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Impermanent posted:D&D is the rocket booster that this hobby needed in order to get into the atmosphere. We can safely leave it behind now that Apocalypse World exists. D&D is the foundation stone of the hobby, the cornerstone it was built off of, and the anchor around its neck.
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Mar 3, 2015 06:00
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Alien Rope Burn posted:it was still a train of supplements with diminishing returns of value. I don't think I've ever played a game where the core system was just adequate and the game didn't get amazing until supplements came out. Are there games like that? (GURPS maybe?)
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Mar 3, 2015 06:47
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Impermanent posted:D&D is the rocket booster that this hobby needed in order to get into the atmosphere. We can safely leave it behind now that Apocalypse World exists. Yeah, D&D is basically the archetypal RPG, much like Superman is the archetypal superhero and the Sex Pistols are the archetypal punk band. What do all archetypes have in common?... They don't age well. 5e is making its debut in an era where there are dozens of games that capture the flavor of D&D better than D&D.
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Mar 3, 2015 06:47
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DalaranJ posted:I don't think I've ever played a game where the core system was just adequate and the game didn't get amazing until supplements came out. Are there games like that? I would say that playing 4E with just the core PHB would get kind of dull pretty quick, and for the brief period when it was just the corebook it was a little dull. There was some good stuff there already, and the foundations for a lot of stuff were already in place, but a lot of the fun options that people dig like Brawler Fighters and purely "Lazy Warlords" and Bards and Avengers and so on didn't get introduced until supplemental material started coming out. Oh, and the Monster Manual 3 and Monster Vault fixed a lot of the early issues with monster design. And the setting stuff (Astral Sea and Feywild and Underdark et al) was all generally decent to top notch. And Eberron and Dark Sun were both pretty pro choices. 4E's supplement treadmill wasn't perfect by any stretch...the Adventurer's Vault books were pretty loving dull, the published adventures didn't start approaching decent until near the end...but a lot of the player side stuff was honestly pretty good and managed to avoid introducing things that were game-breakingly bad. The PHB3 was where they started running out of steam, the classes besides the Monk weren't super inspired and power points are a bad fit with how 4E typically handles class abilities, and Essentials was a clear step down because (surprise surprise) that was Mike Mearls taking the wheel...but even then they managed to put out some decent stuff near the end with Heroes of the Feywild and such. So I would absolutely characterize 4E as an adequate game that truly came into its own thanks to further supplemental material expanding upon and enhancing what was already there. With the good stuff came feat bloat and, to a smaller degree, power bloat and that sucks and is one reason among many why it's a shame we won't ever get a 4.5E or a new edition that improves upon 4E's design instead of throwing it out with the bathwater.
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Mar 3, 2015 06:59
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Alien Rope Burn posted:Generally my major issue with 4e is that it's still D&D and so it was still a train of supplements with diminishing returns of value. And though it's a lot better than 3e for balance and optimization in that it's really hard to make an outright bad character, it's still very possible to make ridiculous min-maxed builds that nova or stunlock and reduce combat to a series of equations that just leave less math-divined characters twiddling their thumbs. I think there are fantastic lessons to be learned from it design-wise but it still carries a lot of baggage with it (the feat system, magic items, high-level play, overwhelming crunch, some clunky design in the core material, etc.) that keep me away. I'd love to play it seriously in tt at some point but that's probably never going to happen now. It's just too much of an investment for a single game both in terms of time and money. my major issue with 4e is that it's not TORG TORG TORG TORG TORG TORG? TORG TORG TORG. TORG, TORG TORG TOOOOOOORG~ like i don't even care about the content bc it sounds like a loving pokemon and that is a selling point for me games with titles that don't sound like pokemon are unworthy of my notice did i mention my favourite RPG, magmarsterhearts
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Mar 3, 2015 07:08
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Impermanent posted:D&D is the rocket booster that this hobby needed in order to get into the atmosphere. We can safely leave it behind now that Synnibarr exists.
