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Cmdr. Shepard posted:How do we disarm a person with a knife who refuses to drop it or give it up and charges officers? It requires more thought, and a cooler head, but is definitely feasible. In the theoretical case where the officer is (actually) cornered then of course things change. (Assuming they have a firearm in hand - unless something has changed I believe that the standing advice is "dont try to draw against a combatant that rushes you within xx feet - the fact that this is (was?) the rule means that there is already an awareness that non-firearm means of defense must exist for an individual officer to feel comfortable/trained 'on the street'.) Part of this requires a shift in mindset from "Us vs 'the civilians'", and towards the mindset of "we have this job to help people, including the troubled people". Changing the current generations mindset is probably the largest hurdle to all of these problems. In a related (but separate) note - the fact that this is true: http://time.com/3637967/police-officers-fattest-profession-study/ shows that the current generation(s) of LEOs cant do the jobs that the public wants them to do. The go-to solution will remain "be scared and shoot" until the state of the officers changes. Fit, strong, confident people do not go through their days as scared and reactionary as obese, agitated, and sick people do.
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Apr 4, 2015 22:13
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Cmdr. Shepard posted:What are your qualifications to make such a statement? "Youre not one of us."
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Apr 4, 2015 22:14
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Edit: my phone just ate this post
Smiling Jack fucked around with this message at 22:39 on Apr 4, 2015 |
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Apr 4, 2015 22:25
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So, if a dude threatened to "gently caress me up" when I contacted him, is it robbery? He subsequently punched me in the face when I had him on the ground. the Officer took him for assault and battery + petty theft. Could the charge be elevated to robbery because he threatened me AND I WAS IN FEAR FOR MY LIFE however, he dropped the merchandise before he punched me, after he made a theat.
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Apr 4, 2015 22:28
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LeoMarr posted:So, if a dude threatened to "gently caress me up" when I contacted him, is it robbery? He subsequently punched me in the face when I him on the ground. the Officer took him for assault and battery + petty theft. Could the charge be elevated to robbery because he threatened me AND I WAS IN FEAR FOR MY LIFE Depends on how the local law is written.
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Apr 4, 2015 22:29
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Smiling Jack posted:I have participated in removing dozens of mentally ill and armed individuals for psychiatric evaluation and I've never shot any of them
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Apr 4, 2015 22:36
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FRINGE posted:Thats excellent, and not at all part of the problem issues that come up. So what's your point?
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Apr 4, 2015 22:40
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Smiling Jack posted:So what's your point? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFZIsKaIFCs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0v213GCEkc You seem to think Im ruining the thread, so Ill stop, but these things should not be happening. If you manage to restrain troubled people without gunning them down then you are an example of what the public wants.
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Apr 4, 2015 22:52
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The whole point is that cops all across America take troubled people into custody everyday without problems. You just don't hear about those.
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Apr 4, 2015 22:55
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I think this thread is destined to be a festering shithole so w/e
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Apr 4, 2015 22:56
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I too, am a somethingawful activist. Hey guys, how should I articulate me blood choking the dude who punched me? I also pushed his legs away from him to push him into my bicep further, is that a seperate elevation of force that I have to articulate? his back may or may not have bowed out because of my knees pushing his pelvis forward and my arms pulling his neck back. I call it the eric garner choke WAR CRIME GIGOLO fucked around with this message at 23:21 on Apr 4, 2015 |
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Apr 4, 2015 22:58
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Call a lawyer, sounds like you need one
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Apr 4, 2015 23:26
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Smiling Jack posted:Call a lawyer, sounds like you need one Can you be my lawyer Jack
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Apr 4, 2015 23:29
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Hey British bobbies, does the British regular police training teach how to handle firearms in any way? I know of course that it doesn't teach to use a firearm offensively, but is there anykind of instruction for disabling, unloading and securing one, if found on a scene perhaps? Or is it just left to be for Armed Officers? For example, if Bernard runs into a pistol during an arrest situation, were you taught how to properly remove magazines from it and such? I know you naturally know how to do it even without specific training for it, but I am more interested if there was official instruction into it?
