|
Volkerball posted:I don't think so, because what the police report says is going to need to be scrutinized based on what we do know. This whole process needs to be watched carefully to make sure the right things are happening. There doesn't seem to be any room nor reason for the police to try and downplay this crime. If what the father said in the interview is true, the victims were executed, which is a rather serious crime. Also, since the dude turned himself in, it's likely he's willing to talk.
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2015 20:01
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 24, 2024 06:07 |
|
|
Fetus Tree posted:To be fair, atheists don't have a commandment telling them not to. drat, I should take advantage of that. Its a shame that sociologically there'd still be consequences, and I'd have to dispose of any empathy I hold dear.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2015 20:02
|
|
|
Woozy posted:Wow this sure is a bunch of stupid specious horseshit! What the gently caress is an "atheist regime" again? Haha just kidding I know you mean Stalin but gee hrmdiddy hrm is there a difference between a nominally secular republican state and modern day Movement Atheists who are actually just a particularly pungent species of internet libertarian I just don't know A secular state isn't dominated by atheists. There is no contradiction in be personally religious and politically secular. Historically those states which have adopted atheism as their official or de facto religious ideology have been monstrously violent and repressive. How could we expect otherwise?
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2015 20:03
|
|
|
I think killing somebody is a logical conclusion to some disputes. Too bad there are a plethora of laws to protect dickbags. Probably make some people think twice about what they say whilst they run their mouths.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2015 20:05
|
|
|
Fetus Tree posted:To be fair, atheists don't have a commandment telling them not to. They also have a curious lack of those people whose job it is to forgive you when you're like a hired killer or mercenary for different paramilitary groups and more official war machines what are they called again I can't remember
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2015 20:06
|
|
|
Agag posted:A secular state isn't dominated by atheists. There is no contradiction in be personally religious and politically secular. Historically, most states full stop have been monstrously violent and repressive, regardless of official state religion declarations or defacto religious dominance.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2015 20:06
|
|
|
Agag posted:The values of an atheist are whatever he subjectively decides he likes or doesn't like. ... this is true of a religious person as well? All religions are subject to human interpretation and willingness to obey? You realize people can convert and adopt different religious codes as easily as they can convert and adopt philosophical, materialist ones, right? You are ruining this thread with your extreme anti-social views btw, so congrats I guess on burying discussion of a serious hate crime with your own hate speech. Periodiko fucked around with this message at 20:09 on Feb 11, 2015 |
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2015 20:07
|
|
|
PT6A posted:Why do you suppose that atheists, in general, don't believe all life is valuable? Given that we believe that this life is all anyone ever gets, I'd say the majority of atheists recognize that life is even more valuable than the average theist. That's all fine and good but those are just your subjective personal feelings. Another person might decide that, since "one life is all we get," and said life is infinitesimally brief, that it has no value at all. Or that the "good of the many outweighs the good of the few" and so perceived drags on society should be eliminated. Etc. Combine with the axiomatic corrupting nature of power, and I can't think of a historical leader who was an atheist and didn't behave like an amoral psychopath. Probably a few contemporary European premiers that I'm unaware of.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2015 20:08
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:Historically, most states full stop have been monstrously violent and repressive, regardless of official state religion declarations or defacto religious dominance. Until America came around, I am inclined to agree with you.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2015 20:08
|
|
|
PT6A posted:Why do you suppose that atheists, in general, don't believe all life is valuable? Given that we believe that this life is all anyone ever gets, I'd say the majority of atheists recognize that life is even more valuable than the average theist. I was trying to figure out how to respond to the guy but I just don't even know. The idea that religious people are somehow by definition better than non-religious people for reasons he outlined seems like a blatant troll or a case of just plain crazy? Lacking in empathy of your fellow human being? I don't know. I think both religious and non-religious people can value and cherish life. To push a view that atheists are more akin to a powder keg waiting to blow versus a religious person seems really stupid. People on both sides of the coin can easily do a murder, if their head and mental process is in a bad place.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2015 20:09
|
|
|
Fetus Tree posted:Until America came around, I am inclined to agree with you. I would find it a little difficult to see the need to qualify that, given that America operates torture camps around the world, spends a lot of its money blowing up developing nations, and generally waving its cock around in international politics. We're all as bad as each other.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2015 20:10
|
|
|
Periodiko posted:... this is true of a religious person as well? All religions are subject to human interpretation and willingness to obey? It speaks to the motivation of the hate crime as a hate crime. His militant atheism didn't provide him with any reasons not to kill these people beyond his own self-interest.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2015 20:10
|
|
|
Sunset posted:I was trying to figure out how to respond to the guy but I just don't even know. The idea that religious people are somehow by definition better than non-religious people for reasons he outlined seems like a blatant troll or a case of just plain crazy? Lacking in empathy of your fellow human being? I don't know. I think both religious and non-religious people can value and cherish life. To push a view that atheists are more akin to a powder keg waiting to blow versus a religious person seems really stupid. People on both sides of the coin can easily do a murder, if their head and mental process is in a bad place. With or without religion, a good person will do good things, and a bad person will do bad things. It takes religion to make a good person do bad things, and I don't see a lot of evidence that religion makes bad people do good things.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2015 20:10
