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This testament to ill-advised middle of the night D&D posting is brought to you by Twitter. Specifically, seeing one tweet too many in the wake of Rolling Stone's failure cascade along the lines of, "And now there'll be all the MEN saying that rape accusations are as bad as rape.   "Well I've been raped. I'm one of the thirtysomething percent of rape survivors who lucked out and drew a family member that I couldn't really get away from as my rapist, so I've been raped kind of a lot over a number of years. I'm not going to touch on any gory details because OMG TRIGGER WARNING and all that, but my rapist is safely behind bars and I walked away from my childhood with a fantastic case of PTSD and a lifetime without any intimate relationships because being touched by someone is about as comfortable for me as centipedes crawling down my spine. And I'd go through it again in a heartbeat rather than be convicted of raping someone. I don't even have to take a minute to think it over, wheel that pinball machine on over while I get my pants off, let's do this.  I will accept a night of pain, degradation and horror, and a lifetime of never being quite right, and consider myself fortunate compared to the person who endures months or years of torment and the possibility of a lifetime of persecution in the legal system with no way to prove their innocence. Both through incarceration and the very ironic possibility of themselves being raped or worse, and through a free lifetime membership to the violent sex offender registry, where if you're lucky you don't live in a state that will force you to be homeless and live under a bridge. Yeah, I've got a lifetime of baggage, but at least there's no government mandate rubbing my face in it on a daily basis, and I'm not having to fear for having my freedom taken from me and being put in a place where my being raped is considered funny by some people and justice by others. For full disclosure I should probably make clear that I have never been accused of rape, so the same people who say that the men who have been accused of rape could not possibly speak about how bad it is in relationship to being raped because they haven't been raped may feel free to say that I can not speak about how bad rape is in relationship to being accused of rape because I have not been accused of rape. I will admit to not having first-hand experience in having to defend myself from rape allegations or being on the sex offender registry or being put in prison, so my perception of how bad it is may be in error. To those people who will not accept a comparison from anyone but a rape survivor who has also been falsely accused of rape, I imagine that one or two must exist somewhere out there, but I've never heard of one, so good luck finding them. (I had a lot more written, with lots of links to stories of people who were accused of rape on social media and received a witch hunt in the total absence of evidence, and stories of people who wound up in prison for decades after the cops got involved. But it was a bit of a rambling mess and people can just google those accounts for themselves if they decide to care, so I'm omitting it for the sake of some brevity. But people should still read and sign this petition to try to free this poor bastard who's been in prison for fifteen years for a false rape accusation even after the accuser recanted and said she'd been forced to make the accusation.) [Edit to clarify that I consider the state of being convicted for rape to be worse for a person to experience, not simply being accused. Accusations alone have proven to be plenty harmful, but not nearly to the extent of winding up imprisoned.] Valatar fucked around with this message at 14:06 on Apr 8, 2015 |
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Apr 8, 2015 13:06
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As someone who also got raped a lot, i'd really rather get accused of rape than get raped again. What the gently caress is the point of this thread?
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Apr 8, 2015 13:19
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Obdicut posted:As someone who also got raped a lot, i'd really rather get accused of rape than get raped again. I think the point the OP is trying to make is that being accused of rape is worse than being raped, and then you disagreed so now we have something to debate which I'm sure will end well.
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Apr 8, 2015 13:21
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It may not be the thread we need, but it sure as poo poo also isn't the thread we deserve
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Apr 8, 2015 13:24
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Dreylad posted:I think the point the OP is trying to make is that being accused of rape is worse than being raped, and then you disagreed so now we have something to debate which I'm sure will end well. OP conflates being accused of rape with actually being convicted of rape, which sucks bad.
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Apr 8, 2015 13:24
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Obdicut posted:OP conflates being accused of rape with actually being convicted of rape, which sucks bad. This is true, though thanks to Internet justice people who are accused of rape are also subject to a significant amount of damage without ever reaching a court. It's not nearly the same as a conviction in the grand scheme of things, but the accusation alone has proven ruinous to some. And given the general state of the justice system in the US, nobody can be completely secure in expecting to not be convicted, unless they happen to be important members of a sports team.
