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blackguy32 posted:Define "harmful". Because some of the poo poo she has tweeted has been pretty incendiary. Ha, I had never seen any of her tweets. Yeah she's an ignorant racist yokel to be sure, and the poo poo she says is insulting. I guess I would consider them "hurtful" but not "harmful" in the sense that they make it harder for people to live. Other than just contributing to the overall culture's perception of minorities, so yeah I'll go ahead and call that harmful. I guess I was thinking mostly of her music, not her ignorant personal life or opinions. New Division posted:I've only ever seen Iggy in the video for "Fancy" which was basically a tribue to "Clueless". It'd be interesting to know the horrible things she has apparently done, because that song and video seemed utterly harmless. She raps like a "thug". All "thugged" out with the..."thug" dialect. Pardon me sir I believe you'll find that the word "thug" is a reference to the thugee cult of India, and consequently cannot be used out of such a base motive as the one you seem to be alluding to 
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Mar 25, 2015 00:22
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blackguy32 posted:Also, note how I never called it black culture. I mean Eminem while receiving many of the same criticisms has never poo poo on his audience in the way that Iggy Azalea has. Eminem, for all his faults, does reference in his songs that part of the reason he's famous is he's a white guy doing rap.
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Mar 25, 2015 00:22
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SedanChair posted:Ha, I had never seen any of her tweets. Yeah she's an ignorant racist yokel to be sure, and the poo poo she says is insulting. I guess I would consider them "hurtful" but not "harmful" in the sense that they make it harder for people to live. Other than just contributing to the overall culture's perception of minorities, so yeah I'll go ahead and call that harmful. I guess I was thinking mostly of her music, not her ignorant personal life or opinions. No, some of her music has awful lyrics too, such as the lyric that Zeitgeist just posted.
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Mar 25, 2015 00:25
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Mandy Thompson posted:Its completely subjective but it does have consequences sometimes, and we should be willing to hear out people who have a problem with their culture being appropriated, especially without much permission or credit. An example is the offensive use of Indians as mascots by white owned teams, or the use of Indians in branding. For example, the real Cherokee tribe was sued for trademark infringement by a white owned company that trademarked the name "Cherokee" for blue jeans and other clothing and lost. Crazy Horse is considered a cultural hero and its rather demeaning to see him used as a mascot to sell malt liquor, something that harms the native american community. But are all of the issues brought up here "cultural appropriation" as a unique and distinct phenomena, or is it simply a convenient heading under which a collection of complaints about people tolerating racist stereotypes when they shouldn't be, godawful IP law, and accusations that people are exhibiting really bad taste are lumped? The complaints may all be valid, but they're valid because people are behaving like insensitive assholes towards other people, not because some essential aspect of a unique culture has been meaningfully "stolen." The accusations that someone is exhibiting extremely poor taste may be correct (as with Crazy Horse malt liquor), but it's still the sort of judgement call you should receive skeptically, and most cases of "cultural appropriation" brought up in this thread are nowhere near as clear cut as these. I just don't think "cultural appropriation" is a particularly useful concept. Reprehensible behaviors that falls under the heading are still obviously reprehensible without making reference to it, while its use in other circumstances is mostly as a rhetorical bludgeon to enforce (or move) "good" taste (while encouraging cultural essentialism). While good taste is something I try to cultivate myself, it's also not something anyone should be taking too seriously, and attempting to conflate enforcement of such judgments with genuine efforts towards fostering social justice is pretty laughable. I just really like Graceland ok? LGD fucked around with this message at 00:31 on Mar 25, 2015 |
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Mar 25, 2015 00:29
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Zeitgueist posted:
Ahaha oh boy I wonder what her explanation was for that. Or does she bother?
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Mar 25, 2015 00:29
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SedanChair posted:Ahaha oh boy I wonder what her explanation was for that. Or does she bother? She was referencing a Kendrick Lamarr lyric, and botched it. Sorry white lady people will be offended if you refer to yourself as a slavemaster. quote:“Dear world,
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Mar 25, 2015 00:31
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Popular Thug Drink posted:She was referencing a Kendrick Lamarr lyric, and botched it. Sorry white lady people will be offended if you refer to yourself as a slavemaster. Yeah I don't necessarily buy it either, given what a shitlord she's been elsewhere in the media. I think it was a calculated risk to cause controversy. There's no way people recorded that and not be like "uuuuhhhh Iggy....."
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Mar 25, 2015 00:34
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She also went for the "I am sorry if you were offended" apology.