|
|
|
Maybe your position on the ol' theism spectrum and whether or not you're a murderous psycho are not 100% connected. Murderous psychos can come from all walks of life, and can think of all manner of justifications for their murderous psycho behavior.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2015 20:11
|
|
|
projecthalaxy posted:Maybe your position on the ol' theism spectrum and whether or not you're a murderous psycho are not 100% connected. Murderous psychos can come from all walks of life, and can think of all manner of justifications for their murderous psycho behavior. Unless they're Muslim, in which case it's definitely because of that.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2015 20:12
|
|
|
PT6A posted:With or without religion, a good person will do good things, and a bad person will do bad things. It takes religion to make a good person do bad things, and I don't see a lot of evidence that religion makes bad people do good things. A bad person has probably never found religion and turned his life around.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2015 20:12
|
|
|
Sunset posted:I was trying to figure out how to respond to the guy but I just don't even know. The idea that religious people are somehow by definition better than non-religious people for reasons he outlined seems like a blatant troll or a case of just plain crazy? Lacking in empathy of your fellow human being? I don't know. I think both religious and non-religious people can value and cherish life. To push a view that atheists are more akin to a powder keg waiting to blow versus a religious person seems really stupid. People on both sides of the coin can easily do a murder, if their head and mental process is in a bad place. Its not a question of people being better or worse than other people. Its a question of the basis of morality, and whether you believe that basis to be subjective or objective. Or to look at it another way, if e.g. a Buddhist murders someone we can reasonably argue that he has failed to follow the conventional interpretation of Buddhist morality. He has harmed another being, created karma, etc. If any atheist murders someone how has he transgressed against atheist morality? He hasn't, no such thing exists.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2015 20:14
|
|
|
Agag posted:It speaks to the motivation of the hate crime as a hate crime. His militant atheism didn't provide him with any reasons not to kill these people beyond his own self-interest.  A bad person is a bad person no matter what theological belief they cling to. You are clutching at straws for an explanation as to why atheists are amoral and evil.Agag posted:Or to look at it another way, if e.g. a Buddhist murders someone we can reasonably argue that he has failed to follow the conventional interpretation of Buddhist morality. He has harmed another being, created karma, etc. If any atheist murders someone how has he transgressed against atheist morality? He hasn't, no such thing exists. Considering a lot of the humanist movement is driven by atheism, you are wrong.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2015 20:14
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:I would find it a little difficult to see the need to qualify that, given that America operates torture camps around the world, spends a lot of its money blowing up developing nations, and generally waving its cock around in international politics. America does it to protect the world though, thats different. Without us theyre kinda hosed.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2015 20:14
|
|
|
what is atheism anyhow
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2015 20:15
|
|
|
It's bad.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2015 20:16
|
|
|
Miltank posted:A bad person has probably never found religion and turned his life around. I was convinced you were simply a troll a few pages back. If so, good job, 9/10. If not, 2/10 
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2015 20:16
|
|
|
I'm not sure if Agag is trolling or just enjoying an opportunity to promote a sectarian agenda, but it's pretty clear discussion with him isn't going to add anything of value to anyone's life.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2015 20:16
|
|
|
Agag posted:If any atheist murders someone how has he transgressed against atheist morality? He hasn't, no such thing exists. That depends on whether you are speaking about an absolute, unified, prescriptive atheist morality, or the morality of any given atheist. The former doesn't exist because nobody agrees on it. The latter certainly exists or you would have a lot more problems with atheists going out and murdering people for shits and giggles. Fetus Tree posted:America does it to protect the world though, thats different. Without us theyre kinda hosed. Not sure you can protect the world by torturing and killing people to destabilise entire subcontinents. Also not sure that the world was especially hosed during America's isolationist period prior to the first world war. Or the millenia prior to that when nobody knew it existed. I mean full marks for effort but possibly a bit more nuance might be called for in future? OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Feb 11, 2015 |
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2015 20:17
|
|
|
Volkerball posted:I don't think so, because what the police report says is going to need to be scrutinized based on what we do know. This whole process needs to be watched carefully to make sure the right things are happening. Good article quote:Yet there's a very real tension between the community's typical discussions, which often imply or state outright that Islam itself is to blame for the acts of individual Muslim extremists, and its discussion today articulating (correctly) that, even if the Chapel Hill shooter was motivated by an extreme hatred of religion, that does not mean all atheists are culpable.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2015 20:17
|
|
|
projecthalaxy posted:Maybe your position on the ol' theism spectrum and whether or not you're a murderous psycho are not 100% connected. Murderous psychos can come from all walks of life, and can think of all manner of justifications for their murderous psycho behavior. I agree with you. However in one belief system - atheism - there is no particular reason not to be a murderous psycho, if that happens to be how you want to behave. CommieGIR posted:
Not evil, just amoral. What could an atheist morality be based on?