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Apr 8, 2015 13:32
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botany posted:It may not be the thread we need, but it sure as poo poo also isn't the thread we deserve Disagree. D&D was asking for it. edit: For content...I guess... ITT perhaps we could talk about non-judicial procedures forced on colleges by the Department of Education through Title X and how an unsubstantiated allegation can and will ruin your life. wateroverfire fucked around with this message at 13:36 on Apr 8, 2015 |
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Apr 8, 2015 13:33
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Valatar posted:This is true, though thanks to Internet justice people who are accused of rape are also subject to a significant amount of damage without ever reaching a court. Then clean that up in the OP and don't conflate the two. quote:It's not nearly the same as a conviction in the grand scheme of things, but the accusation alone has proven ruinous to some. And given the general state of the justice system in the US, nobody can be completely secure in expecting to not be convicted, unless they happen to be important members of a sports team. In general, rapists tend to be acquitted more than convicted. At really, really high rates. If they ever actually even get accused, which is also less likely then never facing an accusation. Seriously, what is the point of this thread? What do you want talked about? Do you actually want a discussion on whether being raped or accused of rape is worse--that's what you're going for?
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Apr 8, 2015 13:35
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Obdicut posted:In general, rapists tend to be acquitted more than convicted. At really, really high rates. If they ever actually even get accused, which is also less likely then never facing an accusation. Tell that to this guy. In the absence of iron-clad evidence that you could not have been present during a rape, enjoy sweating bullets for months and hope that the judge decides that your unsupported story of events is the more plausible one, because you're one old guy on a bench away from years in the pen. quote:Seriously, what is the point of this thread? What do you want talked about? Do you actually want a discussion on whether being raped or accused of rape is worse--that's what you're going for? The point is that blithely hand-waving away the harm done to someone falsely accused of a horrible crime by saying that the crime itself is worse so they shouldn't have grounds to complain is a lovely position maintained by bad people. The common counter-argument to my point is that the accused person doesn't know what it's like to experience that crime themselves, so their complaint is invalid or insensitive. So my counter-counter argument is that I have experienced the crime, and that I'd consider it preferable to suffering a wrongful conviction for it. I just did a bad job of clarifying that from the accusation alone, because yes, an accusation that goes nowhere and fizzles can still have lasting ramifications, but probably not ones terrible enough that I'd pick door #1 over them if given the choice.
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Apr 8, 2015 14:00
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Valatar posted:Tell that to this guy. In the absence of iron-clad evidence that you could not have been present during a rape, enjoy sweating bullets for months and hope that the judge decides that your unsupported story of events is the more plausible one, because you're one old guy on a bench away from years in the pen. Okay. Do you get why individual anecdotes aren't a good way to proceed with an argument? What I said was in general. In general, a rapist will not be prosecuted; in general, a rapist will not be convicted. These are true statements. In the absence of iron-clad evidence that you could not have been present during a rape, many times you will not be indicted. You continue to conflate being accused, being indicted, being tried, and being convicted. quote:The point is that blithely hand-waving away the harm done to someone falsely accused of a horrible crime by saying that the crime itself is worse so they shouldn't have grounds to complain is a lovely position maintained by bad people. Who are these people? Are you saying I'm blithely hand-waving away the harm done? quote:The common counter-argument to my point is that the accused person doesn't know what it's like to experience that crime themselves, so their complaint is invalid or insensitive. So my counter-counter argument is that I have experienced the crime, and that I'd consider it preferable to suffering a wrongful conviction for it. I just did a bad job of clarifying that from the accusation alone, because yes, an accusation that goes nowhere and fizzles can still have lasting ramifications, but probably not ones terrible enough that I'd pick door #1 over them if given the choice. You continue to conflate, and I think this thread is going to be spectacularly lovely. Even your title is about 'accusations', not about convictions, despite your edit to the OP.
