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be nice wicka posted:did they not start doing that like two years ago? if not...why the gently caress not? why are they so passionate about copying the NFL for no reason other than they think they should copy the NFL? They're not copying the NFL "just because", they're doing it because North America is really big and some teams (particularly Western teams) hated all the extra travel a balanced schedule required. Frankly there isn't TIME between March and December for a balanced schedule AND FIFA dates AND playoffs (and they are not getting rid of the playoffs because MURICA). Why should they copy other soccer leagues for no reason other than because some people think they should copy them? There is nothing inherent to soccer that dictates "double round-robin schedule, no playoffs" is The One True Schedule Format, so why not experiment with things already known to work in the environment you are transplanting this sport to?
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Mar 10, 2015 16:46
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be nice wicka posted:yeah no none of you little shits have ever said that ever before, ever Be Nice, Wicka!!! guppy posted:We say it all the time, you dipshit. No one is more aware of the idiocies of MLS than we are, as the people who watch it. But it's what we have right now. There are also some distinct differences like the fact that we have individual states bigger than your entire country, which matters when there is far less money in our league, and traveling is expensive. Wicka is American. For real though, settle down. No need for name calling.
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Mar 10, 2015 16:46
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i think the league has to do whatever it needs to so it can stay solvent. soccer is surprisingly not all that popular in the united states and other american soccer leagues have collapsed decades before mls was a twinkle in anyone's eye. everyone here knows it's dumb as gently caress but as long as people can watch no one cares apparently besides you
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Mar 10, 2015 16:48
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Fucitol posted:i think the league has to do whatever it needs to so it can stay solvent. soccer is surprisingly not all that popular in the united states and other american soccer leagues have collapsed decades before mls was a twinkle in anyone's eye. everyone here knows it's dumb as gently caress but as long as people can watch no one cares apparently besides you nbc shows mls and premier league games on back to back on the same channel sometimes and the latter always gets 2-3 times the ratings. if their only concern is getting people to watch so they can survive then why shouldn't they emulate a league people are already watching and are comfortable with? there is a massive built-in audience willingly ignoring mls and they would get at least SOME converts if they made any attempt to appeal to them. instead they're doing everything they can to dissuade those fans from watching. why? what is the justification in that? they have made zero progress in convincing fans of other sports to start caring about soccer in between world cups and yet that continues to be apparently their only goal.
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Mar 10, 2015 16:53
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hold on here, chuck, i'm getting some breaking news *puts hand to earpiece* it turns out that americans consider mls to be inferior to other leagues and competitions. instead they would rather watch little league baseball or the multibillion dollar industry of the english premier league. i'll get you more as this develops from major league soccersville, i'm alexi lalas
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Mar 10, 2015 17:02
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Fucitol posted:hold on here, chuck, i'm getting some breaking news *puts hand to earpiece* No, I think it is because people are just tired of Twellman talking about concussions all the time. There is only so much head into a goalpost chat that any one person can handle.
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Mar 10, 2015 17:03
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Dallan Invictus posted:They're not copying the NFL "just because", they're doing it because North America is really big and some teams (particularly Western teams) hated all the extra travel a balanced schedule required. Frankly there isn't TIME between March and December for a balanced schedule AND FIFA dates AND playoffs (and they are not getting rid of the playoffs because MURICA). 2015 MLS season: 34 games. double round-robin: 38 games. they absolutely have time for this. conferences should be introduced if and when the league becomes so big it requires them. they should not exist just because, again, they wanted to copy all the other american leagues. i really don't care about playoffs either way. some seasons, like 2014, it would have been awesome not to have them as the season came down to the final day. other seasons the regular season blows and the playoffs are great. playoffs are good when they are good and bad when they are bad and i've yet to hear why either system is clearly better than the other. however, there's literally zero indication that americans demand playoffs beyond garber assuming that they do. and regardless of the league (MLB does this now too, i think) any playoff system where over half the league qualifies is just dumb. Dallan Invictus posted:Why should they copy other soccer leagues for no reason other than because some people think they should copy them? There is nothing inherent to soccer that dictates "double round-robin schedule, no playoffs" is The One True Schedule Format, so why not experiment with things already known to work in the environment you are transplanting this sport to? why not run the league in a way that it's been proven, over an entire century, that soccer leagues can be run successfully? why not start with that base and THEN experiment? why set your league up in a way that, by default, alienates millions of people who already watch the product you're selling? is it not easier to sell MLS to soccer fans that to sell soccer to NFL fans? you're saying you should set up an american sports league like an american sports league. i'm saying you should set up a soccer league like a soccer league. there is no clear winner in that argument until you realize that people are waking up at 7:45am on their weekends to watch the latter and are completely ignoring the former. MLS is wrong in this regard, clearly.
