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Miltank posted:Oh wow look at me I'm so postmodern I don't believe in anything. Christians: for slavery before they were against it.
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Feb 6, 2015 14:52
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Let's ignore that Christian scripture was used to justify slavery for centuries, in favor of noting that abolitionists happened to belong to the dominant religion.
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Feb 6, 2015 14:53
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Hey all, ignore the fact that Christians kept slaves for the vast majority of their existence and justified it with scripture, but did you know the real Christians are the ones who opposed it? Gotta love how Christian apologists have to continuously revise the religion so it appears less monstrous.
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Feb 6, 2015 15:55
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VitalSigns posted:OK now find the craziest Muslim you can and use his words to prove all Muslims are death worshipping terrorists. You can think that a religion is full of poo poo and actively makes the world a worse place to live without necessarily thinking its followers are all moustache-twirling comic book villains.
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Feb 6, 2015 16:02
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Miltank posted:It took ten thousand years of Civilization before Christianity came along and ended slavery. How did Christianity end slavery, exactly? Didn't it perpetuate it by giving people tons of excuses for why God thinks it's a really cool and good practice?
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Feb 6, 2015 16:14
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I mean when a bunch of people who claim to be Christian go against the universally accepted Christian position that slavery is good, how can you claim that Christianity is repsonsible for that? It's a result of rebelling against Christian doctrine, not following it.
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Feb 6, 2015 16:16
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Miltank posted:Abolitionists were anti-slavery because of Christianity. That's bullshit. They were anti-slavery because they weren't terrible people, and Christianity was so culturally dominant that it was not socially acceptable to appeal to doing the right thing without mentioning Jesus. Christianity actively perpetuated slavery for a very long time, sorry. The idea that slavery is against Christianity was manufactured by these abolitionists who were still afraid of dying and didn't want to throw out the promises of eternal life with the support for slavery. These days we know better. There's no need to hold on to fairy tales that were obviously made up to scare people into being easily controlled.
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Feb 6, 2015 16:25
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CommieGIR posted:So, what you are telling me is that without Christianity, abolitionists would have been okay with slavery. He knows it's nonsense, the opposition to slavery has no basis in scripture. People knew slavery was wrong and you couldn't talk about morality outside the context of Christianity back then, so that's how they talked about it. Note that if Christians weren't such violent bigots, people would not need to defer to their religion when arguing against things that it explicitly supports.
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Feb 6, 2015 16:29
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Miltank posted:e: abolitionists aren't abolitionists without Christianity. Well I mean if you define the terms so that your argument is a tautology, things become as easy as assuming you're just going to live forever because death is scary.
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Feb 6, 2015 16:31
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CommieGIR posted:He banned it, but it wasn't enforced until the 1700s, by which time civilization as a whole was starting to realize that slavery was a monstrous and inhuman affair. Nevermind the fact that Christians keeping slaves and supporting it with scripture were so common as to not be notable at all, the real Christians were the ones who appealed to the golden rule and ignored scripture 
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Feb 6, 2015 16:34
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Miltank posted:Your statement or question or whatever it was is nonsense. Its like asking whether blue would still be blue if it was green. Or if religion wasn't made up for the sole purpose of exercising control over the weak and powerless but now pretends that it actually opposed the fact that it has been exclusively used for that purpose throughout its entire existence.
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Feb 6, 2015 16:37
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Miltank posted:Christianity wasn't made up for the purpose of control so you are wrong right out of the gate. It absolutely was, just like every other religion ever invented.
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Feb 6, 2015 16:49
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Miltank posted:John Brown obviously was just pretending to be a devout Christian in order to trick dull-witted religious folk into supporting his atheist cause. It worked, what can I say?
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Feb 6, 2015 16:52
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Reminder that though Miltank claims to be Christian, he thinks it's perfectly a-ok to personally administer the death penalty to anyone at will as long as you have a gun.
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Feb 6, 2015 16:53
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Miltank posted:who ar eyou? An unidentified shadowy figure in your backyard. No time to think! I could be here to rape your family! Quick, grab the glock from under your pillow!
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Feb 6, 2015 16:57
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Miltank posted:It is EXTREMELY telling that atheists think that the important aspect of abolition was just thinking it up. It took action and conviction of believe more than anything else. Yeah, it's a lot of effort to convince people that the teachings of the religion that they believe they have to follow or else they'll burn for eternity are actually wrong. But Christianity adapts, and eventually we have people like you who refuse to believe that the religion officially sanctioned slavery at the deepest level for the vast majority of its existence.
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Feb 6, 2015 17:01
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Miltank posted:Hmmmm nope. If Christianity is really responsibly for ending slavery, why did it only take 1850 years? Wouldn't it have done something earlier if the scripture was actually anti-slavery? Abolitionism has no origin in Christianity, it was merely assimilated by apologists like you who are afraid of death.
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Feb 6, 2015 17:05
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In 50 years when the universal consensus is that homophobia is morally wrong, and Christians don't even bother to preach against gays, Miltank's going to be arguing that Christianity is like, the original pro-gay philosophy. That's the level of historical revisionism he's engaging in here.
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Feb 6, 2015 17:07
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CommieGIR posted:Once again, I am not anti-thiest. However, the arguments that people like Kyrie, Miltank, and CoC promote are literally No True Scotsman hogwash that attempts to 'cleanse' their personal faith by arguing those who were also overwhelmingly Christian that did BAD things were obviously just not Christian enough, which is a laughable hand wave. That's how they actually think, though. There's no reasoning with them.
