless, the party takes the boots to the nearby peaceful peasant market town to unload them as one does with unused magic items.

The local cordwainer won’t accept the boots of striding and springing. The cordwainer, a member of the local shoemaker’s guild in good standing, doesn’t recognize the boots as magic but he does recognize them as a different make than other boots made in the region. Good quality, good make, but they’re not his nor one of his fellow guildmates so he cannot resell them. He is not authorized to buy and sell foreign goods and if they’re left in his shop, he’ll get found out by the guild for hoarding strange makes of highly unauthorized footwear. There’s a price list. He likes being part of the guild, see. They help him and his family out when he’s down. His father was part of this guild. His grandfather was a grandmaster of the cordwainers of the peaceful peasant village. And he doesn’t want any trouble. Besides, he only pays in script and not in coinage. The party needs to move along.

The local merchant doesn’t recognize the boots, either, but he recognizes them as magic immediately on inspecting them on the counter in his small shop. The wizard’s craft mark is on the inner sole. See that right there? These are wizarding shoes. Great magic in wizarding shoes. The merchant’s guild in this region isn’t permitted in its charter to resell strange, foreign wizarding shoes. They banged this charter out so the merchant can sell commodity goods here and the Baron stays over there where the town would like them and the Baron, well, he takes interest in these sorts of things. Maybe the party took them off a wizard? That’s a problem right there, too. The merchant can’t pay for strange foreign wizarding things in his shop. Brings nothing but trouble. Besides, the town mostly works on script, ledgers, loaning and mutual debt. The merchant can only pay in Bob the Baker’s bread. Do you like bread? Bob’s bread? Fantastic.

  • Forcing the merchant to accept the boots unearths the hard reality that the Merchant’s Guild of the town is also the Judge’s Guild, the local Mafioso Guild, and the Government Guild. This merchant? He’s also the Mayor. And the Head Judge. The merchant will call in his friends and his friends will make sure the party doesn’t sell no weird, foreign, and possibly evil wizarding shoes in this town. We won’t kill you right here and now because of the ogre business but maybe it’s time to go. The locals are not much when it comes to fighting but leaving an entire town murdered over a pair of boots – there’s a slippery slope to neutral evilhood. The party’s cleric might be irked.

  • Getting the local Baron involved brings up all kinds of ugly questions like: “Why are the lower folk walking around with a pair of magic boots?“ And then the magic boots will belong to the Baron because he needs to go on campaign and he doesn’t have magic boots. Now he does. Yours. Not a great plan. Great guy until someone shows up with some magic items and then not such a nice guy any more.

  • Barding up the merchant or pulling out some merchant background can get a bit of “I know a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy.” Maybe there’s something the merchant needs for a bit of favor. Besides, the guy trades in favors all day. The local merchant is not of any help but there might be an upstream reseller. Here’s a bit of a written introduction and a rough schedule for a Faire that moves around a number of cities. Nomenally that faire sells cloth but an entrepreneaur can unload a pair of boots if the buyer is right and the place is right and the money is right.

  • Calling down on God or Gods is a thing that works because if there is anything a merchant needs, it’s a blessing to help him move those more mundane items in his shop. But he still doesn’t handle foreign magic goods and he can only pay in what he owes to other townspeople.

  • Cutting the inner soles out of the boots to remove the wizard’s mark and leaving them with the local non-guild affiliated peddler with his jingle jangle wagon of assorted goods for a few copper will get rid of them quick but these boots are worth some serious scratch. Always an option but no adventuring party is going to get rich off filing the serial numbers off magic items and unloading them on movable consignment stores.

No one in the town is going to buy the boots the local head cleric explains to the party on their way (hopefully) out of town. And no one wants them. These are good people. Godly people. People who tithe regularly to their local Temple. What the local head cleric, who is one of those nice guys affiliated with one of the local Gods of home and hearth, wants is the party to take the boots and leave. They will bring nothing but instability to this nice little community. If there’s anything the Gods want, its stability.