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Apr 8, 2015 14:09
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The issue with your argument is that the statistics don't support it. False rape accusations are infrequent. Sexual assaults and rapes that end without a prosecution are not. Rape kits that are never tested are not. Your perspective as a rape (victim, survivor, whatever term you prefer) is valuable, and nobody's experience should be dismissed, but the statistics outweigh your anecdotal evidence. Even then, the anecdotal evidence isn't on your side. You say that being accused of rape is devastating, which is probably true, but so is being a rape accuser. Women who speak out about their assaults are frequently attacked or harassed verbally. Their experiences are ignored or dismissed. Rapists are regularly supported or protected by existing power structures. In either case, our justice system is inadequate to address rape. It's a crime that can be very difficult to prove and often has no other witnesses, nevermind the rape kits that just aren't being tested. Most accusations aren't going to come to a conviction because of how the system works. The focus then has to be on reducing the number of assaults and stopping people from assaulting women. Creating more suspicion of rape accusers isn't going to help. You're right that many people are convicted of crimes unfairly and that our prison and justice systems are deeply flawed, but people accused of rape are not the victims of that. Drug laws, race, and money issues play a much larger part.
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Apr 8, 2015 14:14
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Valatar posted:The point is that blithely hand-waving away the harm done to someone falsely accused of a horrible crime by saying that the crime itself is worse so they shouldn't have grounds to complain is a lovely position maintained by bad people. choice. I don't think anyone disagrees with this and sincee it's the whole point of the thread maybe you could indicate where anyone said this? False rape accusations are handwaved away in argument because they almost never happen. They certainly don't happen with anywhere near the frequency suggested by the kind of people most likely to bring them up in any discussion of actual rape. That doesn't mean they aren't bad or harmful, but they don't happen enough to be relevant to the overall discussion usually being had.
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Apr 8, 2015 14:21
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Nevvy Z posted:I don't think anyone disagrees with this and sincee it's the whole point of the thread maybe you could indicate where anyone said this? False rape accusations are handwaved away in argument because they almost never happen. They certainly don't happen with anywhere near the frequency suggested by the kind of people most likely to bring them up in any discussion of actual rape. That doesn't mean they aren't bad or harmful, but they don't happen enough to be relevant to the overall discussion usually being had. And, as FactsAreUseless pointed out, a very similar set of harms tends to occur to the woman accusing someone of rape.
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Apr 8, 2015 14:26
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Valatar posted:This testament to ill-advised middle of the night D&D posting is brought to you by Twitter. 
breadshaped fucked around with this message at 14:54 on Apr 8, 2015 |
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Apr 8, 2015 14:28
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Obdicut posted:And, as FactsAreUseless pointed out, a very similar set of harms tends to occur to the woman accusing someone of rape.
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Apr 8, 2015 14:29
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Obdicut posted:Okay. Do you get why individual anecdotes aren't a good way to proceed with an argument? If the neighbor kid points you out and is all, 'There's the bad person that touched me!' are you going to laugh and think, 'Well gee, in general I won't be prosecuted or convicted!' Somehow I expect that you'll find the generalities to be very cold comfort when you're staring down the barrel of a decade or two behind bars and a lifetime stigma, even if the odds of it are slim. The fact that a conviction is on the table as a real possibility is itself enough to make a person into a gibbering wreck even if it doesn't wind up coming true. quote:Who are these people? Are you saying I'm blithely hand-waving away the harm done? No, as I mentioned in the OP, I'm referring to random posting people on blogs and twitter. So unless you're one of those people, I'm not including you in that. quote:You continue to conflate, and I think this thread is going to be spectacularly lovely. Even your title is about 'accusations', not about convictions, despite your edit to the OP. Some amount of conflation is unavoidable. Accusations are the necessary first step towards convictions, even if the result isn't the probable one.
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Apr 8, 2015 14:32
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What is the point of this post? Is there something to debate here? Does anyone (not trolling) really believe rape isn't a bad thing? Are you saying that anyone who is accused of rape should be immediately condemned because (paraphrased from above) "false rape accusations are so infrequent that it shouldn't even be accounted for"? IDGI!!! edit: By the way, I was raped too... so anyone who disagrees with me about my feelings on this topic is a rape apologist. Womyn Capote fucked around with this message at 14:35 on Apr 8, 2015 |
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Apr 8, 2015 14:33
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The OP is just arguing against some strawman. This thread is useless.
