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I've been in IT management for a few years but I've been fortunate that I've never had to personally terminate anybody. I've also never been fired either, so I don't really have a frame of reference for it. I'm in a position now where I'm very soon going to be letting a couple guys go. All of them are relatively recent hires, who were brought on around the same time about six months ago and it became apparent pretty quick that they were ill-suited for their respective roles and not as qualified as they led others to believe during the recruitment process, which occurred prior to me joining this team. I wasn't involved in their hiring. I don't really think they should be surprised, given that there's already been some degree of performance management and remediation going on, but I might be overestimating their awareness. None of them have done anything specific to warrant termination 'for cause', it's just mainly that they aren't up to the level of performance I expect, and I don't see that likely to improve. I will be recruiting for their roles after they're gone-- this isn't a layoff or cutback situation. They're all intermediate/senior IT and network admins. I'd love hear some feedback from other guys who've been through this. Where do you go from after "Can I see you in my office?"
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Feb 19, 2015 01:00
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Remember to set a tone that it isn't a negotiation. "It has been decided" sets a hell of a different tone then "We're thinking of letting you go". What's the political situation here? Do you have institutional support to let them go? Will their be increased work on everyone else to pick up their slack?
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Feb 19, 2015 01:45
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Golden Bee posted:Remember to set a tone that it isn't a negotiation. "It has been decided" sets a hell of a different tone then "We're thinking of letting you go". As far as the team goes, the support is definitely there. There's already been some resentment building up within the group over perceived workload/effort distribution, so I'm not worried there. In theory the workload on the rest of them would go up...if these guys had been carrying their weight to begin with. For sure there will be a little extra overhead for everybody in the short term but the reality is most of the work that should have been handled by these guys was already being done elsewhere anyway. There's always the concern that the guys we're keeping will be sitting around going "Who's next?" and that was one of the reasons I wanted to do this in one shot, rather than replace them one at a time as we were able to backfill the positions. Maybe it's a misstep to do them all together, but I didn't want to have a cloud hanging over the team as we rotate people out over the next few months.
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Feb 19, 2015 02:51
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Just be calm about it and say what you said here. It would help if there was a definite probationary period, which you might consider implementing for new hires. That way you can say "We have decided not to keep you on past your probationary period" and that's that. If they ask why, "Your work was not up to the level of performance we expected." If they ask for another chance, "I'm sorry, but these past few months have demonstrated that you're not a good fit for what our company needs right now." If you can offer to be a good reference without lying (like if they would be good at a different job), do that.
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Feb 19, 2015 03:32
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This situation is entirely different from a layoff, where good people who don't deserve to be fired get fired anyway. This is for their laziness and lack of skills. This is America, you can fire anyone for any reason at any time, provided it isn't because of racism / sexism / ageism / whatever-ism. You have determined they aren't up to the job, it is entirely their fault, they will either learn from this scenario and better themselves or blame you and remain willfully ignorant. Now that you are in the correct mindset, get their exit documents together (severance information, unemployment benefits, etc.) and invite them into your office. I always have a second person in the office with me from HR to provide support if needed. You don't want to give them any reason for a lawsuit. I never tell them the actual reasons or have any type of detailed conversation. I say the same script: "[Person's name], we don't feel that you are working out at [my company]. We have decided that you aren't a good fit, and we are going to let you go effective immediately. We are providing you with X weeks severance. We need you to gather your things and go." Then there is a pause while I wait for them to ask a question. Sometimes they don't. If the person asks any questions or asks for more details, I always respond with some variation of, "It just isn't working out" or "We just don't think you're a good fit". After a few minutes of this, they get the idea, and are resigned to the firing. I get no pleasure out of doing this. It is the hardest part of being a manager. My goals are to, 1) Provide no basis for a lawsuit, and 2) Get them out of the office ASAP. Once they leave the office, I have someone from HR watch them gather their things to ensure they don't steal anything (laptop), and escort them out. I have never had a lawsuit as a result of my firing someone. A few times someone has asked me for a reference after being terminated. I always say, "I would not be a good reference, but maybe one of your co-workers would be a good reference" and leave it at that. _areaman fucked around with this message at 05:40 on Feb 19, 2015 |
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Feb 19, 2015 05:35
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_areaman has it down. We don't let anyone go pack up there stuff though. They are escorted out immediately by security and our admin will pack everything up. and they can pick it up in a few days at the security desk. You just have to say 'sorry we have to let you go' leave it at that.
