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You do realize G-Reco only has one episode left? It's a 26 episode show, not 50. Even that aside, it's not the amount of information revealed I have a problem with so much, it's the pace it's revealed at and how sparse the time and focus on a lot of stuff has been. There could have been much more done with the various locales they visited for one, like Venus, Towasanga and even a couple of the nuts from the orbital elevator and the various SU-Cord ships.
tsob fucked around with this message at 15:47 on Mar 23, 2015 |
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Mar 23, 2015 15:44
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... Huh. Thought it was gonna be 50-ish eps. Oh well, guess I got a good reason to go back and marathon it now.
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Mar 23, 2015 17:44
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Is it just me or is Clawshrimpy noticeably a better poster just from the "shut up about GGG" rule alone?
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Mar 23, 2015 17:47
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Nope. I thought his review of the first episode of King Gainer read like dozens of other reviews of episodes/shows I've seen on the site frankly. The fact he's started to recognize he was misinformed in the Super Robot thread has helped a good bit too.
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Mar 23, 2015 17:50
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Motto posted:Did they run out of money for that game? Because I saw that the first part was 3D, but then the last one was a sprite-based RPG Maker thing. The first two parts were done by one developer, who they had some kind of a falling out with, then the third and fourth parts were done by the guys who did Breath of Death VII and Cthulhu Saves the World. The 2D sprite based look fits what they wanted a bit better then the janky 3D stuff, IMO.
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Mar 23, 2015 22:14
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Okay, it's time to talk about the second episode, I think. Now, I have to admit, I'm considerably more nervous about this write-up, mostly because I do not have a lot of nice words for this episode. The rules of the challenge say I have to be honest, so I can't just sit here grinning pretending I like everything about the show and ignore what I dislike or find un-nerving. Overman King Gainer Episode 2 Before I actually talk about other things that happen in the episode, I feel I have to explain why I really dislike the direction taken with Gainer's character this episode, it's simply an unavoidable problem I have with the episode that I simply can't ignore. So after Gainer catches his breath and stuff after not feeling good after piloting the Overman, It's revealed that Gain got caught by the SIberian Railway on purpose to help cause the Exodus, for..... SOME REASON Gainer gets really upset and indignant about this, and walks up and tries to hit Gain, the guy who got him out of prison and helped him out, several times until Gain is forced to knock him out in self-defense, going on about he hates the Exodus, yet in the first episode he seemed pretty okay with the idea of the Exodus then so...... Yes, I know when talking about other shows I've talked about how I feel about characters on the same side (especially the good guys side) attacking each other and poo poo to death. And honestly? At first, I was willing to overlook it. That complaining about this type of stuff is what got me in trouble so much when I tried to explain why I didn't like certain other shows and the like. So at first I wanted to stop myself, and put this particular thing aside as though it never happened, and write it off as Gainer just reacting to have been lied to a bit too hastily because he was exausted still. But Gainer keeps up this awkward antagonism towards people who SHOULD be his new allies! Firstly, why does he hate the Exodus so much now, just by being tricked over a really minor thing? He seemed pretty cool of going along with the Exodus in the first episode! Anyway, he gets onto the Bachlone (sp?) thing that part of the Exodus convoy, and he starts being a gigantic jerk to everyone. First, it takes the poor mechanic kid several asks just to finally wring a "Sorry for making you have to clean up my puke" out of Gainer, and this is after He goes on about how he hates Exodus, and that he doesn't want to leave Domepolis. But it gets even better! He's insisting that the Overman is his property and he's taking it back with him! "I used it once and wrote my name on it, therefore is it mine! Despite how bad you might need it, I don't want to use it to help you." And he only helps BECAUSE the Railway army attacks at a convenient time! I mean, I get it, he's supposed to be the only one who Pilots the titular mecha, but they could've came up with something that doesn't make Gainer a huge selfish jerk. I mean gently caress even GUNDAM SEED at least came up with the whole "The Strike's OS is so obtuse only a Coordinator like Kira could pilot it, and when a Natural tried he failed." but having the main character going "IT'S MINE I SIGNED MY NAME ON IT" is so petty and melodramatic that it's ridiculous. What reason would Gainer have to stay at his home? Wouldn't they just throw him in jail again? Plus if keeping