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Apr 8, 2015 14:36
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Valatar posted:If the neighbor kid points you out and is all, 'There's the bad person that touched me!' are you going to laugh and think, 'Well gee, in general I won't be prosecuted or convicted!' Somehow I expect that you'll find the generalities to be very cold comfort when you're staring down the barrel of a decade or two behind bars and a lifetime stigma, even if the odds of it are slim. The fact that a conviction is on the table as a real possibility is itself enough to make a person into a gibbering wreck even if it doesn't wind up coming true. Again, do you understand why anecdotes are a bad way to approach this? If the odds are something are slim, then that is, actually, a comfort, yes. If the odds were significant, that would be far scarier. And again, the accuser also faces huge societal harms from making the accusation. The statistics on false accusations, even the worst-case scenario, is that they are a small minority of accusations. So more often, when a rape accusation is brought, an innocent woman suffers than an innocent man. Far more often. Does this mean that it's not bad when the innocent man suffers due to a false accusation? No. It sucks when anyone suffers from a false accusation of any kind. Nobody has ever argued against that. I cannot see any target for your argument other than a strawman. The amount of unreported rape is depressingly large, as well, which you're not addressing. quote:No, as I mentioned in the OP, I'm referring to random posting people on blogs and twitter. So unless you're one of those people, I'm not including you in that. Why do you give a poo poo about them? Are they a significant majority of the population? Is it possible that you're not actually understanding their argument, as you don't seem to be understanding mine? quote:Some amount of conflation is unavoidable. Accusations are the necessary first step towards convictions, even if the result isn't the probable one. Your amount of conflation is huge, completely avoidable, and you keep doing it.
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Apr 8, 2015 14:38
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Valatar posted:If the neighbor kid points you out and is all, 'There's the bad person that touched me!' are you going to laugh and think, 'Well gee, in general I won't be prosecuted or convicted!' Somehow I expect that you'll find the generalities to be very cold comfort when you're staring down the barrel of a decade or two behind bars and a lifetime stigma, even if the odds of it are slim. The fact that a conviction is on the table as a real possibility is itself enough to make a person into a gibbering wreck even if it doesn't wind up coming true. Here's the basic issue: false rape accusations are obviously destructive and terrible, but are uncommon. Fears of false accusations are common, and also place a burden on actual victims of rape. Your fear of false accusations causes more widespread harm than the actual accusations.
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Apr 8, 2015 14:38
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Why is subjecting a barrage of criticism and shame upon a rape accuser when that accusation is false a bad thing?
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Apr 8, 2015 14:41
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DONT CARE BUTTON posted:What is the point of this post? Is there something to debate here? Does anyone (not trolling) really believe rape isn't a bad thing? Are you saying that anyone who is accused of rape should be immediately condemned because (paraphrased from above) "false rape accusations are so infrequent that it shouldn't even be accounted for"? IDGI!!! A poster seems to be arguing that. IDK, this wikipedia article suggests there is substantial disagreement about the prevalence of false claims and even how to measure that statistic, and maintaining that they're so rare we should discard them seems more like an ideological position than one well founded in fact. This piece from Cathy Young on Slate's Double X is a pretty nuanced look at the topic and why, ideology aside, figuring out which claims are false is just pretty hard to do.
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Apr 8, 2015 14:42
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Nevvy Z posted:The OP is just arguing against some strawman. This thread is useless. Maybe we could talk about whether or not someone who knowingly falsely accuse someone of rape should face some sort of legal sanction. I've seen people in D&D argue that they definitely should not under any circumstances, because it would have a chilling effect on actual rape victims, and make them less likely to come forward.
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Apr 8, 2015 14:43
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Radbot posted:Why is subjecting a barrage of criticism and shame upon a rape accuser when that accusation is false a bad thing?
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Apr 8, 2015 14:43
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Obdicut posted:Your amount of conflation is huge, completely avoidable, and you keep doing it. This is hilarious. Considering the sheer volume of stupidity you spewed in the previous rape thread before getting mad and refusing to post anymore.