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Feb 19, 2015 07:20
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Don't fire me dude pls, I'll start being good at work, I proms
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Feb 19, 2015 11:57
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The advice that has always stuck with me has been: You aren't doing anything to feel bad about, they were the ones who put themselves into this situation. Does it suck? Yeah, but that's not your fault, it's on them.
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Feb 19, 2015 12:47
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mercenarynuker posted:The advice that has always stuck with me has been: You aren't doing anything to feel bad about, they were the ones who put themselves into this situation. Does it suck? Yeah, but that's not your fault, it's on them. Yup, don't say 'I'm sorry' or anything like that, its just a very straight up process. I've had to let one guy go for this same reason and it sucked. I felt terrible about it because its not an easy thing to do, pretty emotional too because you're seeing someone get hit with bad news that you delivered (even though as you said its on them), but I made sure to feel terrible about it after he had left.
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Feb 19, 2015 14:47
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spwrozek posted:_areaman has it down. We don't let anyone go pack up there stuff though. They are escorted out immediately by security and our admin will pack everything up. and they can pick it up in a few days at the security desk. how does that work? i have personal property at work, and you can bet your buns that if i just got fired and you tried to keep me from getting my personal property (and come pick it up?) i'd raise hell. company stuff I understand, but I have headphones, shoes under my desk, etc. How is it legal to just hold their property?
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Feb 19, 2015 15:45
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Where they're all "intermediate/senior IT and network admins", you have to factor in revoking their access credentials/logons/keypasses etc. If your company has a standard policy, make sure you follow it. If not, it needs one. From what I understand you need to take into account that they should not have access to their accounts at all from the moment they know they're terminated. That said, having someone show up, sit down, and their logon not work is a rude punch in the gut. Perhaps you can make an arrangement with IT where you send them an IM when the person walks into your office and the IT person knows to revoke their credentials at that moment. Where you have 3 people to fire I'm not sure how you'd go around making sure the other two don't get a chance to cause any mischief (or for someone later on to blame you for letting them have the chance, and how do you prove they didn't?), but you'll have to figure that out. As for the actual face-to-face (for the love of Christ do it face-to-face, in private), just set people down, tell them they're fired, employment terminated, being let go, etc. Have any paperwork ready for them and have them sign anything that might be necessary. Do it clearly and directly, don't hem and haw or make it seem like you're not sure. And thank you for having the guts to let people go who aren't doing their share. Nothing's worse than having an admittedly deadweight coworker that your boss won't or can't fire for whatever reason.
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Feb 19, 2015 16:29
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xie posted:how does that work? i have personal property at work, and you can bet your buns that if i just got fired and you tried to keep me from getting my personal property (and come pick it up?) i'd raise hell. company stuff I understand, but I have headphones, shoes under my desk, etc. How is it legal to just hold their property? The owner can deny you access to private property and having personal items on it doesn't negate that. I assume they have a reasonable amount of time to return it to you, though I do know that some places require that you give them a list of your stuff.
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Feb 19, 2015 19:15
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asur posted:The owner can deny you access to private property and having personal items on it doesn't negate that. I assume they have a reasonable amount of time to return it to you, though I do know that some places require that you give them a list of your stuff. In a big company, that's probably somewhat normal, but it was very jarring for the rest of us. I took it as a sign to immediately find a new job. If they didn't value that employee after 5 years of work, I didn't have confidence that they would treat me any better. I don't know what kinds of environments you guys work in, but in a small company, you might unintentionally make a big impression on the people who aren't being fired. It's fine if the people you have are easy to replace, but not so great if you're going for high retention or operate in a competitive employment market.
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Feb 19, 2015 21:56
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Man if the place I work treated people as criminals to the point they weren't allowed to pack up their own stuff, I would be sending resumes out tomorrow. What the gently caress. I have never once worked at a place that operated like that. (we do cut peoples' system access off as soon as they're in the office with the axeman, though)
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Feb 19, 2015 22:07
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Nail Rat posted:Man if the place I work treated people as criminals to the point they weren't allowed to pack up their own stuff, I would be sending resumes out tomorrow. What the gently caress. I have never once worked at a place that operated like that.
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Feb 19, 2015 22:12
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Nail Rat posted:Man if the place I work treated people as criminals to the point they weren't allowed to pack up their own stuff, I would be sending resumes out tomorrow. What the gently caress. I have never once worked at a place that operated like that. It depends on whether it's an insta-fire or an "it's not working out" thing for us. If you're getting insta-canned, two security officers will be walking you to the car and you'll be getting your desk contents in 6-8 weeks (hope you didn't leave your wallet and phone at the desk). My last two companies had similar policies, so I suspect it's just the big-company way. My first company (PFE) didn't even bother having your manager tell you that you were being insta-fired. Security showed up at your office with the termination paperwork and immediately escorted you to the parking lot. Not a lot of people got insta-fired, though. Most were laid off through normal channels with defined end-dates and 'clear your desk' dates. "It's not working out but meh, you're okay," they typically tell you to clear your desk out by the end of the week, transfer your files, etc.