his super cool robot he named after himself is so important, I don't think the Railway army is just going to let him keep it, because of the little problem that it's stolen. When I'm pretty sure Exodus would totally still let him pilot the thing if he just plays along with his new comrades and helps out with the Exodus. I guess he comes to that realization sort of and the end, where he proclaims that he's leaving! As soon as he's paid his debt to Gain so he can go back home with that stolen robot that's totally his because he wrote his name on stolen property. Look, I liked Gainer as a character in the first episode, it's just.... god they took his character in such an unlikable direction this episode. But obviously, that's not all that happens in the episode, though. Thankfully, when Gainer is out there fighting, his jerk persona does go away and his more awkward but willing personality from the first episode returns. Sara, his classmate does get to give him a few good "what the hell!" moments, which he TOTALLY had coming and it's completely deserved. And as much as I do hate millitary force villains, I really like Jin. I like his personality, he isn't just a yelly brute force type and shows himself to be pretty clever. His Overman, Rush Rod (what is it with Tomino coming up with the worst names imaginable for things?) is pretty cool and has loving bellows that shoot fire and on top of that, since I'm watching the subs, he's voiced by a Japanese voice actor I very much recognize. Also, the Duke shows up to try and get his daugther back and to plead with everyone to please come back and to not go, and it's revealed they need people to stay in the dome because they need to be able to sell food and supplies to people. So it's not only tolitarian control and being able to imprison anyone they don't like, but the Exodus would also break up this little Cartel they have going. No wonder their willing to squander most of their profits on building robots to keep people inside, Gotta spend money to make money, I suppose. I should clarify that I didn't hate this episode, the other stuff and worldbuilding were fine! I just really, really didn't like the direction they decided to take the main character this episode. Clawshrimpy fucked around with this message at 23:44 on Mar 23, 2015 |
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Mar 23, 2015 23:39
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Gainer has a good reason to dislike the exodus and the people who run it.
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Mar 23, 2015 23:42
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I was honestly expecting you to dislike Gain moreso than Gainer after that episode because the second episode established Gain as a guy who is all for the ends justify the means and using people to make sure the exodus goes smoothly. Gainer responds pretty believably for a teen who just had their life ruined (im sure it didnt help when gainer asked gain "are you the reason i was thrown in prison" and he responded dismissively) and was tricked into doing terrorism.
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Mar 23, 2015 23:48
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Sharkopath posted:Gainer has a good reason to dislike the exodus and the people who run it.
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Mar 23, 2015 23:50
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That was a good write up Shrimpy and I am glad that you understood to just pour it all on the page. We are here to talk about your thoughts, positive or negative, and if you come out of this somehow hating the show, as long as you have had reasonable discussion and are willing and able to see what the other side thinks and why we like it, then it is still a good thing! Sharkopath is right in that there may, in fact, be more to Gainer than the show tells you at first (more than nothing? what a shock) and understanding his vehement reaction may take a little. The reason he goes along with Gain is mostly convenience: He's been imprisoned for a crime that he is A) innocent of and B) has a big moral problem with. He's desperate to get out, and then when attacked by the forces during the theft of the Overman is forced into self defence. He's running on adrenaline during that whole first episode, and even into the second when he confronts Gain. He's young, jacked up on adrenaline and very clearly not a rational actor, so while I understand wanting to judge him as a person for how he behaves (even if I would disagree with that judgement, or judging him at all) it is important to note context when a character does a certain thing a certain way. What is right? What is wrong? Are they malleable? These are all part of the human condition and Tomino likes to explore them in his works, though not very heavily in this one so don't worry about any TominoGundam stuff. Did anything said in this episode harken back to episode one in a way that seemed like a promising thematic lead to you? That is to say, were there any statements that seemed to be related to previous ones, and made in a way that seems to indicate that it's a topic of interest for the show to explore rather than a passing idea? EDIT: Gainer, like all humans, has a past of some sort that motivates his current behaviour. As newcomers to his world, we don't know that past yet, but perhaps one day we will if we just sit tight!