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Apr 8, 2015 15:05
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spacetoaster posted:This is hilarious. Considering the sheer volume of stupidity you spewed in the previous rape thread before getting mad and refusing to post anymore. An example of such being:
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Apr 8, 2015 15:07
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FactsAreUseless posted:Because that same barrage is applied to all rape accusers with the default assumption being that they're false, which, again, isn't supported by any data. It seems difficult to rely on data in this situation. How, exactly, would a researcher discover (or hell, get funding for) what percentage of rape claims were false, vs. simply unprosecuted for some reason? Peppering a rape accuser with leading questions?
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Apr 8, 2015 15:14
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Radbot posted:It seems difficult to rely on data in this situation. How, exactly, would a researcher discover (or hell, get funding for) what percentage of rape claims were false, vs. simply unprosecuted for some reason? Peppering a rape accuser with leading questions?
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Apr 8, 2015 15:19
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I think it's potentially dangerous to conflate or group 1. fabricated accusals of rape (exceedingly rare, what appears to have happened in the Rolling Stone case) 2. the wrong person being identified as rapist (not as rare)
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Apr 8, 2015 15:24
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Exclamation Marx posted:I think it's potentially dangerous to conflate or group
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Apr 8, 2015 15:27
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Exclamation Marx posted:I think it's potentially dangerous to conflate or group It is also dangerous to draw parallels or comparisons to something only tangentially related: the experience of actually being raped.
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Apr 8, 2015 15:29
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Radbot posted:It seems difficult to rely on data in this situation. How, exactly, would a researcher discover (or hell, get funding for) what percentage of rape claims were false, vs. simply unprosecuted for some reason? Peppering a rape accuser with leading questions? The data is very problematic, but without data, you have nothing. The main caveat is that most numbers you seen thrown around for false accusations are based on decisions on credibility made by the police, which is obviously a horribly flawed way that overestimates the number of false accusations. Similarly, other stats call any case where a man is found not guilty of rape as a false accusation. Given the large harm that comes to a woman through an accusation, the default sociological assumption is that that behavior would be rare because it's enormously self-destructive. There are obvious reasons where individual instances may have a higher probability of a false accusation, but those tend to be highly contingent circumstances. There's no large class of rape accusations where the accuser faces no or small amounts of opprobrium or fallout for doing so. I have no problem with someone who perjured themselves in order to accuse someone of rape being arrested and tried for that. I don't think 'false accusation of rape' should be any sort of separate charge, and obviously you'd have to have very clear-cut evidence that the woman had lied rather than the truth just being not possible to adjudicate.
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Apr 8, 2015 15:30
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Obdicut posted:It sucks when anyone suffers from a false accusation of any kind. Nobody has ever argued against that. I cannot see any target for your argument other than a strawman. My example twitter in the OP is a verbatim quote, minus a few of the emoticons. I could do a wander through various social networks and scoop up a few handfuls of posts similar to that for extra specific examples, but I have to crash for work. I have never seen a goon making that argument on these forums, if that's what you mean. I'm referring to random assholes on the internet, just enough of them that I've seen that sentiment enough times to irk me. quote:The amount of unreported rape is depressingly large, as well, which you're not addressing. Because that's irrelevant to this. It's a very relevant problem on its own, and none of the survivors I know have reported to any official sort of agency beyond friends and sometimes family, which sort of proves the problem. My relative is in prison for unrelated crimes without my having gone to the police, and since he's staying nicely locked away for the next twenty or so years I'm not feeling any great motivation to subject my family to that when there's no danger of his getting out and attacking some random innocent on the street, and the bullets involved in his capture pretty much guaranteed he's no danger to the other inmates. But my reporting or not reporting isn't going to do anything to change the situation for some poor rear end in a top hat who gets called a rapist on national news or even just on twitter and has to face the possibility of losing their family and life. You can say that there's only a one in fifty chance that they wind up convicted, and be completely correct, but that doesn't improve anything for them if they happen to be number fifty, or more likely one of the other forty-nine who escaped conviction but still had their lives completely hosed thanks to millions of people seeing them identified as an alleged rapist.