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Feb 19, 2015 22:19
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_areaman posted:This situation is entirely different from a layoff, where good people who don't deserve to be fired get fired anyway. This is for their laziness and lack of skills. This is America, you can fire anyone for any reason at any time, provided it isn't because of racism / sexism / ageism / whatever-ism. You have determined they aren't up to the job, it is entirely their fault, they will either learn from this scenario and better themselves or blame you and remain willfully ignorant. I'm in total disagreement with the bolded part. When someone needs to get fired, management is almost always at fault to some degree (up to 100%). In this particular case, the OP said that these employees led the company to believe they were more qualified than they actually were. How did this happen exactly? Why doesn't the company have proper interviewing and hiring practices to detect this type of thing? There are many articles and books written on this subject, and studies conducted. Basically, if someone is able to fake competence and get hired, there's a problem. Unless they flat out lied, such as by saying they have college degrees when they don't (a guy did that at my previous job...), then it is wrong to put the blame entirely on them.
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Feb 19, 2015 22:33
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At my last job I had to let go maybe 6 people over the course of the years, pretty much all performance related. My old boss used to say that it should not be a surprise to them, but no matter how much you've worked with them, and even if you tell them that they will lose their job if things don't improve, it'll be a surprise to them every drat time. Everyone reacts differently, some just are matter of fact about it like Ok and that's great, but I've had people cry and beg. The easiest way is just direct, saying that your skills don't align with what the company needs (even if the person has no skills), and we're going to have to let you go. And then just shutup, it's not worth debating the merits of what they do or what not because things aren't going to change. Just shutup and let them work it out in their head. We revoked all network/building access during the firing process, but we did allow them to collect their things, with a manager watching them within reason. Another thing to consider is how you're going to deal with letting multiple people go. Having been in situations where people were being called in to be let go one by one, it's terrifying and can hurt morale for everyone even in situations where everyone knows those people are dead weight. When we had to let go groups of people, we did it all at once (each person released separately) with a close following or simultaneous meeting with everyone else explaining it and assuring them that they were all fine. People still worry but it helped a lot.
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Feb 19, 2015 22:40
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Going to chime in and add to the "It'll always be a surprise" group. I've got a coworker who was warned he's on his last chance 6 months ago. Since that time he's talked about moving up to a higher department, becoming a manager if they split up this department and gotten pissed that he didn't get a promotion. It must be nice to live in a bubble world like that, but these people always have totally unrealistic expectations.
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Feb 20, 2015 19:53
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The one time I've been fired, the manager sat me down and said "Today is going to be your last day here." I was okay with it though, I knew I wasn't a good fit and the Thursday prior I'd gotten into a medium sized argument with my department VP in the middle of a meeting, and won, so I knew my days were numbered. We chatted about a few things that went wrong, both agreed that the VP was a dickhead, and I packed my poo poo and left while the new HR manager watched (on her first day of work). Later that night my former coworkers took me out and got me extremely hammered and when I got home I threw up 3 times. Ah, memories.
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Feb 20, 2015 21:00
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xie posted:how does that work? i have personal property at work, and you can bet your buns that if i just got fired and you tried to keep me from getting my personal property (and come pick it up?) i'd raise hell. company stuff I understand, but I have headphones, shoes under my desk, etc. How is it legal to just hold their property? I've been laid off before (cutbacks), and I was allowed to pack up my poo poo. I've never been fired for performance, but I'd like to think that I could be civil about it. If you told me I couldn't take my stuff home and that "security" needed to take me out, I'd start yelling and give them a reason to be there.
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Feb 20, 2015 21:13
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Considering I leave my car keys in my desk, I'd raise royal hell if I wasn't allowed to get my personal property.
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Feb 20, 2015 22:48
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This thread made me take all my personal poo poo home and start keeping my wallet/keys/phone on me at all times.
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Feb 20, 2015 23:01
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Probationary periods are great. I had to fire 4 or 5 people at my last job (over 2 years) and failing your probationary period was an entirely predetermined routine where I write up their final (unsatisfactory) performance review and include a recommendation of termination, then HR handles the rest. I go get a coffee while they come and pack up their poo poo with security watching over. So yea protip implement an objective, review based probationary period and it's very easy process-wise to fire underperformers. It's not a surprise to anyone either since their midterm evaluations wouldn't be exactly glowing, and they get concrete feedback on what needs to improve, or else.