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Mar 23, 2015 23:53
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Clever Spambot posted:I was honestly expecting you to dislike Gain moreso than Gainer after that episode because the second episode established Gain as a guy who is all for the ends justify the means and using people to make sure the exodus goes smoothly. I dunno, the Siberian Railway make it pretty clear that even before you actually commit terrorism it's perfectly okay to throw you in jail even when you're not even guilty. I think between Gain and them, it's a lesser of two evils here.
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Mar 23, 2015 23:55
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Yes, i do consider Gain better than a fascist state that wants to keep people trapped in a dome so they can continue collecting their taxes and selling them stuff, but that does not make him necessarily a good person even if he clearly has his reasons for doing what he is doing.
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Mar 23, 2015 23:59
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Clawshrimpy posted:What reason? That the Siberian Railway, the people who wrongfully imprisoned him told him so over radio propaganda? It's a part of his history that is revealed as the series progresses but I think it's worthwhile to keep in mind that as much as the railway is willing to go to almost any length to ensure their plans and schemes can proceed, so is the exodus.
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Mar 24, 2015 00:05
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Clever Spambot posted:Yes, i do consider Gain better than a fascist state that wants to keep people trapped in a dome so they can continue collecting their taxes and selling them stuff, but that does not make him necessarily a good person even if he clearly has his reasons for doing what he is doing. I suppose not, and maybe it wouldn't be as big of a deal if Gainer didn't decide to extend his jerk attitude to the others and not just Gain. I mean not apoligizing for "hey you kinda had a big bout of nausea in here, it was pretty gross!" until you get bothered by it enough to offer a weak apology just seems like a rude thing to do. But at least he didn't act too bad during the actual fight, though.
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Mar 24, 2015 00:05
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There's also a standard conflict in writing: are your characters tools for the author's message (in which case their actions aren't always as natural) or is the author writing the action as motivated by the people it's focused on. There's usually a mix of the two, really, depending on what kind of story it is. It's one of the reasons why people don't always like the way Evangelion keeps hammering its characters down to have philosophical discussions, or why Final Fantasy 8 gets ragged on sometimes for being a little more character-driven when most other FF games are plot-driven. Both are very valid ways to write, but usually people prefer one or the other, assuming they notice.
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Mar 24, 2015 00:17
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Paper Lion posted:That was a good write up Shrimpy and I am glad that you understood to just pour it all on the page. We are here to talk about your thoughts, positive or negative, and if you come out of this somehow hating the show, as long as you have had reasonable discussion and are willing and able to see what the other side thinks and why we like it, then it is still a good thing! I suppose so, it's just jarring because I did really like him in the first episode, and now he flips around to being almost like one of the kind of mecha protagonists I don't like at all, the one who pushes back against everyone around them in a burst of anger despite them not actually meaning them harm at all, like Shinn from SEED Destiny or Kamille from Zeta. Clawshrimpy fucked around with this message at 00:21 on Mar 24, 2015 |
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Mar 24, 2015 00:19
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I gotta ask this, because it's something I've noticed about Shrimpy and I'm wondering just how true it is, but have you ever liked a character in a show that you wouldn't like as a person in real life Shrimpy? Because you seem unable to separate the two in your posts. I also don't think you really ever consider how context or history influences a character at any given moment as Paper Lion indicated. You seem to expect everyone to be nice all the time essentially, which isn't how people act in reality, never mind in fiction. Gainer is upset about being essentially drafted in to something that has taken him out of his rather comfortable and happy life. Sure, it was life under a rather lovely system, but he had never been exposed to it's shittiness till that point so he had no real reason to care. So he's striking out in anger about his life being so upturned against the people he feels have unfairly tricked him in to it. It doesn't make sense in the abstract, but people don't act rationally all the time and he may get over it if you give him time. tsob fucked around with this message at 00:24 on Mar 24, 2015 |
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Mar 24, 2015 00:22
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Clawshrimpy posted:like Shinn from SEED Destiny or Kamille from Zeta. Ive not seen SEED Destiny in a while, and its a poorly written show anyway, but Kamille is a super bad example of this. Zeta is almost wall to wall Kamille being poo poo on and used by people, any pushback he does is both believable and (alot of the time) warranted. edit: i guess except for when he tried to punch jared at the start of the show for making fun of his name but jared is an rear end in a top hat anyway.
