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Clawshrimpy posted:and King Gainer isn't? We just had a robot use bellows that shoot fire this episode. He's speaking stylistically, not in terms of content. The way Looney Tunes is animated is not always purely literal, whereas the animation in, say, Gundam is. That change in style makes the reality the characters live in slightly more malleable, and therefore creates a contrast in what you see, what actually is happening, and what its effects actually are. The gut punch Gain gives Gainer is visceral and not too "cartoony" so it feels heavy, hard, and painful. You can understand how it would knock Gainer down and KO him. Compare that to the way TTGL animates, and the actions have less of that weight and realism to them, so their effects diminish or are even nonexistent at times and are simply visual representations of intention rather than an actual action taken. Do you see what I am trying to say Clawshrimpy?
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Mar 24, 2015 02:12
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There's also the simple fact that the physical violence was normally played for comedy in TTGL, while Gainer's situation wasn't and is meant to be taken at face value as a piece of drama driving the story. It's like getting mad at the violence in Tom & Jerry and then saying it's no different to the violence in Avatar or something.
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Mar 24, 2015 02:12
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So is this an early indicator that GL would be better off added to the "don't mention it" list with GGG?
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Mar 24, 2015 02:14
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Paper Lion posted:He's speaking stylistically, not in terms of content. The way Looney Tunes is animated is not always purely literal, whereas the animation in, say, Gundam is. That change in style makes the reality the characters live in slightly more malleable, and therefore creates a contrast in what you see, what actually is happening, and what its effects actually are. The gut punch Gain gives Gainer is visceral and not too "cartoony" so it feels heavy, hard, and painful. You can understand how it would knock Gainer down and KO him. Compare that to the way TTGL animates, and the actions have less of that weight and realism to them, so their effects diminish or are even nonexistent at times and are simply visual representations of intention rather than an actual action taken. Except the punch Kamina does to Simon is completely unprovoked, where Gain was just defending himself from Gainer attacking him over not being straightforward.
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Mar 24, 2015 02:14
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While I'd agree somewhat dogsicle, I'd also rule that it's a fair observation for him to have made, since the relationships between Gain/Gainer and Kamina/Simon are similar enough to be compared and contrasted in some ways. I think it would be a good idea for us not to harp too hard on the topic, but it does deserve the occasional reference.
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Mar 24, 2015 02:15
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dogsicle posted:So is this an early indicator that GL would be better off added to the "don't mention it" list with GGG? .....gently caress try so hard to not break rule 2 and fall into a completely different trap.
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Mar 24, 2015 02:16
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Clawshrimpy posted:Except the punch Kamina does to Simon is completely unprovoked, where Gain was just defending himself from Gainer attacking him over not being straightforward. Kamina had noticed that Simon was unable to concentrate on the battlefield, and therefore unable to operate the Lagann. He took a drastic measure to snap him back to reality and out of his head (people do punch/slap others to do this and it is A Thing That Is Societally Acceptable). Simon not being snapped back to reality left him open to his own death, as well as potentially leading to the deaths of his friends. Kamina also essentially gives his own life to pass on his message to Simon and get him to lead the Gurren-Dan where he no longer could. It's a sacrifice. EDIT: It's alright that you rbought it up, but if you are going to firmly dig your heels in over the topic rather than listen then it's likely a good idea to only speak of it sparingly and when appropriate. This was a fine time to bring it up, but it should hopefully not happen too often. Don't worry about it though 
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Mar 24, 2015 02:18
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It was a fair comparison its just that comparison leads to discussion and discussion about GL (just like GGG) goes nowhere.
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Mar 24, 2015 02:18
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Clawshrimpy posted:Except the punch Kamina does to Simon is completely unprovoked, where Gain was just defending himself from Gainer attacking him over not being straightforward. Getting someone to focus on the task at hand when its everyones lives and the freedom of humanity on the line isn't really unprovoked though?
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Mar 24, 2015 02:20
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Clawshrimpy posted:I guess you're right. Sorry for bringing it up, if it isn't already too late. I didn't bring it up because you made the initial comparison, it was more because discussion turned into TTGL. It's obviously a loaded topic for you, and I feel like that isn't super helpful to bring up in this thread.
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Mar 24, 2015 02:21
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Artum posted:Getting someone to focus on the task at hand when its everyones lives and the freedom of humanity on the line isn't really unprovoked though? It's more unprovoked than just defending yourself from someone overreacting to being lied to.