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Feb 20, 2015 23:13
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Actually had a rough experience a few years ago, logistically. The company had to fire security and the desk cleaners.
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Feb 20, 2015 23:15
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Quis custodes ipset custodes, indeed?
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Feb 21, 2015 00:11
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enraged_camel posted:
I know this isn't why you posted the thread, but do want to echo this point. Bad employees do get hired, but multiple ones in the same role not having the right skillset says someone (not the OP since he wasn't involved) doesn't know how to conduct an interview, at least for a technical position.
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Feb 21, 2015 00:58
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At my old job if you were laid off you were allowed to pack up your stuff with a manager watching so you didn't grab anything that belonged to the company then escorted out by the manager. If you were fired you got marched down to HR, fired, and your poo poo got packed up for you and you weren't even allowed back in the building to pick it up, they had someone truck it out to the parking lot on a hand cart. Even when I quit voluntarily on good terms I still had to have a manager escort me out of the building and watch me turn in my badge.
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Feb 21, 2015 01:15
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Xandu posted:I know this isn't why you posted the thread, but do want to echo this point. Bad employees do get hired, but multiple ones in the same role not having the right skillset says someone (not the OP since he wasn't involved) doesn't know how to conduct an interview, at least for a technical position.
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Feb 21, 2015 02:05
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enraged_camel posted:I'm in total disagreement with the bolded part. Here's what happened to me recently. We went on a hiring spree due to our office moving and lots of people declining to move. So people started to leave and take jobs elsewhere before we could even hire replacements. Everyone who stayed with the company suddenly had double or triple the workload, plus we had to help interview, sometimes up to six people a day. This went on for month after exhausting month. Suffice to say, people slipped through the cracks of the hiring process. Some people have all the right words on their resumes, and for short periods of time can say the right things. I still have all of their resumes in my desk, and sometimes after a particularly basic question, I will pull the resumes out to see if I'm crazy...yes, they did indeed say that they could this. I've been thinking about this subject of "how to fire someone" recently because I want to just ask my management to fire these very people, and I've been mentally preparing my case. It's hard, because we're still so overworked and under manned. But they're killing us. I like what I saw from the famous Netflix HR slides - adequate performance gets a generous severance package. We're like a pro sports team, not a kids rec league. Just like it's spring training, not everyone can make the team, and it's not personal. If you want a spot on the team, get better at your job. If you already have 15-30 years experience and you suck, I feel bad for you son. Sorry for your troubles.
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Feb 21, 2015 03:00
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I can't believe in today's day and age that any employer would withhold someone's personal property. I'm a police officer and if I was called to an office because the manager refused to let a former employee get their stuff, I'd tell the manager to get it immediately or be arrested for theft or whatever applicable charge I could find. That's beyond hosed up and if you're a manager or supervisor in a position to do something like that, I'd change your policy. An employer has every right to escort you and ban you from their property, but absolutely no legal grounds to deprive you of your personal possessions. IANAL though and I've seen crazier things but I would advise anyone who's employer withholds their property to call the police to do an escort or civil stand by, which is something we do in divorces or messy breakups all the time. The Shep fucked around with this message at 15:33 on Feb 21, 2015 |
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Feb 21, 2015 15:05
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District Selectman posted:Here's what happened to me recently. We went on a hiring spree due to our office moving and lots of people declining to move. So people started to leave and take jobs elsewhere before we could even hire replacements. Everyone who stayed with the company suddenly had double or triple the workload, plus we had to help interview, sometimes up to six people a day. This went on for month after exhausting month. Suffice to say, people slipped through the cracks of the hiring process. Some people have all the right words on their resumes, and for short periods of time can say the right things. I still have all of their resumes in my desk, and sometimes after a particularly basic question, I will pull the resumes out to see if I'm crazy...yes, they did indeed say that they could this. I can agree with your last point, assuming there's been any sort of evaluation with the employee, setting ANY concrete expectations/performance goals, etc. But that first part? That is a sign of awful mismanagement. It's really terrible for a company to get into a situation where it's so desperate for bodies that they basically don't care who they hire (I assume this is not some every-level position), has no process in place for screening out people who would be totally unsuccessful, and then puts them in a position where they end up fired for cause when they should have never been there in the first place. Keep in mind, I'm assuming these are applicants who were truthful during the hiring process. Someone who lies about qualifications or ability is a different mess altogether; I'd expect an experienced interviewer to be able to suss out blatant liars, but no one is psychic. I'm also assuming these are not people who are just unwilling to learn new skills or do nothing but play candy crush. If they are, disregard. I mean, think of it from the perspective of an applicant: you expect the person reviewing you to know what they need for the position. If you go in, truthfully tell them what you have to offer, and they think you'd be a good fit, wouldn't you think they'd know what they're talking about? How, as someone outside that company, would you have a better idea what's needed for the position than the person who works there?