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Mar 3, 2015 07:10
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DalaranJ posted:I don't think I've ever played a game where the core system was just adequate and the game didn't get amazing until supplements came out. Are there games like that? This basically sums up Dungeon World for me. The core playbooks are dull and uninspired, the steading rules are pointless, and the core book is unclear in more than a few places, but especially in DM advice. Dungeon World doesn't really come into its own until you start adding in all the cool supplemental playbooks other people have written. Hell, the main reason I wrote so many playbooks is because dungeon world core just could not do any of the fun things I wanted it to.
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Mar 3, 2015 07:11
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5th edition? 
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Mar 3, 2015 07:13
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gnome7 posted:This basically sums up Dungeon World for me. The core playbooks are dull and uninspired, the steading rules are pointless, and the core book is unclear in more than a few places, but especially in DM advice. Dungeon World doesn't really come into its own until you start adding in all the cool supplemental playbooks other people have written. Hell, the main reason I wrote so many playbooks is because dungeon world core just could not do any of the fun things I wanted it to. EDIT: Made a stupid shitpost and unwarranted PA. Sorry. Simian_Prime fucked around with this message at 10:19 on Mar 3, 2015 |
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Mar 3, 2015 07:29
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Simian_Prime posted:beep boop im a robot that cant have fun unless it fits the parameters of my autism spectrum please help uhhhhhhhhhhh i'm sorry someone doesn't like an elfgame on its own and talked about it but is ableist poo poo really necessary
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Mar 3, 2015 07:48
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gnome7 posted:This basically sums up Dungeon World for me. The core playbooks are dull and uninspired, the steading rules are pointless, and the core book is unclear in more than a few places, but especially in DM advice. Dungeon World doesn't really come into its own until you start adding in all the cool supplemental playbooks other people have written. Hell, the main reason I wrote so many playbooks is because dungeon world core just could not do any of the fun things I wanted it to. The moment one realizes that the reason there is more third party content for Dungeon World than any other PbtA game is not because it's the most popular of them is the moment they progress towards tabletop enlightenment.
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Mar 3, 2015 07:55
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Simian_Prime posted:beep boop im a robot that cant have fun unless it fits the parameters of my autism spectrum please help i'm not saying you should shut up but seriously shut the gently caress up
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Mar 3, 2015 08:00
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It really is funny how the playbooks for Apocalypse World can encapsulate character archetypes as diverse as "batman, luchador, Rorsharch, Jacket, Phantom of the Opera, Tuxedo Mask, Jim Carrey or Green Goblin." Meanwhile Dungeon World's playbooks with far more moves and text allow you to play "D&D fighter" or "D&D wizard."
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Mar 3, 2015 08:13
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Simian_Prime posted:beep boop im a robot that cant have fun unless it fits the parameters of my autism spectrum please help Well that came out of nowhere.
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Mar 3, 2015 08:13
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I also found the DW manual to be kind of boring, bit I haven't read it all yet so I am reserving judgement.
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Mar 3, 2015 08:39
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Impermanent posted:It really is funny how the playbooks for Apocalypse World can encapsulate character archetypes as diverse as "batman, luchador, Rorsharch, Jacket, Phantom of the Opera, Tuxedo Mask, Jim Carrey or Green Goblin." Meanwhile Dungeon World's playbooks with far more moves and text allow you to play "D&D fighter" or "D&D wizard." Hey, that's not fair. There are also like six dozen types of wizards. In this way, Dungeon World has succeeded at modeling the real-world experience of playing Dungeons & Dragons beyond what its creators could have possibly imagined.
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Mar 3, 2015 08:51
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Impermanent posted:It really is funny how the playbooks for Apocalypse World can encapsulate character archetypes as diverse as "batman, luchador, Rorsharch, Jacket, Phantom of the Opera, Tuxedo Mask, Jim Carrey or Green Goblin." Meanwhile Dungeon World's playbooks with far more moves and text allow you to play "D&D fighter" or "D&D wizard." That's mostly why I feel World of Dungeons is in some ways better than DW: if you're already playing a storygame, you really shouldn't weigh it down with heavy mechanical limits on what a player-character is capable of, much less the skewed limits of D&D's tropes.