A group of towns who want to become cities situated on ancient trade roads hold a rotating open market. What it is, who hosts, and where it is held depends on the time of year. The external appearance of the Faire is selling well-known commodity goods: one week is cloth, another is spices, another leather and other durable goods. Merchants travel over incredible distances marked with the occasional Random Encounter to make it here to unload from all over the known world and over it all a rich and powerful Lord who makes it happen with the guarantees of security and law. It’s his Law but his Law is he gets his tax. As long as no one sets the entire town on fire and brings the Lord into it, he’s fine with whatever nonsense happens.

No one sells magic items in the open here, either, but the party can lay hands on some seriously upgraded pieces of mundane equipment if necessary. At night, behind the tents and in the bars, people settle their accounts and the interesting goods exchange hands.

By knowing a guy, having a letter of introduction, getting the right people drunk, surviving a few fist fights, and generally running around depraved, it’s possible to find the magic items broker. The party will bump into a bunch of other guys, too. Nothing is ever simple on the quest to unload a pair of slightly magical boots:

Someone from one of the Wizard Craft Guilds is attending the Faire looking for the same sets of background deal brokers to unload their magic items into circulation. (How else do they make their way into dungeons and random treasure tables?) The Wizard Craft Guilds aren’t like a small peaceful peasant village Shoemaker’s Guild. These are guys with money, muscle, and agents to move their merchandise. And these aren’t the Wizards themselves, of course – no self-respecting Wizard is going to come out of his tower to sell at some Faire. That would mean getting dirty. This is a broker’s broker with his own set of thugs. And they want to know why this party is selling strange, foreign magic boots with a different wizard’s mark than their Guild into circulation.

  • Is the party now magic boot-making competition?
  • Is there a collect and resell effort from foreign points going on to dilute the list prices of magic items?
  • Are the local wizards of the Wizard Craft Guild being scammed?

Maybe what the party needs is a visit from the broker’s local group of armed friends, in the cover of darkness, behind the bar. Because while the party may not have to go, the boots certainly do.

The black market gets whiff there’s some action in the magic items area and, unlike the rubes back home, these are guys who know how to move magic items and get them into the hands of discerning dealers. Sure the party might be running from the thugs behind the Wizards Craft Guild but here’s a friend – really! a friend! – who only wants to get the best price for the boots for his quiet, discerning client. This is safe. This is clean. No Guilds involved at all except for Ours but you don’t need to know about that. This will move the boots and sell them to a discrete buyer. The Necromatic Arch Lich and his Legions of Terrifying Evil who simply need high quality footwear as they trample on the necks of the local populance. You know how it is.

Running amok away from the thieves’s guild and the wizard craft guild, the party draws the attention of the local Merchant’s Guild who both try to turn a blind eye to all sorts of shenanigans but if inns start getting burnt to the ground, they’re both going to get wary. Luckily for the party, the local Merchant’s Guild is on a whole different playing field than the local Merchant’s Guild of the small town. These guys finance entire armies for rich patrons. They have their own set of mercantile laws that have nothing whatsoever to do with local Law, or the Lord’s Law, or laws from the local Temple. These guys are judge, jury, executioner, and the entire local government. We leave that for now, because the Merchant’s Guild wants to see if the party lives. If they do, there might be something in it for them.

And after lighting some bar on fire while running out, the party hooks up with their guy. They have wizard guild thugs after them. Black market mafia thugs after them after breaking their deal to sell the boots. They got beer all over their new leathers. Letters of introduction are exchanged. In a room in quite another inn across town, the magic item broker looks at the boots, looks at the wizards mark in the sole, and he tells you his fee for moving the boots is 37%. At a list price of 5500gp, he’s going to take a little over 2000gp from the party for the price of taking those boots off the party’s hands. Good magic item laundering service is expensive.

In a time of craft guilds, merchant guilds, organizational guilds, nobility, and wizards in towers protected by armies of thugs, it’s hard to move foreign merchandise. No one wants to accept the risk of explaining where the item came from. And all the rich guilds have their form of muscle and protection. This is all to say, one can get mileage out of a pair of boots rolled off a dead goblin. And maybe in the end it is easiest just to pull the soles and unload them on the peddler. It’s cheaper that way.