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Mar 25, 2015 00:37
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRtN8NxGVms
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Mar 25, 2015 00:41
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quote:This is a metaphoric take on an originally literal lyric She doesn't even understand the Kendrick Lamar lyric 
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Mar 25, 2015 00:48
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blackguy32 posted:Yes, a white girl from Australia who is even clueless about the racism in her home country and how it relates to Aboriginal housing, comes to the United States, adopts rap music as her platform, then proceeds to poo poo on minorities using a myriad of stereotypes while making money off a "hood" persona. I'm absolutely not defending Azalea, I don't really know enough to critique specific examples of hers, I'll agree with whatever position you have on her. But accusing her of "hood culture" appropriation seems a bit hypocritical especially considering the justified backlash against people criticizing "hood," "black", or "ghetto" culture right?
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Mar 25, 2015 00:49
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Powercrazy posted:I'm absolutely not defending Azalea, I don't really know enough to critique specific examples of hers, I'll agree with whatever position you have on her. But accusing her of "hood culture" appropriation seems a bit hypocritical especially considering the justified backlash against people criticizing "hood," "black", or "ghetto" culture right? He's accusing her of a racist, inaccurate, and most importantly appropriated take on stereotypically "hood" culture.
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Mar 25, 2015 00:51
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Powercrazy posted:I'm absolutely not defending Azalea, I don't really know enough to critique specific examples of hers, I'll agree with whatever position you have on her. But accusing her of "hood culture" appropriation seems a bit hypocritical especially considering the justified backlash against people criticizing "hood," "black", or "ghetto" culture right? It's possible for people to mimic a false stereotype so long as it has cultural relevance. You can also dress like Santa Claus incorrectly.
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Mar 25, 2015 00:52
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Seems to me that the best way to stop cultural appropriation by Whites is White Pride World Wide. Have White people reject non-White cultures and learn to love their own White culture will stop cultural appropriation.
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Mar 25, 2015 01:07
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Lowtechs posted:Seems to me that the best way to stop cultural appropriation by Whites is White Pride World Wide. Have White people reject non-White cultures and learn to love their own White culture will stop cultural appropriation. Much like the best way to stop institutionalized racism is to murder all minorities.
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Mar 25, 2015 01:20
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blackguy32 posted:Much like the best way to stop institutionalized racism is to murder all minorities. Nah you just have to deport them stop being such an extremist.
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Mar 25, 2015 01:22
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Popular Thug Drink posted:It's possible for people to mimic a false stereotype so long as it has cultural relevance. You can also dress like Santa Claus incorrectly. Sure, I've had a girlfriend who has dressed as slutty santa-clause which is absolutely a cultural appropriation of Santa Clause, but so? It doesn't affect poo poo. You can criticize rape culture, or whatever, but cultural appropriation seems like a distraction to excuse you slut-shaming.
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Mar 25, 2015 01:23
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One thing I've noticed about cultural appropriation discussion is that it makes white people on the whole fairly antsy and they start doing the slippery slope thing. I'm guessing it's that thing where if you talk about racism at all, whites get uncomfortable because they realize they've probably done it and might feel bad.
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Mar 25, 2015 01:35
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Powercrazy posted:Sure, I've had a girlfriend who has dressed as slutty santa-clause which is absolutely a cultural appropriation of Santa Clause, but so? Im not sure you understand, and suspect you may simply be looking for an excuse to whine.
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Mar 25, 2015 01:37
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Powercrazy posted:Sure, I've had a girlfriend who has dressed as slutty santa-clause which is absolutely a cultural appropriation of Santa Clause, but so? It doesn't affect poo poo. You can criticize rape culture, or whatever, but cultural appropriation seems like a distraction to excuse you slut-shaming. "It is only a problem when I think it is a problem." I mean technically the n-word isn't harmful so I guess people shouldn't get upset when people use it. Zeitgueist posted:One thing I've noticed about cultural appropriation discussion is that it makes white people on the whole fairly antsy and they start doing the slippery slope thing. I know some people lose their poo poo when they aren't allowed to do some things that others can. Like one of the guys on CNN saying that no one should be able to say the N-word since White people can't use it. Im guessing he would go insane if he had to go through all the stuff that black people can't do in society that white people can easily get away with. http://www.theroot.com/blogs/the_grapevine/2015/03/trinidad_james_debates_the_n_word_on_cnn.html
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Mar 25, 2015 01:46
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Mar 25, 2015 01:48
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Most Native American cultures in the USA are in pretty precarious positions and mass media depictions do have a lot of influence on them. Clearly, these labor aristocrats should have their cultures annihilated rather than white people not talk about spirit animals or wear buckskin or go "how".