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Mar 24, 2015 02:29
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'Unprovoked' is not the same as 'without reason'.
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Mar 24, 2015 02:31
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Motto posted:Sure, but in TTGL's case even the physical properties of stuff will get exaggerated at random for the sake of a joke or looking cool, like that one scene where Kamina's katana is suddenly 2-3 times longer all of a sudden. Cool thing to note, but only two or three scenes in the show are from Kamina's point of view, and one of them is a scene where suddenly the sword-does this represent his dick? (YES) - is suddenly impossibly long and guns - coded for Kamina as feminine - are comically worthless and tiny. Scenes are often exaggerated, but always by someone. The whole deal of TTGL is that reality itself twists to the will of how people want it to be, be it for humor or plot. Good show best show.
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Mar 24, 2015 02:35
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Clawshrimpy posted:It's more unprovoked than just defending yourself from someone overreacting to being lied to. Do you think there is never grounds for confrontation or violence, ever, out of interest? You certainly seem to believe so, at least between friends.
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Mar 24, 2015 02:35
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Look let's get back on track here. My whole point is that it felt really unnatural for Gainer to react that way just because Gain's a little aloof and doesn't tell the truth sometimes or at least conceals the truth just to avoid problems down the road. Some things are just better left unsaid, and unfortunately the squad leader let something slip. Clawshrimpy fucked around with this message at 02:41 on Mar 24, 2015 |
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Mar 24, 2015 02:39
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That isn't why he does it though. Or at least, it's not solely why he does it. That's just the straw that broke the camel's back as it were. The fact that Gain has caused Gainer's life to get completely screwed up and doesn't seem to care, that his worldview has been entirely upset, that his friends appear to be in on this and that his future is not only uncertain but in the hands of bandits and will be a lot less comfortable than he is used to are all much bigger causes at the end of the day.
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Mar 24, 2015 02:41
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tsob posted:That isn't why he does it though. Or at least, it's not solely why he does it. That's just the straw that broke the camel's back as it were. The fact that Gain has caused Gainer's life to get completely screwed up and doesn't seem to care, that his worldview has been entirely upset, that his friends appear to be in on this and that his future is not only uncertain but in the hands of bandits and will be a lot less comfortable than he is used to are all much bigger causes at the end of the day. The fact the two of them have similar names was not either of their fault, it's more the fault of the Siberian Railway for loving arresting people for very flimsy justifications.
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Mar 24, 2015 02:44
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You may or may not empathize more with Gainer once you know a little more about his reasons for hating the Exodus. Even not knowing his reasons, I personally thought the scene was believable, but that's largely a matter of opinion.
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Mar 24, 2015 02:47
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Clawshrimpy posted:The fact the two of them have similar names was not either of their fault, it's more the fault of the Siberian Railway for loving arresting people for very flimsy justifications. It's not, but Gain was still more than willing to take advantage of it regardless. And again, Gainer is upset at more than just Gain - Gain is just a focus because he's the one that's been the face of all this to Gainer. Gainer is, as above, upset at the betrayal of his own government towards him, the fact that his life is no longer certain and that he may end up living in poo poo for the indefinite future and so on. He just lashes out at Gain because Gain is pretty callous about the whole thing and is as close as he can see to a person to blame for all this. Is he right? Not really, but that doesn't mean it isn't understandable that he would see him as the one at fault in his emotionally turbulent frame of mind.
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Mar 24, 2015 02:49
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glomkettle posted:You may or may not empathize more with Gainer once you know a little more about his reasons for hating the Exodus. Even not knowing his reasons, I personally thought the scene was believable, but that's largely a matter of opinion. I just find it confusing because after Gain and Gainer break out of Prison in episode 1, Gain actually asks him if he wants in Exodus, and rather than show any reluctance, he says yes.
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Mar 24, 2015 03:00
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He stuttered out a "yes" just before they took off on a motorcycle, which i consider a type of reluctance but i do see your point about how that would be confusing.
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Mar 24, 2015 03:07
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Clever Spambot posted:He stuttered out a "yes" just before they took off on a motorcycle, which i consider a type of reluctance but i do see your point about how that would be confusing. That's sounds more like his usual nerdy awkwardness more than "I really don't want to join people like them."
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Mar 24, 2015 03:09
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I interpreted it more as the whole he is running through the whole first episode on adrenaline thing, with all the crazy poo poo that just happened he probably didn't really register or understand the question. Also I didnt really notice him being stuttery or awkward in many other scenes.