Laphroaig
Feb 6, 2004

Drinking Smoke
Dinosaur Gum
Frankly I can't tell which of these I like the most. :spergin:

Its like the most masturbatory, groggy railroading I have ever seen. The fawning comments section though is what seals the deal.

http://projectmultiplexer.com/2015/02/01/murder-hobos-and-the-supply-curve-of-evil/ posted:

A party of more or less good-aligned murder hobos gets wind of some organized slavery going on in a far off land – something vague about fish people, industrialized farming and pearls. The slavery operation aims are relatively immaterial to the party. Slavers are over there and smashing them in the face is a generally good-alignment thing to do. The party hops on the first boat to guaranteed adventure and loot. Zoom!

For this adventure, the GM (who is also an economist and is, therefore, unbelievably sadistic and evil) assumes the demand for the pearls remains a relative constant – it does not suddenly dip or climb. Whoever is buying pearls will continue to buy pearls at the same pace. Those farming pearls will have a constant demand for slaves to farm and fill that constant supply of pearl buyers. She also assumes the price for fish people slaves into the industrialized pearl farming operation is elastic. Either a sudden change in supply or an increase in demand will see a rapid delta upward in slave prices.

She writes these facts on a convenient 3×5 note card.

Once landed in the far off land after an exciting encounter with pirates (required by law), the party debates how to deal with the massive slavery operation going on. They come up with three options: kill slavers, slave redemption, or kill master slave dealers. They try the first one since it is the most straight forward and level comparable.

Killing the slavers, who are largely hobgoblins to reflect parity with the party’s level, is, for a while, a satisfying experience with party-level XP and treasure. The party jumps slavers with advantage, they have exciting fights, slavers die, and the murder hobos roll the bodies for loot. A couple of fish people slaves go running off into the waste – free-ish for now. Total victory, right?

These slavers are only feeding slaves into the greater system of slave-run farm ownership a handful at a time. These guys are small fries. And, whenever the party kills one slaver it gives another entrepreneurial hobgoblin a new day job. The party back of the napkin calculates they need to exhaust the entire hobgoblin race before killing slavers one at a time is an economical slave-ending practice in this corner of the world. This activity is too small and localized to have impact on supply or demand. It does, however, line the party’s pockets with some small magical trinkets and a magic pair of boots they will somehow unload.

Several levels later, the bard gets a better idea. The party will find the slave dealers and exchange some of their hard earned loot from rolling slavers and set slaves free. What is better than directly freeing slaves from the penury of pearl farming slavery? And with minimal combat? Guys, the bard says, this plan is awesome.

The party exercises their now established contacts and has some interesting adventures with the local underground and Thieves’ Guild (hope the party Thief isn’t operating without a local license or they’re going to have words…). They fight some interesting monsters in some sewers because why wouldn’t the exotic city in the far off land have sewers, and finally discovers a hidden slave market. The party bids on as many slaves as they can afford, buys them, and then releases them into the fish people slave Underground Railroad.

Look! A great heroic deed! Slaves freed! Slavery solved! Someone buy the bard a drink! They’ll just roll slavers, buy back any other slaves, and drain the supply from the farmers!

Except now the party has introduced a new strong thread of demand into a system with an otherwise constant and predictable slave demand. Slave prices are inherently elastic (says the GM) and until the system reaches a new murder hobo induced equilibrium, slave prices shoot up and up and up. Incentivized by the climbing worth of their kidnapped victims, more hobgoblins become slavers to fill demand at a nearly 2-to-1 rate. Entire fish people villages are torched and their populations forced into captivity. The problem becomes immeasurably worse.

Good news, though – it might be possible to kill the whole hobgoblin race!

Slave dealers send happy fliers for slave auctions direct to their murder hobo inn! The more the murder hobos buy slaves to set them free, the more the lower echelon of the economy blows out trying to meet that demand. And those original pearl farmers still need their replacement slaves at the same rates as before so they buy their replacements at the higher prices and then adjust their prices upward. The entire economy of this small country reacts to more money washing around by hiking prices on staples. Behold, the murder hobos are living agents of inflation!