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Apr 4, 2015 23:31
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Vahakyla posted:Hey British bobbies, does the British regular police training teach how to handle firearms in any way? I know of course that it doesn't teach to use a firearm offensively, but is there anykind of instruction for disabling, unloading and securing one, if found on a scene perhaps? Or is it just left to be for Armed Officers? If Bernard confiscates a pistol he's trained to crush it with his bare hands.
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Apr 4, 2015 23:38
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Apr 4, 2015 23:43
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Smiling Jack posted:I think this thread is destined to be a festering shithole so w/e It's been going pretty well so far imo.
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Apr 5, 2015 00:18
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Cmdr. Shepard posted:It's been going pretty well so far imo. So far we've had one guy ask for legal advice on choking a dude, one person who assaults patients in his care and calls us fat and our favorite leg shooter asking about guns in London
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Apr 5, 2015 00:21
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FRINGE posted:Given the ability to employ communications and teamwork, the (theoretical) lone knife wielder would be extremely susceptible to being sucker-tazed/beanbagged/tackled from another officer while they are raving/raving/whatever at the officer occupying their attention. This is (minus the tazing/beanbags) what we were forced to do at the psych facility when an agitated resident was threatening (with or without some manner of makeshift weapon in hand). In circumstances where the knife-wielder is kind enough to oblige us by standing around ranting and other officers are available then yes, that course of action is feasible. In such cases - which are not at all unheard of - frequently this is exactly what happens. However most people don't know about them because "5 officers beanbag knife-weilding lunatic and arrest him" is not exciting news while "5 officers shoot knife-weilding lunatic 5 times" is. People tend to believe that the latter is the typical police response - in reality it's the response judged more worthy of breathy "questions are being asked!" treatment on the 11:00 news. quote:In the theoretical case where the officer is (actually) cornered then of course things change. (Assuming they have a firearm in hand - unless something has changed I believe that the standing advice is "dont try to draw against a combatant that rushes you within xx feet - the fact that this is (was?) the rule means that there is already an awareness that non-firearm means of defense must exist for an individual officer to feel comfortable/trained 'on the street'.) The rule you're thinking of is the 21 foot rule and it is not "don't try to draw". It's "If the person is within 21 feet your chances of drawing and shooting them before getting stabbed are very low". The point of the rule is to get people to understand the real distance at which knives are dangerous. If you are rushed by a person within 21 feet with a knife, you are most likely going to get cut or stabbed. Unless you are very very good at martial-arts counter-knife techniques, you definitely raw and shoot because getting stabbed once or twice is better than over and over again. As for "non-firearm defense existing" obviously it does, but those are for dealing with lesser levels of force or resistance, or for when a firearm cannot be drawn. quote:Part of this requires a shift in mindset from "Us vs 'the civilians'", and towards the mindset of "we have this job to help people, including the troubled people". Changing the current generations mindset is probably the largest hurdle to all of these problems. This change is important in building relations and understanding between the community and the police, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with immediate threats to life and limb. If a polcie officer is attacked by someone, he does not need to use lesser means of defense to protect himself because the person is "troubled" or any other special category. What matters is the real threat that he faces at that moment - and whether his response is reasonable as judged from his perspective at the time, not from the comfort of the courtroom or the living room after the fact. Also, you seem to have a misconception. Helping people is not the fundamental reason police exist. The main reason for the police is to catch criminals (however we choose to define criminals). Helping people is a part of what the police do, but people who think that is "why they have this job" are fundamentally mistaken. There are all kinds of other services that exist exclusively to help people. Many of those services are inadequate or poorly run, but that is not the fault of the police. The problem arises when people summon the police and expect them to be social workers. The police are not social workers. When the police come, the are going to resolve police problems. People should not generally call the police for things that are not police problems, and when the police come and solve a police problem it is unfair to then complain that their solution wasn't appropriate for a social problem that existed alongside the law-breaking. For example, at the point the police are called to deal with a knife-wielding mental patient there have generally been plenty of opportunities to intervene long before that was necessary. When people then blame "the police" for shooting him after he charges with the knife they are really just being intellectually lazy - it's very easy to sit in one's armchair and complain about the police shooting a mentally ill person and never even think about what might or might not have been done in advance that might prevent that situation. quote:In a related (but separate) note - the fact that this is true: http://time.com/3637967/police-officers-fattest-profession-study/ shows that the current generation(s) of LEOs cant do the jobs that the public wants them to do. The go-to solution will remain "be scared and shoot" until the state of the officers changes. Fit, strong, confident people do not go through their days as scared and reactionary as obese, agitated, and sick people do. Unfortunately, police work requires a lot of habits that are very bad for you. You eat a lot of bad food because that's all there's time for or because it's 3:00 am and only one or two places are open. You HAVE TO sit in cars, in front of a computer, or waiting around in court for days on end. Few departments offer on-duty time to work out and exercise. It's very easy for citizens to tell the police "get in shape!" when you are not the one that has to do it after getting only 5 hours sleep for days on end because of your work hours - not to mention finding time to spend with your children and spouse. This is not that I disagree police officers should stay in shape - they should; you are absolutely right in that regard - but the citizenry in this country has a bad habit of forgetting that they cannot simply place additional requirements and demands on the police without paying for it in one way or another.