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Mar 24, 2015 03:15
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It's ok to interpret it however you want, it's just that if new information comes to light you'll need to reevaluate your interpretation.
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Mar 24, 2015 03:19
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Clever Spambot posted:I interpreted it more as the whole he is running through the whole first episode on adrenaline thing, with all the crazy poo poo that just happened he probably didn't really register or understand the question. Also I didnt really notice him being stuttery or awkward in many other scenes.
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Mar 24, 2015 03:22
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Yeah, I think that though I don't entirely agree with shrimpy, I see where he is coming from and as long as he can genuinely see where we are also coming from (and isn't just gonna say he does to try to please us or whatever) and is willing to re-evaluate his stances when we get new information, then that's all anyone can really ask for. Remember, he doesn't even have to end up liking the show, as long as he comes to a conclusion rationally and by correctly reading and understanding the show, and as long as we can all share our ideas and enjoy things together 
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Mar 24, 2015 03:22
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Also i am really bad at interpreting shows before having seen all of it so i dont really know dick.
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Mar 24, 2015 03:25
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I just went ahead and watched the 3rd episode rather than let this one episode dwell on me. Overman King Gainer Episode 3 I think this is a much better episode than the last one, but parts of it still make me kinda un-nerved. Rather than keep Gainer on the same angry path he was on last episode, he's much more subtle for his disapproval of Exodus in this one, which is how I felt he should've reacted in the first place. By that I mean instead of be incredibly rude to everyone he's living with now, the most he's doing is skipping school and insisting to Sara that he has a reason for not going to school (because they actually managed to pack the school into the convoy on the Exodus somehow.) ANd I feel that Gainer has more meaningful discussions than what was presented last time, particularly with Sara. The reveal obviously being that both of Gainer's parents were killed with Anti-Exodus flyers in their hands, implying they were killed by Exodus members. And the only reason he's helping and fighting now, like he does against Jin's Rush Rod, is because he wants to save lives, even if they are a group he dislikes. But I think more importantly, we're demonstrated just how amoral the Exodus really is, as Gain reveals they'll let sick people die if they slow them down due to lack of medicine or if people get too sick, to use medicine for "mercy killings". On one hand I do really like this episode for presenting Gainer in a much better light, but on the other hand, it's still kinda hard to root for the heroes when some of them support poo poo like this. Particularly, as an autistic person, I actually find this to be kind of offensive, if only because of the real life cases of parents and caregivers "mercy killing" their autistic children and all that kinda poo poo. So now, the sides have flipped, Gainer and Sara have become the likable ones, and Exodus and Gain have suddenly jumped up quite a bit on the unlikability scale for me, if only for hitting a potential trigger of mine. Sure the SIberian Railway are trying to control and tax people and are evil, but at least they're not advocating for mercy killing the sick slowing them down. SO now the show's entered this kind of dark place where both sides are actually really evil in different ways, and the only ones is Gainer and possibly Sara and maybe the princess walking away with any goodness in them. But even Sara and the Princess spend a lot of time in the pro-Exodus camp, but at least Sara came around to Gainer's way of thinking a little. And now, other than Gainer and a few other standing outside of it, the two sides have entered that black on black morality I often describe early Gundam as.  The battle was quite interesting with the reveal of Rush Rod's OverSkill, the ability to stop time with a rainbow beam. Which leads to Jin doing some pretty interesting stuff like stopping time in the snow to trap King Gainer in the avalanche, or to un-freeze time to use the Exodus squad's own bullets against King Gainer. And at the end, King Gainer stops time, revealing the development of it's own Over Skill, which was pretty neat. Oh and the one lady from the Siberian Railway gets aboard the Exodus place and tries to take the Princess, but Gain stops her in a scene that, in addition to that poo poo about mercy killing the sick, really makes me more uncomfortable with Gain since he pins her to a bed and when she tells him to kill her he insists it's better for her to father his children instead, which any way I look at it, feels like "rape humor" to me, which really isn't helped by the fact he has her pinned on a bed with her gun to her head. Granted Adette gets away from that, but I won't lie when I say that I kinda feel like poo poo for liking Gain early on! Clawshrimpy fucked around with this message at 05:04 on Mar 24, 2015 |
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Mar 24, 2015 04:42
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Adette is cool.