(This causes a knock-on effect of passing this price down to the pearls which angers the traders who pass the price hikes to their customers but screw those guys. They’re just wizards. Right? Angry wizards don’t have any future bad political effects, right?)

Now slavery is more lucrative than ever before. More evil humans and humanoids are participating in the wider economy. Everyone is charging a bit more for everything. Good going there, bard. Why do we even listen to this guy? All his plans are bad.

While waiting for the slavery economy to level out, the murder hobos go to work on their third, and best plan: killing the slave dealers and choke off supply. If the pearl farmers cannot buy their slaves from slave markets then surely this whole land will come to its senses, right?

These slave dealer guys, the murder hobos discover in the course of the adventure, are like taking down Mafia bosses – they have enough scratch to hire themselves some serious protection and they’re not afraid to use it. They’ve built themselves little empires on the backs of slaves and their clients, the farmers. As prices shoot up, the percentage of take the dealers extract from the sales is going up. The slave dealers are making serious bank on the murder hobos.

The GM runs the party through a pretty thrilling adventure. Suddenly, the party has a mysterious benefactor who sends them directions to a slave dealer stronghold – a big, heavily armed manor house. The party makes plans. They ready spells. They break into the house in the dead of night and they take down a slave dealer in a serious boss fight with tons of cinematics. And that guy, he has major loot in his basement. Magic scrolls up to here.

It’s when the murder hobos leave with their arms full of slave dealer loot they discover their mysterious benefactor was another slave dealer wanting to consolidate his position*. The slave market is now making so much money the dealers are incentivized to gank each other through their favorite weapon of choice – the ANSI standard good aligned, heroic wandering murder hobo. Now the mysterious benefactor picks up all the dead dealer’s clients and slave supply. Maybe he’ll hire all these new slaver Hobgoblins to fill out his ranks, too.

Better yet, because supply will take a momentary hit while the slave dealers adjust to the new reality on the ground, slaves will now become even more expensive until the economy, once again, hits equilibrium.

Murder hobos are agents of economic chaos.

The supply curve and the base elasticity of the price of slave fish people screws everyone equally. Looking at the tally, the murder hobos have:

Killed some slavers and taken their stuff (good)
Killed a slave dealer who was totally evil (super good)
Set some slaves free (good)
Incentivized more slavers to re-capture all those slaves set free (bad)
Pushed up the value of slaves (pretty bad)
Helped to consolidate possibly warring slave dealers (really bad)
And walked off with armloads of loot (the best part!)
Remember the note about the GM being evil, above? The GM is evil. Someone give her a cookie.

What’s actually the solution here? Killing the low level slavers is fun but long-term ineffective. Buying slaves and setting them free makes things worse. Killing slave dealers feels effective but makes the remaining slave dealers even stronger.

Clearly, the rot is at the top. The problem is the local government who allows all this evil to flourish with its tacit and ineffectual approval. We need an armed military solution says the Paladin of Vengeance. Only applied force at the top and a strong hand of wise guidance will free the fish people from their chains of slavery.

And the murder hobos return to this blighted inflation-riddled land 10 levels later with their army and their enormous magic items. The local government never has a chance. Vengeance is meted out with a black armored fist. Those government officials not executed by the good murder hobo party are torn apart by the citizens in the streets. The party declares themselves the Just and Wise Rulers of this Blighted Land. Now, dammit, there will be freedom.

The murder hobos outlaw slavery. They free the fish people. The murder hobo’s army and police force round up the slave dealers, throws some into horrible dungeons and chase others out of the country. The pearl farmers must now provide the fish people a wage of some sort or face the same fate. They tax the pearls to pay for their righteousness. Freedom is imposed. You, people, will be free.

The price for pearls shoots up astronomically.

Sure, now, the murder hobos have to contend with an angry enemy navy made of pearl buyers on their coast, pearl price wars from other neighboring countries who allow slavery, and internal uprising from both the farmers and the private armies of the ex-slave dealers operating under ground. Oh yes, and remember those pissed off wizards? Well, here they are. Pissed off. The bill came due.