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Mar 25, 2015 01:59
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Lowtechs posted:Seems to me that the best way to stop cultural appropriation by Whites is White Pride World Wide. Have White people reject non-White cultures and learn to love their own White culture will stop cultural appropriation. Now that's just stupid. No one is saying, "never consume culture outside you own"
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Mar 25, 2015 02:04
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Mandy Thompson posted:Now that's just stupid. No one is saying, "never consume culture outside you own"  But seriously how can you stop white cultural appropriation without resorting to white powerism? Lowtechs fucked around with this message at 02:43 on Mar 25, 2015 |
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Mar 25, 2015 02:06
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Cultural appropriation is a thing, despite how use of the term is often greeted with people rolling their eyes and mumbling "tumblr". I'm usually not going out of my way to look for examples, but the whole Urban Outfitters thing was an explicit example that involved trademarks and intellectual property. That's well beyond the burden of proof. I don't disagree that Miley Cyrus's twerk stunt was a cynical use of it too, because Miley explicitly said she was trying to "blacken up" her act as if that's some sort of shortcut for people to act like she's a mature artist now. Other artists emulating hip hop, while neutering or outright eliminating its political teeth; that's appropriation and whitewashing. Tribal tattoos just because they look exotic? Yep, that's another. I thought that Katy Perry act was racist not for "appropriating" but because it was a yellowface performance without the yellowface. Personally, I'm looking for that proof of cynicism, even though it's commonly happening even without the blatant red flags. I didn't consider the Harlem Shake meme an example, because it seemed like a grassroots phenomenon. (I have a hard time imagining a bunch of executives pointing to a pie chart in a meeting saying "let's do this!" until after it took off.) It's kind of hard to just point out a trend before you get a kneejerk response from reactionaries claiming you're on some moral crusade or "being Tumblr" or something.
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Mar 25, 2015 02:08
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I do have a bit of trouble grasping a couple of things that seem fairly integral to the discussion of cultural appropriation. Firstly, I don't understand the concept of cultural ownership. As in, I don't understand how people can feel as though they have possession or creative control over a culture. To me it is like a monarch butterfly claiming ownership of the shape of its swarm. Culture isn't a thing we own or control, it is the sum, almost gestalt presence of our shared ideas and experiences, but it isn't a thing in and of itself, that one can point to and claim ownership of, because everything you do changes it. It's like the numbers in an equation getting protective of the solution, it's an expression of its component members, not an independent entity. Following on from that, I don't understand the feeling that culture must be preserved, because preserving it is antithetical to its nature. Even by deciding to preserve it, you change it, because you create a cultural shift towards conservatism/preservation. The only culture which can be preserved is arguably tautological conservatism, which is to say a culture built around preserving itself. So the argument must surely be instead, not against the modification of cultures, but the modification of cultures by people you don't like, in some way or another. Which then brings me to the problem that occurs when people do object to the modification of their culture by people they perceive as not part of it: How do you get to decide that? Certainly on an individual level I can understand and entirely support people objecting to the behavior of others for more or less any reason. If you don't like someone doing something that's entirely your prerogative, but I would have difficulty jumping from that to the idea of an appeal to a higher power, some external, omnipresent Culture which is more important than any person, and which needs to be preserved, and which therefore needs the object of your ire excluding from it. I dunno, it feels weirdly religious or something, like Culture is some kind of weird god and you get to be its prophet or something. Again the possessiveness throughout the whole idea and its strangely segregationist overtones just... make it really difficult for me to understand. It seems like it has all the same problems of people complaining about immigrants not respecting their culture by not speaking English all the time, or people throwing a shitfit about spelling or new words because they are the prophets of the One True Language and everything else since then is stupid. You don't get to decide on culture for everyone, culture is the sum of its parts, and we are increasingly less separated from each other so, yeah, cultures are going to change because of that. All of them. It works on a personal level, I can entirely understand people not liking the way other people treat things which are important to them, but when it draws in the appeals to authority and stuff I just lose the thread a bit. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 02:17 on Mar 25, 2015 |
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Mar 25, 2015 02:14
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Popular Thug Drink posted:Im not sure you understand, and suspect you may simply be looking for an excuse to whine. I don't think I'm the one whining about a concept that I'm not even convinced exists. If anything, the people upset that I listen to eminem and have had a black girlfriend in the past are looking for something else to whine about.