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Mar 24, 2015 06:10
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I actually like that instead of being the definitive good guys the Exodus is portrayed in a more realistic fashion for what it is they are actually doing. They've forcibly disrupted the lives of a bunch of people and are taking everything with them on a dangerous journey to find a promised land that nobody really knows exists. It's an incredibly reckless plan that they broke a lot of eggs to get going.
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Mar 24, 2015 06:14
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Clawshrimpy posted:I kinda feel like poo poo for liking Gain early on! This is pretty much what I expect to happen when I read that earlier post. Personally, I don't see how anyone sides with anyone who had a part in the kidnapping of this poor girl:  
John Carstairs fucked around with this message at 06:35 on Mar 24, 2015 |
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Mar 24, 2015 06:32
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Steam posted:Best of luck with this Shrimpy. I've gotten to be able to see you grow up over the years from your posts on /m/ and whatnot. I know sometimes I've said stuff you haven't liked (like when I trolled your twitter feed a little while) but this is a good group of people who want to help you feel better about anime and life in general. And personally, although sometimes what you say can make me mad or disappointed, you're not a bad person. The fact you're willing to at least *try* to do this is something you should find strength and pride in, because not everyone in your shoes would be able to. Lol.
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Mar 24, 2015 06:44
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any sort of "sides" people take or groups they belong to are less important than the people themselves is a pretty central theme of tomino's works. Besides morality tends to break down once you start trying to apply it to large groups
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Mar 24, 2015 07:17
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I really want to know how you view "Black and Black" as a way to describe a conflict. The reason people use the color grey is that the often good intentions are carried out through not so pleasant means and conversely it is possible to be a nice guy with evil intentions. Black and white mixing is what creates the grey area. Because every instance you use it is because the "other" side you keep mentioning usually has a "bad" person on it, regardless of the intent of the whole group in question. It's really not something you're supposed to pin on a single character.
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Mar 24, 2015 07:40
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NecroMonster posted:so less a huge ego and more pretending at it as a form of compensation? It's neither, he's not compensating and he's not got a huge ego either. There's a good flashback scene in TTGL where Simon and Kamina get trapped underground when rocks collapse around them. Kamina is poo poo-scared but he sees that Simon is willing to keep digging patiently, so he decides to start encouraging him and eventually they escape alive. That's basically what their relationship is all about. Kamina knows Simon is the one with the true power and potential and that the only thing holding him back is lacking the confidence to fully realise his potential. So Kamina does whatever he can to give Simon confidence and inspiration and help him become the man he knows he can be.
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Mar 24, 2015 07:40
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Yosuke posted:I really want to know how you view "Black and Black" as a way to describe a conflict. The reason people use the color grey is that the often good intentions are carried out through not so pleasant means and conversely it is possible to be a nice guy with evil intentions. Black and white mixing is what creates the grey area. I'm interested too, because "black and black" is really just reserved for conflicts where you can't really find yourself wanting either side to win or any redeeming qualities in them. For reference I usually use something like Chaos vs. the Necrons from Warhammer 40K (at least before the Necrons were changed around to be more like the Tomb Kings, now I'm not up-to-date on their lore) or Griffith's forces vs. Ganeshika in Berserk. That's why I was actually surprised by how, well, sympathetic many factions in A Song of Ice and Fire turned out to be, but then again go blame TVtropes for that.
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Mar 24, 2015 08:18
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Clawshrimpy posted:the two sides have entered that black on black morality I often describe early Gundam as. I appreciate that you're trying with these reviews but I really hope that you learn what black and black actually means because this is not it.
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Mar 24, 2015 09:58
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I think Clawshrimpy uses "black on black" to mean "I personally don't sympathize with either side" As opposed to what it actually means, which would be "absolutely no one except crazy people would sympathize with either side"
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Mar 24, 2015 10:52
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ninjewtsu posted:As opposed to what it actually means, which would be "absolutely no one except crazy people would sympathize with either side" I think you need to entertain the very real possibility that Clawshrimpy genuinely believes this to be true of shows like Gundam and even King Gainer, regardless of the fact there's genuine good in each of those sides goals, methods and personnel and that there are no other factions to pick in most cases.
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Mar 24, 2015 10:58
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Even if the side have entered black and black morality and black and black morality made any loving sense at all, the "sides" don't matter at loving all. it's not about team A vs team B, it's not about "good" guys vs "bad" guys. PIcking a side means you've pretty much already lost. Us vs Them gets no one anywhere.
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Mar 24, 2015 10:58
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