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Feb 21, 2015 17:11
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Cmdr. Shepard posted:I can't believe in today's day and age that any employer would withhold someone's personal property. It's worth a try and I think it's admirable that you'd support an employee but you should read some of the hosed up corporate boilerplate a lot of us have to sign today. They word it so everything in and out of workplace/hours is technically under their watch. It wouldn't surprise me if I went over my employment agreement they actually claim everything you bring into the building technically belongs to them. I don't think my company would do anything like keep property. I've been witness to a guy that was axed with cause and he was allowed to pack with his manager looking on. Also that absolute statement about it's all the employee's fault is 100% bullshit and sounds like a manager with no drive to improve their own performance w/r/t hiring the right people the first time. Terminations are never good things.
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Feb 21, 2015 17:44
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AgrippaNothing posted:It's worth a try and I think it's admirable that you'd support an employee but you should read some of the hosed up corporate boilerplate a lot of us have to sign today. They word it so everything in and out of workplace/hours is technically under their watch. It wouldn't surprise me if I went over my employment agreement they actually claim everything you bring into the building technically belongs to them. I don't think my company would do anything like keep property. I've been witness to a guy that was axed with cause and he was allowed to pack with his manager looking on. You can't sign away your rights in a contract like that. If you had say your wallet or personal phone in your desk but they wont let you get your poo poo from your desk even under supervision then call the police immediately.
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Feb 21, 2015 18:11
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onemillionzombies posted:You can't sign away your rights in a contract like that. If you had say your wallet or personal phone in your desk but they wont let you get your poo poo from your desk even under supervision then call the police immediately.
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Feb 21, 2015 18:28
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Yeah but what the heck is someone supposed to do when they're told to vacate the premises, but no you can't get your wallet with your drivers license, or keys to start your car. It's unreasonable and asinine.
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Feb 21, 2015 18:45
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blugu64 posted:Yeah but what the heck is someone supposed to do when they're told to vacate the premises, but no you can't get your wallet with your drivers license, or keys to start your car. It also doesn't actually happen, I mean seriously have you ever heard of anyone just standing around in their work parking lot and collect calling their mom to come pick them up because they got fired and their employer kept their wallet, keys, and phone?
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Feb 21, 2015 18:46
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I think the theoretical business in this situation is going to have great difficulty explaining to a patrolman why a former employee cannot take possession of clear personal property, such as a wallet. Personal projects which were worked on with a company computer/software would be a far more complex issue, obviously. onemillionzombies fucked around with this message at 19:00 on Feb 21, 2015 |
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Feb 21, 2015 18:48
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I still remember quitting from a prior job and part of the policy was issuing erase commands to mobile devices attached to exchange. Well I at the time had my iPod Touch getting email and checked it after a few days and the drat thing was wiped. Somewhat of a bummer, but its another odd area where if it was my phone I might be a little more pissed off, but I was kicking myself for not remembering to delete the email account to remove that link. BYOD workplaces have an interesting reach into personal property.
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Feb 21, 2015 18:59
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BEHOLD: MY CAPE posted:It also doesn't actually happen, I mean seriously have you ever heard of anyone just standing around in their work parking lot and collect calling their mom to come pick them up because they got fired and their employer kept their wallet, keys, and phone? Sort of. I had a co-worker at PFE get fired in exactly that way, and he called and asked a colleague in our department to go get his backpack (with his keys and wallet in it) from his cubicle and bring it outside to him. The company was perfectly willing to leave him to walk home until they got around to sorting out his office. quote:I still remember quitting from a prior job and part of the policy was issuing erase commands to mobile devices attached to exchange. Well I at the time had my iPod Touch getting email and checked it after a few days and the drat thing was wiped. Somewhat of a bummer, but its another odd area where if it was my phone I might be a little more pissed off, but I was kicking myself for not remembering to delete the email account to remove that link. BYOD workplaces have an interesting reach into personal property. This is why I refuse to use a personal phone for work related stuff. Everyone runs that stupid phone erase poo poo these days. Not that I use a company phone either since our company phone policy is complete bullshit too, but that's another issue. Sundae fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Feb 21, 2015 |
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Feb 21, 2015 19:00
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