This will work itself out with a little heavy handed dictatorship, military occupation, unlawful price controls, and a ruthless smothering of discontent. This is nothing a Paladin as the new head of Government cannot handle. Paladin’s are Good. This is for the good of this terrible land. Someone get that bard out of here.

And the fish people? They live forever in horrible apartheid poverty. But at least they have their freedom.

The party totally prevails over the tyranny of the Supply Curve of Evil. Level up!

Laphroaig
Feb 6, 2004

Drinking Smoke
Dinosaur Gum

Laphroaig posted:

Frankly I can't tell which of these I like the most. :spergin:

Its like the most masturbatory, groggy railroading I have ever seen. The fawning comments section though is what seals the deal.

Oh yeah and I forgot to point out but if you word replace "Fish people" with "blacks" and "pearls" with "cotton" you get a wonderful crazy racist diatribe about how Supply Side economics means the Civil War was actually the War of Murder Hobo Aggression.

Laphroaig
Feb 6, 2004

Drinking Smoke
Dinosaur Gum
:smaug: :biotruths:

At a young age, dragons will just naturally gravitate towards amassing huge piles of gold.

I don't see what the problem is. Look at Orcs. It says "Mostly Evil" right there on the stat-block. In the same manner, a Graphics Designer (someone who makes a series of Graphic Images) is going to be "Mostly Female".

Interior designers you say? Oh, I wouldn't know, I designed the rooms of my house using entirely 10 foot measurements, its an architectural style I call Gygaxian Naturalism.

Laphroaig
Feb 6, 2004

Drinking Smoke
Dinosaur Gum

Chaltab posted:

Also note that, according to this, he intentionally put his party against a L+21 encounter and was disgusted when they won. So by his own admission he was trying to TPK them.

He's never played 4E before and is just lying about it. He read some crazy thing online about how tough 1st level 4E character are, inflated it, and then just lied.

I highly doubt any game actually occurred. Grogs lie constantly.

quote:

This is the kind of thing that can only have actually occurred through some massive and deliberate misunderstanding of the rules, because even the most brazen and flat-out lying edition warrior would know better than to just make up something as ludicrous and impossible as this.

So now I want to know the details.

The simpler explanation is they are just lying. An elaborate scenario where they misunderstand the rules and ran a session of 4E where this happened is staggeringly unlikely. Its brazen and ludicrous because its a brazen lie.

Laphroaig fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Feb 9, 2015

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Laphroaig
Feb 6, 2004

Drinking Smoke
Dinosaur Gum

ProfessorCirno posted:

The GSL, it should be noted, was still leagues better then the vast majority of other gaming licenses in the industry, which almost all fall under "NEVER USE MY poo poo, BUY THE BOOKS AND DO NOTHING ELSE."

And yeah, the dude who made his money by leeching from Wizards after being let go is going to complain that you can't do the same to 4e, what a surprise.

From Bulmahn's wikipedia article:

quote:

Within two months of Wizards of the Coast's August 2007 announcement of D&D fourth edition, Bulmahn began working on a new edition of the d20 system that updated and polished the rules, and that he referred to as "a small side project"

When Paizo decided not to wait any longer to see how Wizards of the Coast would allow third-party publishers to support their new game, Paizo turned Bulmahn's side project into a complete RPG to give them their own set of core rules for the d20 game system; Paizo thus announced the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game on March 18, 2008.

Paizo as a company is a great example of why you don't want to let others develop your IP. Paizo published Dungeon and Dragon when WoTC spun them off. When WotC choose to discontinue Dungeon and Dragon (again), Paizo had all of the contact info for freelances and artists, the industry contacts, the publishing arm, the third party products - basically everything necessary in place, mostly through the fact that they published Dungeon and Dragon for WotC.

The OGL simply let Paizo continue to do what WotC had already set them up to do. Paizo is a company that simply would not exist if WotC hadn't effectively handed them the keys to the kingdom.

And now we have D&D Next, which Pathfinder can't call "not real D&D" because its 3.X as gently caress, but it doesn't matter worth a drat because the people playing Pathfinder are not suddenly going to switch to a new product which has significantly less support.

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