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Mar 3, 2015 08:55
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Impermanent posted:It really is funny how the playbooks for Apocalypse World can encapsulate character archetypes as diverse as "batman, luchador, Rorsharch, Jacket, Phantom of the Opera, Tuxedo Mask, Jim Carrey or Green Goblin." Meanwhile Dungeon World's playbooks with far more moves and text allow you to play "D&D fighter" or "D&D wizard." It's not that surprising. The more moves and rules space you occupy the more specific you are, because by saying "This move lets you do X" you're also saying "Not having this move means you can't X". That's not even, necessarily, a strike against Dungeon World! It's just that the specific spaces are occupied by the most boring beige poo poo, I mean drat.
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Mar 3, 2015 09:02
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DW has always been and always will be a compromise. It's PbtA for D&D players.
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Mar 3, 2015 09:17
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I'm a sick weirdo, probably, but the whole Nemtsov affair has made me want to run a bleak, neo-noir CSI: Moscow game. Not sure yet if I'll go with the cold war's last throes, or country's freefall during Yeltsin's rule. Probably I'll end with whichever period I feel more well-versed in, in terms of little details.
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Mar 3, 2015 09:48
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I do agree that DW is vastly improved by throwing out the base playbooks and using third party content, mainly because it lends itself to more interesting types of fantasy than just D&D fantasy, but I think criticising DW for being too D&D is a bit uncharitable. The game always advertised it as D&D but with the PbtA system, and as D&D clones go it's perfectly serviceable and hell of fun even with just the base playbooks. That's not to say it's perfect, and I do agree with the sentiment that in places the game is actually worse off for cleaving too close to the tropes of D&D (like the separation of ability scores and modifiers). Incidentally, I like the fact that upcoming DW offshoots like Fellowship and Broken World are dealing with this in their own ways.
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Mar 3, 2015 10:01
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Yes, you should run a game of Cold City.
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Mar 3, 2015 10:03
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Has there ever been a public official that was known to play D&D?
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Mar 3, 2015 10:04
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Kai Tave posted:Well that came out of nowhere. You're right. gnome7, and all, I apologize. That was uncalled for. Having a really bad day/week, and trolling about elfgames doesn't help anybody. I think I need a break. Getting way too wrapped up in all this. Sorry, everybody.
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Mar 3, 2015 10:18
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Ratpick posted:I do agree that DW is vastly improved by throwing out the base playbooks and using third party content, mainly because it lends itself to more interesting types of fantasy than just D&D fantasy I don't agree that you improve DW by throwing out the base playbooks and replacing them with playbooks that aren't "D&D-esque." I do agree the base playbooks have a lot of issues and need a fair few changes to make them mechanically more interesting, and that doing this makes the game better, but like every good PbtA game, DW's design focus is very narrowly-focused (in this case, on "a game that plays like you think you remember BECMI-era D&D playing"). You need the spread of playbooks on offer to have a cohesive "flavour," and if you want to replace the base playbooks' "oldschool D&D dungeon crawling" flavour with something more interesting, you need to modify the basic moves to take that into account, because they're absolutely based around that flavour/mode of play (this is why all the non-combat rules are so insubstantial).