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Mar 10, 2015 17:04
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be nice wicka posted:do you think the bundesliga emulates the premier league? or are they both just soccer leagues and not baseball leagues and thus organized like a soccer league and not like a baseball league? actually until the 60's the 'top level' in germany was a bunch of regional conferences so yeah they kinda did emulate the english first division, in a sense
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Mar 10, 2015 17:07
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Azerban posted:actually until the 60's the 'top level' in germany was a bunch of regional conferences that's seemed to work well for them
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Mar 10, 2015 17:09
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El Jebus posted:No, I think it is because people are just tired of Twellman talking about concussions all the time. There is only so much head into a goalpost chat that any one person can handle.  except replace "concussion chat" with "taylor twellman is absolutely terrible in all regards."
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Mar 10, 2015 17:11
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i've noticed that twellman will occasionally just get angrily quiet when someone hits their head and isn't subbed off, rather than complaining about it for 10 minutes. i think that's a compromise we can all get behind.
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Mar 10, 2015 17:15
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Fucitol posted:i think the league has to do whatever it needs to so it can stay solvent. soccer is surprisingly not all that popular in the united states and other american soccer leagues have collapsed decades before mls was a twinkle in anyone's eye. everyone here knows it's dumb as gently caress but as long as people can watch no one cares apparently besides you the constant insistence from several people that single table will make the league insolvent is really weird
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Mar 10, 2015 17:17
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be nice wicka posted:i've noticed that twellman will occasionally just get angrily quiet when someone hits their head and isn't subbed off, rather than complaining about it for 10 minutes. i think that's a compromise we can all get behind. Yeah, I was expecting a giant tirade when Saunders smacked his head but it was just a few sentences. I don't know if it's him or if ESPN told him to can it for a while.
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Mar 10, 2015 17:17
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Gigi Galli posted:Be Nice, Wicka!!! #ThereWillBeHaters I'm loving that Houston is ranked 13th on the all-important MLS Power Rankings (brought to you by Sierra Mist). I don't mean that sarcastically. I really enjoy the fact that Houston is chronically undervalued by soccer media that is not locally-based. It keeps pressure off the players and it's enjoyable when people are shocked that lowly Houston manages to play like a team better than they are perceived to be. Here's your rankings for Week 1: http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/artic...campaign=Unpaid
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Mar 10, 2015 17:18
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be nice wicka posted:i'm saying you should set up a soccer league like a soccer league. By the way, do you know where I can return this world map? I can't find Scotland or Mexico on it anywhere
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Mar 10, 2015 17:18
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be nice wicka posted:2015 MLS season: 34 games. double round-robin: 38 games. they absolutely have time for this. conferences should be introduced if and when the league becomes so big it requires them. they should not exist just because, again, they wanted to copy all the other american leagues. The league didn't switch away from a balanced schedule to copy other American leagues for shits and giggles, they switched away from a balanced schedule to encourage regional play because in America, unlike in basically every other country in the world besides Russia (and even the Russians complain about the travel whenever a Siberian team makes the top flight), the associated travel is long, arduous and expensive. This is not even conjecture if you read the statements made by league and team officials at the time. be nice wicka posted:why not run the league in a way that it's been proven, over an entire century, that soccer leagues can be run successfully? why not start with that base and THEN experiment? why set your league up in a way that, by default, alienates millions of people who already watch the product you're selling? is it not easier to sell MLS to soccer fans that to sell soccer to NFL fans? Which is more likely: a) Americans who watch European soccer don't watch MLS because the players aren't as good? b) Americans who watch European soccer don't watch MLS because there are conferences and an unbalanced schedule? Bonus question: Which group is larger? a) Americans who watch European soccer but don't watch MLS? b) Americans who don't watch soccer but might be open to it if they don't have to wake up at 7:45 AM on a Saturday? Think like a soulless business executive when you answer these questions and you will understand 90% of everything MLS does. Your constant refrain that no, really, casual soccer fans Care Deeply about scheduling and conference structures is loving mystifying to me. Dallan Invictus fucked around with this message at 17:22 on Mar 10, 2015 |
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Mar 10, 2015 17:20
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be nice wicka posted:why not run the league in a way that it's been proven, over an entire century, that soccer leagues can be run successfully? why not start with that base and THEN experiment? why set your league up in a way that, by default, alienates millions of people who already watch the product you're selling? is it not easier to sell MLS to soccer fans that to sell soccer to NFL fans? Do you really think the low viewership is because "How dare the MLS use conferences?" It's waaaaaay more likely people think "MLS is bad I'm not going to watch it." There is zero chance there are actual literal millions of people who would be more than happy to watch the MLS if if played double round robin but choose not to because of conference. Do you make the same argument about the Brazilian domestic league? Having both a national league and a state league is pretty wonky, after all!