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Apr 5, 2015 00:23
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Kiryen posted:Stuff
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Apr 5, 2015 00:27
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FRINGE posted:I agree with the intention/direction of a lot of what you said - and the things I would disagree (or adjust/ add to) I will save for some other thread. Don't let smiling jack bully you out of the thread. Be firm in your convictions.
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Apr 5, 2015 00:30
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Cmdr. Shepard posted:Don't let smiling jack bully you out of the thread. Be firm in your convictions. I was assured of a blue wall of silence and unconditional support wtf Shep
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Apr 5, 2015 00:34
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FRINGE posted:Given the ability to employ communications and teamwork, the (theoretical) lone knife wielder would be extremely susceptible to being sucker-tazed/beanbagged/tackled from another officer while they are raving/raving/whatever at the officer occupying their attention. This is (minus the tazing/beanbags) what we were forced to do at the psych facility when an agitated resident was threatening (with or without some manner of makeshift weapon in hand). lol i would much rather go for the sure thing than what is definitely feasible
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Apr 5, 2015 00:37
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Cmdr. Shepard posted:Don't let smiling jack bully you out of the thread. Be firm in your convictions. Hey, hey hey, that was his response to me! Don't be trying to give my bullying cred to one of your cronies!
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Apr 5, 2015 00:38
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Is Kiryen a whip alt account? These are some reasonable responses to questions and I thought we were just gonna make dick jokes itt lol
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Apr 5, 2015 00:39
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I'd almost argue that theres more fit tacticop wolf hunter douche bags that are shoot happy than fat cops. i can't back this up with any sort of evidence except personal experience and facebook like pages.
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Apr 5, 2015 00:41
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No, I'm not anyone's alt. Sorry, should I be making more dick jokes? I'll try to step up my game. By the way, what happened to Whip? I took the advice to lurk and read some of the older threads in here. Where'd he go?
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Apr 5, 2015 00:41
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Kiryen posted:No, I'm not anyone's alt. Sorry, should I be making more dick jokes? I'll try to step up my game. There was talk about posting this thread in A/T and just holding hands while it drove us all off a cliff. You're good, effort posts are beyond most of us at this point but I don't mind reading rational discussion. Whip got demodded, took his ball and went home.
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Apr 5, 2015 00:48
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Kiryen posted:No, I'm not anyone's alt. Sorry, should I be making more dick jokes? I'll try to step up my game. Hes on paid administrative leave
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Apr 5, 2015 00:49
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FRINGE posted:Yes. A group of (theoretically) trained adults working together using real-time radio communications should be able to take a knife away from a single individual without using guns. heres a real life example of some cops trying to employ your method  if you dont like watching someone bleed out in a fieldhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75RTkGbiJpk they end up shooting him anyway, it just cost one of em his life 
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Apr 5, 2015 00:53
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Rad Lieutenant posted:There was talk about posting this thread in A/T and just holding hands while it drove us all off a cliff. You're good, effort posts are beyond most of us at this point but I don't mind reading rational discussion. Really? what for?