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2015 20:17
|
|
|
Miltank posted:A bad person has probably never found religion and turned his life around. For example, this guy.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2015 20:17
|
|
|
Jastiger posted:I was convinced you were simply a troll a few pages back. If so, good job, 9/10. If not, 2/10 Go read Kyrie's wonderful thread and you'll find out. Agag posted:Not evil, just amoral. What could an atheist morality be based on? You'd have to assume morality is wholly influenced by religious ideals. Its not. Morality and Empathy are largely sociologically influenced, we had prohibitions against murdering members of our social circle prior to the advent of organized religion.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2015 20:17
|
|
|
Agag posted:It speaks to the motivation of the hate crime as a hate crime. His militant atheism didn't provide him with any reasons not to kill these people beyond his own self-interest. That literally doesn't make sense. An absence of an injunction against committing a crime is not motivation to commit a crime. What are you even doing besides exploiting strangers' distress over a horrific murder.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2015 20:18
|
|
|
Volkerball posted:I'm not sure if Agag is trolling or just enjoying an opportunity to promote a sectarian agenda, but it's pretty clear discussion with him isn't going to add anything of value to anyone's life. Friend, I am wounded.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2015 20:18
|
|
|
Sunset posted:I was trying to figure out how to respond to the guy but I just don't even know. The idea that religious people are somehow by definition better than non-religious people for reasons he outlined seems like a blatant troll or a case of just plain crazy? Lacking in empathy of your fellow human being? I don't know. I think both religious and non-religious people can value and cherish life. To push a view that atheists are more akin to a powder keg waiting to blow versus a religious person seems really stupid. People on both sides of the coin can easily do a murder, if their head and mental process is in a bad place. Reminder that only one of these groups gets a million cosmic do-overs when they fail to live up to whatever set of values they normally claim to have Capital-A Athiesm is a dumb internet nerd thing that has practically zero insight into morality, life, or spirituality. It's just a side effect of libertarian ideology which is the same rational actor A is A bullshit and it expresses itself in the same way: a cover for various stripes of deeply reactionary, paranoid, and basically psychotic political philosophies which are native to liberal capitalist empires
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2015 20:19
|
|
|
Woozy posted:Capital-A Athiesm is a dumb internet nerd thing that has practically zero insight into morality, life, or spirituality. It's just a side effect of libertarian ideology which is the same rational actor A is A bullshit and it expresses itself in the same way: a cover for various stripes of deeply reactionary, paranoid, and basically psychotic political philosophies which are native to liberal capitalist empires  Keep going.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2015 20:20
|
|
|
Agag posted:Its not a question of people being better or worse than other people. Its a question of the basis of morality, and whether you believe that basis to be subjective or objective. So atheists have no morals. They can't have any morals, because there is no god there to give them an understanding of right from wrong, and whether or not you should kill people if you feel slighted. Okay, got it.. Don't piss me off I guess? I've got nothing to lose, or something like that.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2015 20:20
|
|
|
Woozy posted:Capital-A Athiesm is a dumb internet nerd thing that has practically zero insight into morality, life, or spirituality. It doesn't purport to, though, making it automatically superior to the false promises of religion.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2015 20:21
|
|
|
Woozy posted:Reminder that only one of these groups gets a million cosmic do-overs when they fail to live up to whatever set of values they normally claim to have Lol what. Capital A-Atheism is about Libertarians and isn't about the very real and systematic damage that religion is/has done to our political landscape? What head-in-the-sand poo poo is this? Since I don't like Thing, all of the historicity of the other stuff is true and Atheists are big dumb babbies?
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2015 20:21
|
|
|
Agag posted:Not evil, just amoral. What could an atheist morality be based on? Anything you want it to be? Personally I go with something like the following ground rules: 1. Preservation and promotion of human happiness is the highest good. 2. Killing people is rarely a solution to a problem. 3. Everyone else is just like you. And that gets me a long way.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2015 20:22
|
|
|
Sunset posted:So atheists have no morals. They can't have any morals, because there is no god there to give them an understanding of right from wrong, and whether or not you should kill people if you feel slighted. Okay, got it.. Atheists construct their own subjective set of morals, which are necessarily conditional. As you so aptly satirize it: "I am a good person, but don't piss me off." The shooter likely thought of himself as moral, until sufficiently angered.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2015 20:23
|
|
|
in d&d ur still allowed to use allears and rolleyes and no one will call u a cucker boy and put u in a locker
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2015 20:23
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:Not sure you can protect the world by torturing and killing people to destabilise entire subcontinents. Also not sure that the world was especially hosed during America's isolationist period prior to the first world war. Or the millenia prior to that when nobody knew it existed. Yeah pretending like the world works the same way as it did in 1920 is ignorant as poo poo, let alone pre colonial times. Also, you think the world is better off with russia or china in charge? Legit can't tell if youre a troll
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2015 20:24
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 24, 2024 06:07 |
|
|
Agag posted:Atheists construct their own subjective set of morals, which are necessarily conditional. As you so aptly satirize it: "I am a good person, but don't piss me off." I feel like he didn't since he turned himself in and that it isn't as simple as you put it here. Just at hought.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2015 20:25
|
|