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Mar 24, 2015 00:26
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tsob posted:I gotta ask this, because it's something I've noticed about Shrimpy and I'm wondering just how true it is, but have you ever liked a character in a show that you wouldn't like as a person in real life Shrimpy? Because you seem unable to separate the two in your posts. I also don't think you really ever consider how context or history influences a character at any given moment as Paper Lion indicated. You seem to expect everyone to be nice all the time essentially, which isn't how people act in reality, never mind in fiction. Yeah, but the characters I did like that way had one thing in common, they were antagonists, not protagonists. And the only reason I'm okay with Gain is I don't think what he did was all that bad compared to some other anti-hero/IMO outright villainous protagonists I've seen before. Clawshrimpy fucked around with this message at 00:37 on Mar 24, 2015 |
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Mar 24, 2015 00:35
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He hit jarid because he made fun of his name, and he has a boy named sue complex going on that is used as a shorthand to show Kamille has a bit of an inferiority issue and wants to prove himself as a capable adult that should be respected. His transition into adulthood, and the removal of the wool over his eyes and understanding of the world around him are the core theme of the show, so setting that up via jerid was a rock solid choice that made sense both in character and from a story craftsmanship stance
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Mar 24, 2015 00:36
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Jarid is my favorite character in Zeta and i like every part of the show that has to do with him.
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Mar 24, 2015 00:38
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Paper Lion posted:Did anything said in this episode harken back to episode one in a way that seemed like a promising thematic lead to you? That is to say, were there any statements that seemed to be related to previous ones, and made in a way that seems to indicate that it's a topic of interest for the show to explore rather than a passing idea? I think maybe the line Gainer says when fighting with Adette in the first episode about "Is this really how grownups do things?" ducktailing into his huge grudge with Gain, maybe?
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Mar 24, 2015 00:45
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Clawshrimpy posted:I think maybe the line Gainer says when fighting with Adette in the first episode about "Is this really how grownups do things?" ducktailing into his huge grudge with Gain, maybe? I actually have not seen King Gainer (though I really should) but I wouldn't be surprised if that's a thematically important line. A lot of Tomino's shows do have some clash of new vs. old ideals, just to varying degrees and scales. Some like Turn A apply it to entire world philosophies, like Gym wanting to bring about war like it was during the Black History opposed to Loran's defense of the current era's peace. Others make it much more personal like in Zeta, ZZ, and Char's Counterattack where you have friction between younger characters and older ones over things that should be done/shouldn't have been done.
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Mar 24, 2015 01:09
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People don't generally react super well when others abuse or take advantage of them. It's natural to dislike gainer for acting out in this way, but having some personal dislike for the way he acts doesn't mean he's a bad person, or that his actions aren't, too some extent, justified.
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Mar 24, 2015 01:15
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Clawshrimpy, just curious: is it unacceptable for characters to act in mean or cruel ways? It's one thing if the show glorifies it or treats it as okay, but the show's not really on Gainer's side. It presents his reaction as understandable, but it doesn't make him one hundred percent in the right. Sometimes people, even people who are usually wonderful, can lash out in anger or confusion. It's part of the human condition. I don't think Gainer having an extreme reaction to an extreme situation - having literally everything he knows uprooted just due to his name - makes him unlikable or a bad person, especially since he's already shown coming around. It just makes him human.