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Apr 5, 2015 01:36
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Kiryen posted:Really? what for? he cracked down too hard on the gbs and dnd invasions of our cop and drunk threads, or some other horseshit reason all these nambiepambie admins cried about
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Apr 5, 2015 01:37
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Rad Lieutenant posted:effort posts are beyond most of us at this point but I don't mind reading rational discussion. I agree with this sentiment. I try to effort post sometimes but am too easily triggered by basement sociologists trying to tell me how to safely disarm someone. This isn't directed at anyone specifically, I've lost my will to talk smack about D&D and I still welcome anyone's poast here but I'll just let Kiryen reply to keep my blood pressure down. Smiling Jack is my bro the blue wall stands strong friend.
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Apr 5, 2015 01:52
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Alastor_the_Stylish posted:Should there be training for the situation where a person does have indeed have a knife, but in addition may be some combination of the following: fifty feet away, mentally ill, a small child, an elderly person, whittling crafts with the knife, deaf and with their back turned, Sikh, pregnant, in a wheelchair, etc...? Okay. Here's a "Shoot-Don't Shoot" scenario; You get a call, man armed with unspecified edged weapon. He's with a woman but he looks like an "unsavory type" per the RP, and that person is worried for said woman. You arrive on-scene, split second decision, WHAT DO YOU DO? (scroll down, first instinct is to A.) SHOOT THE PUNK or B.)HUG HIM AND ACCEPT HIM AS A FLAWED HUMAN PERSON??? 
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Apr 5, 2015 02:08
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Cmdr. Shepard posted:I agree with this sentiment. You know, that brings something else up: quote:
Aside from the blatant straw man, there's a real issue with this mentality, nationwide, that any given person is in a person to evaluate police tactics. We have outside institutions that evaluate the police. They're called courts. Court decisions tell us what we can and cannot do. Furthermore, law is a profession for a reason. Lawyers are graduate degree holders. Law is not easy. There is a reason there's a right to an attorney and a right to remain silent - to protect all your other rights that, despite your (general "you" here) you really do NOT know and regularly demonstrate that you don't know. If lay people want to make criticisms and observations that are in accordance with the law, precedent and accepted tactical doctrine we should as law enforcement officers listen to that and take them seriously. But if some shitlord criticizes a trained engineer because it contradicts his understanding of high school physics and "a brief history of time" the engineer (and everyone else) is perfectly within reason to laugh him out of the room. The same applies to the police. When someone with no training or education in the subject starts trash-talking about how the police should do things, it's pretty loving intellectually dishonest when they start acting like the cops are just engaging in elitism to point out that they know nothing about the subject. It does not follow that just because people have strong feelings on police work that their opinion on how it is done is necessarily relevant. People feel pretty strongly about having cancer too; having it does not mean you get to tell oncologists what to do.
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Apr 5, 2015 02:10
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the thing the basement sociologists ignore is that the kind of changes and improvements they want cost a lot of money and lives on the way, and its pretty much always the part they don't address
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Apr 5, 2015 02:11
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FRINGE posted:Taking your collection of anecdotes as true - that shows that it is possible to detain people without things like this happening: What percentage of arrests do you think end with people being shot?
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Apr 5, 2015 03:20
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If society wants me to train more, have the next level degree, work out more, community police more, and do all that other stuff your going to have to pay for it. Training time isn't cheap, colleges are expensive, the gym equipment at my station sucks, and walking a neighborhood foot beat consistently doesn't work when you have five calls holding and supervisors throwing fits over the response time. So if you increase our budget a ton, and hire at least double the cops we have now so we can do all this and still cover calls, I'd be grateful. Until then, welp.
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Apr 5, 2015 03:34
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Untagged posted:If society wants me to train more, have the next level degree, work out more, community police more, and do all that other stuff your going to have to pay for it. Training time isn't cheap, colleges are expensive, the gym equipment at my station sucks, and walking a neighborhood foot beat consistently doesn't work when you have five calls holding and supervisors throwing fits over the response time. So if you increase our budget a ton, and hire at least double the cops we have now so we can do all this and still cover calls, I'd be grateful. Until then, welp. Would doubling personnel cut into my OT 
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Apr 5, 2015 03:36
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Rad Lieutenant posted:Would doubling personnel cut into my OT Not if you double shift minimums as well!
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Apr 5, 2015 03:37
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