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Mar 3, 2015 10:45
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One time I got into a discussion about 4E with a dude on a forum who argued that because the Monster Manual had level 1 artillery kobolds, level 2 soldier kobolds and so on, every single kobold that was born started training with slings, then graduated to sword and shield and eventually would learn to use magic at level 3. Except with each transition they would forget everything they'd learned so far and even the wyrmpriest would forget all his magic and go back to swords once he became a level 4 slyblade.Kai Tave posted:for the most part if you're looking to recover HP outside of combat and aren't being harried by traps or something then you don't need a Cleric going around and tapping people on the head with Cure Light Wounds
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Mar 3, 2015 11:23
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My Lovely Horse posted:When my group played 3.5 the DM gave us a magic stone as a joke that if you hit someone with it they would heal 1 HP. The cleric kept that safe and after every battle would go around and bonk everyone on the head with it exactly as many times as they had HP missing. After one or two times I refused to have any further part in it both in and out of character. I DM 4E for these folks now; it's been 4-5 years and they still haven't adjusted.
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Mar 3, 2015 11:58
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Ningyou posted:my major issue with 4e is that it's not TORG TORG TORG TORG TORG TORG? TORG TORG TORG. TORG, TORG TORG TOOOOOOORG~ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyqGlpGCSho
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Mar 3, 2015 12:12
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grassy gnoll posted:Yes, you should run a game of Cold City. It was one of the first systems I've thought about, but I'll probably go with A Dirty World. Also, the late eighties. It also dawned on me that if I dig through my old university papers I should find a sizeable write-up on Russian cop slang and I can't help by wonder if some of the colour would survive translation to English.
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Mar 3, 2015 13:44
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Evil Mastermind posted:D&D is the foundation stone of the hobby, the cornerstone it was built off of, and the anchor around its neck. MadScientistWorking fucked around with this message at 15:35 on Mar 3, 2015 |
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Mar 3, 2015 15:29
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Impermanent posted:D&D is the rocket booster that this hobby needed in order to get into the atmosphere. We can safely leave it behind now that Apocalypse World exists.
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Mar 3, 2015 15:29
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I'm not really going to go on and on about how loving awesome AW is, but it revitalized my interest for gaming and made me a much better GM than I ever was before.
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Mar 3, 2015 15:31
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i'll never trust anyone so blatantly in the pocket of Big *World
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Mar 3, 2015 16:10
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Captain Foo posted:I'm not really going to go on and on about how loving awesome AW is, but it revitalized my interest for gaming and made me a much better GM than I ever was before. This ad brought to you by the lumpley brothers
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Mar 3, 2015 16:17
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Error 404 posted:This ad brought to you by the lumpley brothers i don't know who those people are
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Mar 3, 2015 16:22
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Captain Foo posted:i don't know who those people are Lumpley is Vince Baker's screen name. It is a Koch brothers joke...
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Mar 3, 2015 16:23
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head58 posted:I'm skipping through it going "I don't think this is really Dragonlance. I don't see anybody who looks like Tanis and that wizard is in a black robe and there's another guy in a black robe? And some chick in white OH MY GOD THIS ISNT JUST DRAGONLANCE THIS IS THE TIME OF THE TWINS TRILOGY!" Deep nerding! Legends Trilogy what did you think those black robes meant N000000000000000B (Thanks for nerding out with me)
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Mar 3, 2015 16:28
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Error 404 posted:Lumpley is Vince Baker's screen name. i get it now 
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Mar 3, 2015 16:33
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MadScientistWorking posted:Weirdly enough if you consider Apocalypse Engine games RPGs then D&D isn't the foundation. The cornerstone of those game are free form improv with completely new sets of jargon placed in which makes it less accessible than it should be. Nah dude I do improv. IThere's a resemblance between that and *World games but you're kidding yourself if you think these pulpy games are closer to improv than they D&D. They are a refinement of the collaborative storygame concept but it's not like people take year and a half long courses on how to properly yes, and a cleric. Now FIASCO is actually very close to writer's room exercises and stuff. That is a good candidate for improv-as-tabletop game.
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Mar 3, 2015 16:52
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Apocalypse World is definitely a continuation of the traditional design of games. If I'd put down a main differences, I'd say that its mechanics are less like a rigid script, and more like the lazzi of commedia del'arte, which is to say that they're semi-improvisational, iterated units.
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