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Mar 10, 2015 17:22
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Hungryjack posted:#ThereWillBeHaters I was talking to my parents who just went to their first Timbers game post joining MLS and we were chatting about which teams were good. I mentioned that KC and Houston were just going to make the West that much harder and they both asked if Houston was really that good. No one thinks about Houston as being good until they play them.
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Mar 10, 2015 17:23
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Alain Post posted:the constant insistence from several people that single table will make the league insolvent is really weird please find the part in that quote where i said single table makes the league insolvent because i can't find it
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Mar 10, 2015 17:24
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chaoslord posted:Do you really think the low viewership is because "How dare the MLS use conferences?" It's waaaaaay more likely people think "MLS is bad I'm not going to watch it." There is zero chance there are actual literal millions of people who would be more than happy to watch the MLS if if played double round robin but choose not to because of conference. Do you make the same argument about the Brazilian domestic league? Having both a national league and a state league is pretty wonky, after all! A league system where most of the teams make the playoffs encourages mediocre squads. It's maybe not a direct effect, but I think it certainly hurts the quality of play.
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Mar 10, 2015 17:26
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Maybe if they want people to watch their stupid loving league they should set up a single website where you can watch all the games instead of this patchwork of blackouts and lovely regional tv stations and espn and whatever the gently caress Then worry about divisions/brackets/playoffs
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Mar 10, 2015 17:27
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El Jebus posted:I was talking to my parents who just went to their first Timbers game post joining MLS and we were chatting about which teams were good. I mentioned that KC and Houston were just going to make the West that much harder and they both asked if Houston was really that good. No one thinks about Houston as being good until they play them. In fairness, Houston was mediocre at home last season and absolutely horrible on the road. People from other cities who see Houston play away games may not be undervaluing the Dynamo. So far so good, though. I'll know better after the first away game. Owen Coyle widened the field at BBVA stadium by three yards on each side and it should be interesting to see how that plays. Also, I wonder if Dom Kinnear narrowed the field in San Jose versus last season.
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Mar 10, 2015 17:31
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the guy who suggested that MLS' system is justified because scotland also has a silly league...okGigi Galli posted:Yeah, I was expecting a giant tirade when Saunders smacked his head but it was just a few sentences. I don't know if it's him or if ESPN told him to can it for a while. same. it got really uncomfortable after awhile, i expected him to explode. Dallan Invictus posted:Which is more likely: have you ever talked to anyone who watches european soccer but not MLS? i think you would be surprised. question 1: A, BUT, the fact that the level of play improves massively every year is clouded by the fact that so much of what the league does gives it a very minor league feel. no one even gets to the point of judging the players, or giving the players a second chance, because everything else about MLS turns them off. 2: the amount of people in group A who could be convinced to watch MLS is several orders of magnitude larger than that segment of group B. there is absolutely no way to defend the decision to appeal to non-soccer fans before you've even tried to establish your foundation of people who already watch the god drat sport.
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Mar 10, 2015 17:32
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be nice wicka posted:have you ever talked to anyone who watches european soccer but not MLS? i think you would be surprised. have you? they're awful
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Mar 10, 2015 17:36
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Azerban posted:have you? they're awful thank you for your valuable input
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Mar 10, 2015 17:37
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Azerban posted:have you? they're awful You should leave Wicka alone, he is just asking the hard questions.
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Mar 10, 2015 17:40
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i will summarize my stupid opinions: i think MLS's players, fans and stadia are american soccer's greatest accomplishments so far, but MLS' league structure and executive are its greatest embarrassments, and everything the former has achieved has been in spite of the latter, not because of it
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Mar 10, 2015 17:46
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has anyone else noticed that there's no such thing as an american albion supporter or a swansea city supporter yet there's loads of man united, arsenal and chelsea supporters? thoughts?
