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Get to eat meat during Easter? Oh erm, get to pretend to believe in Old Norse paganism for fun, that's a good one.
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Feb 6, 2015 15:04
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I've cast my pearls before swine.
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Feb 6, 2015 15:07
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Miltank posted:Every civilization in the history of the world has had slavery until pious Christians realized how poo poo it was. Since you can't read, apparently: "It was only in the early 16th century that the modern idea of the galley slave became commonplace. Galley fleets as well as the size of individual vessels increase in size, which required more rowers. The number of benches could not be increased without lengthening hulls beyond their structural limits, and more than three oars per bench was not practicable. The demand for more rowers also meant that the relatively limited number of skilled oarsmen could not keep up with the demand of large galley fleets. It became increasingly common to man galleys with convicts or slaves, which required a simpler method of rowing. The older method of employing professional rowers using the alla sensile method (one oar per man, with two to three sharing the same bench) was gradually phased out in favor of rowing a scaloccio, which required less skill.[154] A single large oar was used for each bench, with several rowers working it together and the number of oarsmen per oar rose from three up to five. In some very large command galleys, there could be as many as seven to an oar." Do you have any conception of the conditions on an average Venetian merchant galley, owned and operated by good Christians? Hundreds of men kept in chains day night, sealed in the pestilential hull, whipped to keep rowing in the stew of their own offal until their bodies gave out and they were tossed over the side? Are you even capable of understanding what a monumental insult your self-congratulatory historical revisionism is to the millions of people who died screaming in the ships and sugar plantations and silver mines of the slave-owning Christian empires between the sixteenth and nineteenth centuries? You gently caress? You trash? You ignorant child?
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Feb 6, 2015 15:08
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I would much rather have had a thread about the only thing mattering being the antichrist. We haven't had a good Obama thread in a while.
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Feb 6, 2015 15:09
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Miltank posted:Oh wow look at me I'm so postmodern I don't believe in anything. ended monarchial serfdom
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Feb 6, 2015 15:09
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Miltank posted:Every civilization in the history of the world has had slavery until pious Christians realized how poo poo it was. I think that had more to do with them as human beings realizing how disgusting the practice was. That could've happened without their religion just as easily. Or are you suggesting athiests are pro-slavery?
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Feb 6, 2015 15:10
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Rodatose posted:ended monarchial serfdom Technically the puritans had a good go at that over here.
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Feb 6, 2015 15:10
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zeal posted:Since you can't read, apparently:  thousands of years of cultural inertia ground to a halt by God's elect.
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Feb 6, 2015 15:12
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there is only one thing that matters, and that is the guillotine
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Feb 6, 2015 15:13
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Rodatose posted:ended monarchial serfdom anabaptists tried to abolish private property back in the 16th century.
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Feb 6, 2015 15:14
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too bad they couldn't do it. from a hegelian viewpoint that would mean that god culture wasn't good enough to do it. of course, hegel can take a flying gently caress into a bramble thatch
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Feb 6, 2015 15:16
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Miltank posted:Christians: ended slavery ...Shot the capitalists?
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Feb 6, 2015 15:16
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I think this probably should just be in the other thread. You cannot come close to understanding the world without understanding something about Jesus Christ, so I think your argument fails on its face. If you'd like this to be otherwise, bombing will have to begin today.
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Feb 6, 2015 15:16
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CommieGIR posted:I think that had more to do with them as human beings realizing how disgusting the practice was. That could've happened without their religion just as easily. This is an entirely unfounded assertion. Cult of Zeus priests do not give a gently caress about the meek.
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Feb 6, 2015 15:17
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Miltank posted:
That's a resounding 'No,' then. How sad, though hardly surprising.
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Feb 6, 2015 15:18
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VitalSigns posted:...Shot the capitalists? Yeah, ahiests created the USSR PDRC DPRK and other despotic hellstates good point.
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Feb 6, 2015 15:18
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I don't know that the DPRK can really be considered atheist considering their whole Eternal President Born On A Mountain With Singing Animals state cult.
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Feb 6, 2015 15:21
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Despite all our differences I think we can agree on one thing, and that is that the divinely ordained place for a crown is fixed upon the heads of kings, and the divinely ordained place for the heads of kings is fixed upon pikes
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Feb 6, 2015 15:22
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zeal posted:That's a resounding 'No,' then. How sad, though hardly surprising. First, slavery exists. It exists for millenia. Then, zealous Christians like John Brown (PBUH) rise up against established norms and fight to abolish it.