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Mar 24, 2015 01:35
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NecroMonster posted:People don't generally react super well when others abuse or take advantage of them. I suppose so, but consider in Gurren Lagann that Kamina did much, much worse things to Simon and Simon took it and allowed Kamina to change him so readily, and yet that's supposed to be completely okay, but Gain, someone who actually didn't do much other than not be completely straightforward with Gainer is apparently way more of a monster than Kamina was? Simon had way more of a reason to stand up to Kamina and he never, ever did. And Consider that I don't think Gain is the type who'd bother to push his agenda, whatever it might be on Gainer, and would be more like "hey as long as you keep the Railway army off our back I'll give you food and a home and let you keep using the robot anyway, and when this is all over you can keep it. After all, it's should be clear to you now how the Railway treats it's citizens."
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Mar 24, 2015 01:44
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Endorph posted:Clawshrimpy, just curious: is it unacceptable for characters to act in mean or cruel ways? It's one thing if the show glorifies it or treats it as okay, but the show's not really on Gainer's side. It presents his reaction as understandable, but it doesn't make him one hundred percent in the right. Sometimes people, even people who are usually wonderful, can lash out in anger or confusion. It's part of the human condition. I don't think Gainer having an extreme reaction to an extreme situation - having literally everything he knows uprooted just due to his name - makes him unlikable or a bad person, especially since he's already shown coming around. It just makes him human. Well, I just didn't think Gainer needed to react like this, certain have some angst about it, certainly maybe be apprehensive, maybe hesitate to go out to fight the second time, but why the big melodramatic shitshow?
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Mar 24, 2015 01:48
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Did Kamina really do that much bad to Simon, though? He punched him, like, once, in a crisis situation where everyone was on edge and he needed Simon to move or they were all going to die. He threw rocks at Simon, but he never actually *hit* Simon with one so it was pretty clearly just him going overboard with practice and not him literally trying to kill Simon. Like, Kamina was rough with Simon, but he was never actually abusive or tore Simon down.
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Mar 24, 2015 01:50
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Endorph posted:Did Kamina really do that much bad to Simon, though? He punched him, like, once, in a crisis situation where everyone was on edge and he needed Simon to move or they were all going to die. He threw rocks at Simon, but he never actually *hit* Simon with one so it was pretty clearly just him going overboard with practice and not him literally trying to kill Simon. In the very second episode Kamina was very passive aggressive with Simon for running away. When Kamina didn't physically abuse him, he was verbally abusing him, with either passive-aggressive poo poo about being a coward, or just plain yelling about how YOU MUST ALLWAYS BE A MAN. Nothing Gain did to Gainer was even remotely that bad to warrant that reaction.
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Mar 24, 2015 01:52
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Gain specifically engineered a situation where Gainer would have no choice but to either go with him or die/go to prison, i know you seemed to have interpreted the Kamina/Simon relationship as being super abusive for some reason but they are actually shown to love each other like brothers and the culmination of simons character development is not becoming more like kamina but becoming better than him (because kamina was an overly macho sexist idiot). In contrast, gain does not give a poo poo whether this kid lives or dies and just used him to steal a robot and hoped to have an extra body to throw in between him and the enemy.