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Feb 6, 2015 17:15
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Miltank posted:No because any historical developments attributed to Christianity could have happened without Christianity because they were motivated by golden rule-type considerations with no basis in Christian scripture whatsoever. Fixed for you.
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Feb 6, 2015 17:31
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VitalSigns posted:If you're going to take quotes from the Old Testament to prove that Christianity is evil, you would earn more as a fox news anchor pulling random Koran quotes to justify condemning Muslims. The Old Testament isn't "supposed" to matter for Christians, but that doesn't stop them from using it whenever it's convenient to justify their bigotry. In theory it's not supposed to matter; in practice it actually does.
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Feb 6, 2015 17:41
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Miltank posted:Christians Oh come on, just earlier you were saying that slavers did not count as Christian, because slavery is un-Christian, despite it being explicitly endorsed by scripture.
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Feb 6, 2015 17:42
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The thing about the New Atheists is that they aren't trying to convince people who are smart enough to think this poo poo through on their own. Naturally when we read it, it comes off as smug and facile, but that's just because it's the atheist equivalent of "accept Christ or burn for eternity". There's a reason preachers are known for fire and brimstone as opposed to explaining the cosmological argument.
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Feb 10, 2015 16:44
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Badger of Basra posted:They know more about the monstrous Christianity that they construct in their minds and assume that every Christian believes. No true
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Feb 10, 2015 22:35
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Miltank posted:Knowing bible facts (aka OT genocides and ancient legal codes) =/= knowing about Christianity. Its cool how all the bad stuff done by Christians, in the name of Christianity, doesn't count as Christianity, when you define the terms so that this is all a meaningless tautology.
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Feb 10, 2015 22:55
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vessbot posted:Wait wait wait how could I miss this from the Pew poll, atheists and agnostics know more about the Bible and Christianity than Christians do Satan wrote the bible to trick people out of being Christian 
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Feb 11, 2015 00:15
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The claim that Christianity ended slavery is especially hilarious when you consider that explicit approval of slavery is one of the few things the old & new testaments agree upon completely.
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Feb 11, 2015 00:54
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Crowsbeak posted:Yeah real approval right there of the practice. I think it really is that someone knows alot about the Christianity they constructed. Incidentally this was one of the verses used to justify the abolitionism that you deny was in any way influenced by Christianity. Trading slaves is not equivalent to keeping them, a practice explicitly condoned elsewhere in the NT.
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Feb 11, 2015 01:18
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I just think it would be cool if the omniscient, omnipotent God could, just once reveal to someone an objectively verifiable fact that wasn't already known to a living human.
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Feb 11, 2015 02:37
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Crowsbeak posted:How would telling them that their are other worlds make them believe it? Well when they verify that stuff on their own, they might have some more faith in him. Interesting that the only thing he's willing to share is stuff that people already know and coping mechanisms for human mortality.
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Feb 11, 2015 03:05
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Crowsbeak posted:Yet they also do not defend it do they? Also can you not deny their is ambivalence? Lets compare that to platoism or aristotelism that argued for it. I think telling the slaves that they should meekly obey their masters amounts to an endorsement of slavery, in my opinion.
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Feb 11, 2015 06:20
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Crowsbeak posted:Actually it is especially since that verse would lead to Abolitionism that you anti theists seem to want to maintain was founded by a bunch of preadamite justifying enlightenment types. Look I understand it perfectly we all have our own little myths. Mine are that JC did do everything the Bible has, and yours are that the enlightenment was perfect. Except when it wasn't and then unlike with Church fathers its perfectly fine because of"men of their time". If the enlightenment sucks so much, one wonders why all its good ideas have been co-opted by Christianity and used to overwrite and erase the barbarity Christianity stood for beforehand.
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Feb 11, 2015 06:45
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I mean they clearly had no problem with the institution of slavery itself. Perhaps they objected in particular to the harsh treatment of slave traders, but it seems more plausible that "kidnappers" is the correct interpretation,. i.e. people who enslave others without following the proper enslavement protocol outlined in Deuteronomy 20:10-14.
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Feb 11, 2015 06:56
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Miltank posted:It says don't start a slave revolt that the authorities will blame on the Church. Don't do the moral thing if authorities will punish you for it, a central tenet of the life of Jesus Christ.
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Feb 11, 2015 06:58
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Crowsbeak posted:Yes and getting thousands killed by two or three legions is a good, moral thing. Also I am happy that you have stopped denying verifiable history. Really thats why I cam to this thread, really cannot stand it when people do that. Any discussion of the purported life of Jesus Christ is well outside the realm of verifiable history, so I have no clue what you're talking about.
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Feb 11, 2015 07:04
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BrandorKP posted:So has the Chapel Hill shooting come up yet? Yes, in the appropriate thread.
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Feb 11, 2015 19:33
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Crowsbeak posted:Being autistic myself, you are correct. I really do know other autistics who make the exact same argument he does. But I thought all autistics were smug atheists, and vice versa? Nothing makes sense anymore!
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Feb 12, 2015 01:14
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Miltank posted:I don't understand. What is happening? Why are you asking us, when God has all the answers? Just pray!
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Feb 12, 2015 04:33
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vessbot posted:Argument, please. You're just going to have to take it on faith. That's how it works.
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Feb 12, 2015 06:25
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