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Feb 6, 2015 15:22
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VitalSigns posted:I don't know that the DPRK can really be considered atheist considering their whole Eternal President Born On A Mountain With Singing Animals state cult. The USSR was honestly bad enough on its own. e: See also; plantation owners had no compassion for the weakest among them and therefore can't really be considered Christians.
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Feb 6, 2015 15:23
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Miltank posted:First, slavery exists. It exists for millenia. Then, zealous Christians like John Brown (PBUH) rise up against established norms and fight to abolish it. Still no then. Cool. You're patting yourself on the back for your system of superstition taking over a thousand years to produce someone who thought: hmm, owning other human beings, as our own holy book says is justly allowed by God Himself, that might be wrong. Miltank posted:e: See also; plantation owners had no compassion for the weakest among them and therefore can't really be considered Christians. Ahh, a coward as well as an ignorant child.
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Feb 6, 2015 15:31
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Slavery always contradicted the sayings of Jesus. But Paul said a lot of bullshit that was very favorable to the Roman state and encouraged people to accept authority so of course a guy who never even met Jesus and was just saying whatever got collected and put alongside the Gospels and the sayings of Christ and preached to the common people as equal in authority to the words of God Himself.
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Feb 6, 2015 15:31
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anyone who did anything bad doesn't count as christian, that's awfully convenient
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Feb 6, 2015 15:32
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spoon0042 posted:anyone who did anything bad doesn't count as christian, that's awfully convenient Well converting people away from their religion is hard, so yeah it's probably better to convince people that Christianity teaches them not to do bad stuff than to de-convert them. Case in point: abolition, which fortunately did not require convincing a majority of Americans to stop being Christian. It's a bit weird when liberals seem to accept the arguments of tyrants and slave-drivers that Christianity teaches whipping blacks and bashing gays, and attempt to convince Christians that to be properly Christian they need to join the KKK or whatever.
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Feb 6, 2015 15:37
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VitalSigns posted:Well converting people away from their religion is hard, so yeah it's probably better to convince people that Christianity teaches them not to do bad stuff than to de-convert them. Hey, I don't know, some of those slaveholders were pretty convincing. Here's Presbyterian Minister James Thornwell, from 1860: "The parties in this conflict are not merely abolitionists and slaveholders—they are atheists, socialists, communists, red republicans, jacobins, on the one side, and the friends of order and regulated freedom on the other. In one word, the world is the battle ground—Christianity and Atheism the combatants; and the progress of humanity the stake." - The Rights and Duties of Masters, http://books.google.com.au/books?id=MqARAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false Sorry, folks. If you oppose slavery, you're an atheist, a communist, or worst of all, a Republican, and a threat to human progress, order, Christianity, and, um, freedom!
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Feb 6, 2015 15:46
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Regulated freedom, much better than normal freedom.
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Feb 6, 2015 15:47
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Miltank posted:The USSR was honestly bad enough on its own. The people who committed the atrocities were bad people and therefore can't properly be considered atheists 
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Feb 6, 2015 15:54
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Hey all, ignore the fact that Christians kept slaves for the vast majority of their existence and justified it with scripture, but did you know the real Christians are the ones who opposed it? Gotta love how Christian apologists have to continuously revise the religion so it appears less monstrous.
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Feb 6, 2015 15:55
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Angry Salami posted:Hey, I don't know, some of those slaveholders were pretty convincing. Here's Presbyterian Minister James Thornwell, from 1860: OK now find the craziest Muslim you can and use his words to prove all Muslims are death worshipping terrorists. Starving Autist posted:Hey all, ignore the fact that Christians kept slaves for the vast majority of their existence and justified it with scripture, but did you know the real Christians are the ones who opposed it? Gotta love how Christian apologists have to continuously revise the religion so it appears less monstrous. Who says we should ignore it? We should use the example of slaveowners ignoring the teachings of Christ and picking out a few passages in some dude's letters to justify owning people to hammer the current gently caress-the-poor prosperity Gospel Christianity that's in vogue nowadays in America.
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Feb 6, 2015 15:58
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VitalSigns posted:OK now find the craziest Muslim you can and use his words to prove all Muslims are death worshipping terrorists. You can think that a religion is full of poo poo and actively makes the world a worse place to live without necessarily thinking its followers are all moustache-twirling comic book villains.