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Mar 10, 2015 17:47
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be nice wicka posted:the guy who suggested that MLS' system is justified because scotland also has a silly league...ok The point is that "soccer leagues that work" is not a synonym for 'soccer leagues whose structures wicka likes". Unless you are arguing that Liga MX is not "a successful league", in which case lol. MLS would kill for Liga MX levels of non-success. quote:have you ever talked to anyone who watches european soccer but not MLS? i think you would be surprised. I knew this sounded familiar and it was because I had this argument with you literally four and a half years ago and defended this specific decision then. Dallan Invictus posted:MLS is trying to turn American sports fans onto soccer instead of trying to turn soccer fans onto American soccer which is, let's be honest, an inferior (if getting better!) level of play to what one can easily watch if you're willing to deal with irritating time zone issues. Some people care enough about growing the North American game for this skill disparity not to matter to them, but most of those people are already watching. For MLS to be able to afford players that can credibly compete with the skill level that people can already watch in Europe, it needs to grow its audience enough that TV revenues get on the level of even the NHL, let alone the NFL. Until that happens, people that prefer European soccer for its skill level probably won't watch. Certain decisions follow from this.
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Mar 10, 2015 17:49
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i became an arsenal fan solely because i was gifted a hat for christmas like three years ago and so it was the only thing that actually got me starting to follow the PL people just latch on to the first team that is both successful and seemingly suits their personality. i see lots of "You'll Never Walk Alone" on profiles of people who don't even own a passport let alone have ever been to scouserland. e: for better context, i honestly didn't watch ANY soccer until three or four years ago. i went from zero to big huge fan very quickly
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Mar 10, 2015 17:51
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Dallan Invictus posted:The point is that "soccer leagues that work" is not a synonym for 'soccer leagues whose structures wicka likes". Unless you are arguing that Liga MX is not "a successful league", in which case lol. MLS would kill for Liga MX levels of non-success. the point is that the scottish league doesn't work, it is a joke, it has two relevant teams and one went bankrupt. if you are using it as justification for what MLS does then your ignorance is astounding and you have no part to play in this conversation.
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Mar 10, 2015 17:51
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come to think of it actually, I think Landon Donovan's Big Goal™ in 2010 is what kickstarted my interest in soccer and then the Arsenal hat came shortly after
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Mar 10, 2015 17:53
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Even though he's saying unpopular things, I'm glad we have wicka back in this thread.
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Mar 10, 2015 17:53
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Fucitol posted:loads of man united All this talk about playoffs reminds me that back when the NHL had 20 teams, 16 made the playoffs. They actually had playoffs within their four divisions.
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Mar 10, 2015 17:55
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loads of men, united
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Mar 10, 2015 17:58
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Also people watch EPL on TV then go to MLS games in person.
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Mar 10, 2015 17:59
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You're doing it wrong, Dallan. You make the troll write a whole bunch of stuff and then you reply with just enough content to get him to write a whole bunch of other stuff that you won't read.
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Mar 10, 2015 18:07
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Hungryjack posted:You're doing it wrong, Dallan. You make the troll write a whole bunch of stuff and then you reply with just enough content to get him to write a whole bunch of other stuff that you won't read. right. and you also HAVE to make sure to call me a troll, otherwise i struggle to get riled up.
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Mar 10, 2015 18:09
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Wow. And here I thought we were done with this. Anyone want to get in on a pro/rel discussion? We haven't beaten that desiccated corpse enough yet, have we? Or is this just wicka's usual 'Start of the Season Bitchfest'? I swear we do this every year dude. You come in here whining about how our league will never be viable or any good until we do exactly as you say and you talk up how good some poo poo players from Indiana are. Can we skip it? We have conferences because Portland, Vancouver, San Jose, Seattle, LA, New York, New York, Orlando, and Boston do not want to incur the cost and time of travel between those cities. Vancouver to Orlando sucks. It is 700 miles farther than London to Moscow. Have you heard the whining Champions League teams make when they have to fly anywhere for a matchday? We have to do that poo poo for our closest team. gently caress that. gently caress 8hr flights just so you can have your precious way. We're going to do our poo poo our own way and guess what wicka? We don't care what your opinion is anymore. We've proven to make money without you by converting non-sports fans into MLS fans. So please, carry on for another couple pages and then disappear until next season where we will do this again.
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Mar 10, 2015 18:14
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Fucitol posted:loads of men, united
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Mar 10, 2015 18:15
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