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Mar 25, 2015 02:36
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Powercrazy posted:I don't think I'm the one whining about a concept that I'm not even convinced exists. 
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Mar 25, 2015 02:48
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Mar 25, 2015 03:08
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Zeitgueist posted:Nah making money off of culture that's not yours is pretty much specifically appropriation, especially if there's a racial oppressor/oppressed dynamic. Think white holding down minorities and then stealing their music and making money on stuff they wouldn't the folks who invented it do. Wow, I never knew those undocumented Guatemalans working the kitchen over at the local Chinese take-out place were cultural appropriators. Gonna put on my black bandana, fill up a couple molotov cocktails, and go let those Enemies of the People know how "problematic" their cultural appropriation is. On that topic, is it cultural appropriation when Korean pop culture appropriates elements of Japanese culture? Or when Japan appropriates Chinese cultural markers? When SedanChair posted:She doesn't even understand the Kendrick Lamar lyric It's like she's deceptively appropriating an African-American identity because she thinks it makes her content seem more "authentic" and less like just another boring white rear end in a top hat who nobody would pay attention to otherwise. The Insect Court fucked around with this message at 03:12 on Mar 25, 2015 |
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Mar 25, 2015 03:10
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OwlFancier posted:I do have a bit of trouble grasping a couple of things that seem fairly integral to the discussion of cultural appropriation. I dunno, I think it is weird when people where Indian headdresses to a party as a statement of fashion when a headdress was used in a specific context and environment. Yes, cultures change over time, but they don't just change because they want to change. They change for very specific reasons and in a specific context. It gets back to an earlier statement I made where it seems that certain people feel that they should be entitled to everything when other don't get that liberty. But it's kind of funny to me that people get pissy about being called out on this poo poo. No one is stopping you from dressing in a Native American headdress, but you can expect to be called out on that poo poo. But the way people react, one would think that it was prohibited or illegal or something.
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Mar 25, 2015 03:10
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Powercrazy posted:I don't think I'm the one whining about a concept that I'm not even convinced exists. If anything, the people upset that I listen to eminem and have had a black girlfriend in the past are looking for something else to whine about. Oh, you were my freshman roommate? Small fuckin' world.
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Mar 25, 2015 03:12
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The Insect Court posted:Wow, I never knew those undocumented Guatemalans working the kitchen over at the local Chinese take-out place were cultural appropriators. lol, owned
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Mar 25, 2015 03:12
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The Insect Court posted:Wow, I never knew those undocumented Guatemalans working the kitchen over at the local Chinese take-out place were cultural appropriators. Gonna put on my black bandana, fill up a couple molotov cocktails, and go let those Enemies of the People know how "problematic" their cultural appropriation is. drat, you sure got me there dude.
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Mar 25, 2015 03:22
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Effectronica posted:Oh, you were my freshman roommate? Small fuckin' world. I'm pretty sure I wasn't your freshman roommate unless you were a frat-boy "appropriator" with an asian girl-friend. Perhaps it says something that my experience isn't all that unusual and that you are probably "incorrect" to assume there is something wrong with something that no one else seems to have a problem with.
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Mar 25, 2015 03:34
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Powercrazy posted:I'm pretty sure I wasn't your freshman roommate unless you were a frat-boy "appropriator" with an asian girl-friend. Perhaps it says something that my experience isn't all that unusual and that you are probably "incorrect" to assume there is something wrong with something that no one else seems to have a problem with. Man you sure are angry for someone who's not even sure if he believes in or cares about the thread topic.
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Mar 25, 2015 03:40
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Cultural appropriation is not real.
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Mar 25, 2015 03:40
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rakovsky maybe posted:Cultural appropriation is not real. - White people, everywhere
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Mar 25, 2015 03:40
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Powercrazy posted:I'm pretty sure I wasn't your freshman roommate unless you were a frat-boy "appropriator" with an asian girl-friend. Perhaps it says something that my experience isn't all that unusual and that you are probably "incorrect" to assume there is something wrong with something that no one else seems to have a problem with. What are you on about now? Are you going to start blubbering about how a mean chick with dyed hair told you not to have sex with black women? Because, ah-ha, E/N is thataway *points to dumpster*.
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Mar 25, 2015 03:50
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqsAvKqqf2g
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