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Feb 6, 2015 16:02
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VitalSigns posted:The people who committed the atrocities were bad people and therefore can't properly be considered atheists the dprk thing was a no true scotsman, that was my point. Starving Autist posted:You can think that a religion is full of poo poo and actively makes the world a worse place to live without necessarily thinking its followers are all moustache-twirling comic book villains. and yet, religion ended slavery.
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Feb 6, 2015 16:07
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Mornacale posted:No it doesn't. You may ignore the bibles claim to be divine but you ignoring it doesn't mean the bible doesn't claim it. It claims it about its bad parts and its good parts equally. If you ignore something horrible the bible says you are ignoring the bibles interpretation of a god. If I ignore a bad fable that doesn't call into question Aesops claim of divinity because he made no such claim. Furthermore, the whole God thing is why the quality of biblical fables is so piss poor. In a good fable bad things happen as a natural result of bad actions, not because they displease an observing god who then arbitrarily punishes you (or not if he like you). The boy who cried wolf gets eaten because he kept making a fuss over nothing to get attention resulting in people ignoring him when he actually needed help. Not because a god got mad at him for telling lies. This direct link of cause and effect and explaining how your own bad behavior causes the bad outcome is a superior approach to the biblical one. Biblical parables can allow you to blame Katrina on gay people because their "morality" is simply a list of arbitrary rules and a claim that you will be divinely punished if you don't follow them.
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Feb 6, 2015 16:08
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zeal posted:Still no then. Cool. You're patting yourself on the back for your system of superstition taking over a thousand years to produce someone who thought: hmm, owning other human beings, as our own holy book says is justly allowed by God Himself, that might be wrong. It took ten thousand years of Civilization before Christianity came along and ended slavery.
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Feb 6, 2015 16:09
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Miltank posted:First, slavery exists. It exists for millenia. Then, zealous Christians like John Brown (PBUH) rise up against established norms and fight to abolish it. I'm sorry, it took HOW many centuries for Christianity to end slavery? Miltank posted:It took ten thousand years of Civilization before Christianity came along and ended slavery. So, you guys sat on your thumbs and avocated for slavery for at least 500+ years, and you get the self - satisfaction of saying it was your religion that also ended it? No, I suspect emotional appeals about human suffering had more to do with abolition than the religious identity of the abolitionists. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 16:12 on Feb 6, 2015 |
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Feb 6, 2015 16:09
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zeal posted:To be fair, you do believe in Iron Age fairy stories. That is pretty idiotic. Rodatose posted:Despite all our differences I think we can agree on one thing, and that is that the divinely ordained place for a crown is fixed upon the heads of kings, and the divinely ordained place for the heads of kings is fixed upon pikes http://www.dartmouth.edu/~milton/reading_room/tenure/text.shtml May be written by a Calvinist but he is right about Kings. Starving Autist posted:Hey all, ignore the fact that Christians kept slaves for the vast majority of their existence and justified it with scripture, but did you know the real Christians are the ones who opposed it? Gotta love how Christian apologists have to continuously revise the religion so it appears less monstrous. You're right they did, in fact we got some kickass hyms about that true saint amongst men. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6WignKYFI8
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Feb 6, 2015 16:10
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Miltank posted:and yet, religion ended slavery. I'm not sure you can attribute all the good things achieved in the world to religion because a lot of people are religious, unless you also attribute all of the bad things for the same reason.
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Feb 6, 2015 16:10
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Starving Autist posted:You can think that a religion is full of poo poo and actively makes the world a worse place to live without necessarily thinking its followers are all moustache-twirling comic book villains. I mean all right, but "people who want to do lovely things are arguing the dominant ideology supports those things" isn't exactly a slam-dunk criticism. What religion or ideology hasn't been used as a shield by crooks and criminals and warlords to justify atrocities?
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Feb 6, 2015 16:12
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Miltank posted:It took ten thousand years of Civilization before Christianity came along and ended slavery. How did Christianity end slavery, exactly? Didn't it perpetuate it by giving people tons of excuses for why God thinks it's a really cool and good practice?
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Feb 6, 2015 16:14
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Don't forget that we couldn't end slavery in the US without a massive civil war in which both sides of the conflict openly appealed to divine right to their cause.
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Feb 6, 2015 16:15
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I mean when a bunch of people who claim to be Christian go against the universally accepted Christian position that slavery is good, how can you claim that Christianity is repsonsible for that? It's a result of rebelling against Christian doctrine, not following it.
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Feb 6, 2015 16:16
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