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Mar 24, 2015 01:52
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I just want to lay this out. Kamina was ready to die for Simon and wanted nothing more than to be a role model for him and to try and help him grow up to be the kind of man he never felt he could really be, for which he used mild physical violence and shouting as a means to end, to train him and to help him become less nervous, introverted and fearful. Gain caused Gainer to get dicked over by his government even before he met him, then basically shanghai'd him in to a guerrilla resistance in a rather callous manner and expected him to just accept that the Railway was corrupt and he was better off with them so long as he earned his way, despite how big and more than anything, sudden a change all this was to him while making it clear he didn't care one way or another about Gainer beyond his usefulness. And you're saying that Kamina is the monster and Gainer is just a misunderstood soul who is getting treated unfairly. I just want to be clear on this, because this is why everyone is so convinced your relationship with the brother you may or may not have is such a huge influence on your view of characters and is just kind of fed up with discussing Kamina/GL with you. Nothing Kamina did is that bad in the eyes of the vast majority of the population, either in action or intent - just the opposite in fact. And yet you constantly rant and rave about it, making it out to be a heinous crime on the order of the Nazis in apparently un-ironic displays of hyperbole. tsob fucked around with this message at 01:59 on Mar 24, 2015 |
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Mar 24, 2015 01:56
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Clawshrimpy posted:Well, I just didn't think Gainer needed to react like this, certain have some angst about it, certainly maybe be apprehensive, maybe hesitate to go out to fight the second time, but why the big melodramatic shitshow? Because he is an adrenaline fueled hormonal teenager. It's sort of what they do when put into extreme situations, or in some teenagers cases, any situations at all. Teenagers tend to grow out of it though and look back and go "gee I sure was being a tool." There's a good chance your protagonist will grow up and reflect similarly!
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Mar 24, 2015 01:57
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Clawshrimpy posted:In the very second episode Kamina was very passive aggressive with Simon for running away. When Kamina didn't physically abuse him, he was verbally abusing him, with either passive-aggressive poo poo about being a coward, or just plain yelling about how YOU MUST ALLWAYS BE A MAN. Clawshrimpy posted:Well, I just didn't think Gainer needed to react like this, certain have some angst about it, certainly maybe be apprehensive, maybe hesitate to go out to fight the second time, but why the big melodramatic shitshow? If someone's consistently a melodramatic rear end in a top hat, then sure, you can call them a bad person, or at least self-absorbed - but just a few moments in reaction to an extreme situation doesn't make someone a bad person. I haven't read the super robot thread much, but from what I can tell you have this need for characters to be perfect, to always make the morally right judgment in every situation. While shows like that can be fun - I enjoyed Gaogaigar too - it doesn't allow for much drama, nor is it very true to life. People are fallible, people are illogical, and people lash out sometimes. That's what makes the moments where they do make the morally right decision actually meaningful, instead of just routine.
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Mar 24, 2015 01:58
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I thought Kamina and Simon was just a dude with a bit of an overinflated/compensatingly overinflated ego doing what he thought was tough love for Simon's advantage and not active or intentional abuse or misuse of trust. But it's been a while since i've seen GL and I didn't super love it so I ain't wanted it again.
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Mar 24, 2015 02:01
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Simon and Kamina have pretty massive mutual admiration, even if Simon isn't aware of it. Any poo poo Kamina gives Simon is because he knows that Simon isn't a coward, and when it comes down to it he'll listen to Simon over his own desires, like in the first fight against the walking fortress. Plus any physical stuff shouldn't be taken completely seriously since TTGL is a goofy, exaggerated kids show.
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Mar 24, 2015 02:02
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NecroMonster posted:I thought Kamina and Simon was just a dude with a bit of an overinflated/compensatingly overinflated ego doing what he thought was tough love for Simon's advantage and not active or intentional abuse or misuse of trust.
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Mar 24, 2015 02:03
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so less a huge ego and more pretending at it as a form of compensation?
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Mar 24, 2015 02:04
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Motto posted:Simon and Kamina have pretty massive mutual admiration, even if Simon isn't aware of it. Any poo poo Kamina gives Simon is because he knows that Simon isn't a coward, and when it comes down to it he'll listen to Simon over his own desires, like in the first fight against the walking fortress. Plus any physical stuff shouldn't be taken completely seriously since TTGL is goofy, and exaggerated and King Gainer isn't? We just had a robot use bellows that shoot fire this episode.
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Mar 24, 2015 02:08
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NecroMonster posted:so less a huge ego and more pretending at it as a form of compensation?
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Mar 24, 2015 02:08
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Sure, but in TTGL's case even the physical properties of stuff will get exaggerated at random for the sake of a joke or looking cool, like that one scene where Kamina's katana is suddenly 2-3 times longer all of a sudden.
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Mar 24, 2015 02:10
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