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Apr 8, 2015 15:41
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FactsAreUseless posted:This isn't an issue I've looked at. Do you have any links that discuss misidentification? Most assaults are by people close to, or at least known to, the victim. You say it's not as rare, so I'd be curious to see how often the problem even comes up. The last statistics I saw were actually along the lines of forty-something percent being strangers, with the remainder being split between family and acquaintances. Which still falls under 'most are known to the victim', but still results in a whole lot of attacks by strangers. So the problem of incorrectly picking a person from a lineup and getting an innocent person sent up the river (especially when that person happens to be a minority) happens with more regularity than anyone would like. I don't have anything nearly approaching exact numbers, but solely from my recollection I'd say that I've seen a 'black guy gets cleared of rape charges after years in prison from his accuser mistakenly fingering him as her attacker thanks to DNA evidence' roughly once a month in the local paper.
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Apr 8, 2015 15:47
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Valatar posted:My example twitter in the OP is a verbatim quote, minus a few of the emoticons. I could do a wander through various social networks and scoop up a few handfuls of posts similar to that for extra specific examples, but I have to crash for work. I have never seen a goon making that argument on these forums, if that's what you mean. I'm referring to random assholes on the internet, just enough of them that I've seen that sentiment enough times to irk me. Why do you give a poo poo about them? You can dip into youtube comments and find endless people complaining that the Jews run the world and all women are bitches. Who cares? What's the outcome? quote:Because that's irrelevant to this. It's a very relevant problem on its own, and none of the survivors I know have reported to any official sort of agency beyond friends and sometimes family, which sort of proves the problem. It is extremely relevant, obviously, because one of the main reasons people do not report is because they fear the consequence: that they will be accused of having made a false accusation. How is this not relevant? quote:You can say that there's only a one in fifty chance that they wind up convicted, and be completely correct, but that doesn't improve anything for them if they happen to be number fifty, or more likely one of the other forty-nine who escaped conviction but still had their lives completely hosed thanks to millions of people seeing them identified as an alleged rapist. Okay, what is your basis for saying that everyone who is accused of rape has their lives completely hosed? What do millions of people having seen it matter--how does that gently caress them? I'm not saying it isn't damaging, but you're saying 'completley hosed'. And again, there's that one guy who gets convicted while innocent, and the forty-nine who get accused and are innocent, and then the much, much larger number who don't even get accused, or get accused and never get arrested, or get arrested but don't get indicted, or who are found not guilty. Why do you keep leaving them out of your numbers? I'm assuming you just made up the 1 in 50 stat for men being falsely accused being convicted, right? Another bizarre thing you do is act as though the chance of being convicted on a false accusation and a true accusation are equal.
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Apr 8, 2015 15:49
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FactsAreUseless posted:This isn't an issue I've looked at. Do you have any links that discuss misidentification? Most assaults are by people close to, or at least known to, the victim. You say it's not as rare, so I'd be curious to see how often the problem even comes up. No I don't, it was just a thought I had re: false accusal, since they're quite different things which both fit under that umbrella. I'd say both types are given undue prominence in the public consciousness thanks to shows like SVU that need a fun new twist each week. Sexual crime stats are notoriously difficult, so I think most reading on misidentification would be more general and talk about that classic issue of people's memories playing tricks on them when e.g. looking at a police lineup, or police taking shortcuts to try get a conviction. Recently here a man had his conviction of rape and murder overturned after 21 years of imprisonment, he has FAS (and so the mental age of an 8-year-old) and falsely confessed under police pressure because he thought he'd get the $50k reward being offered for information. I don't think that the malicious or attention-seeking woman scenario is really worth discussing at all, since it's so vanishingly rare and self-evidently terrible. On the other hand you have a wealth of issues like the depressingly low rate of reportage; police wrongly making gut decisions not to prosecute; the unique place that sexual assault cases have where there is less of an assumption of innocence due to their inherent he-said-she-said nature; etc.
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Apr 8, 2015 15:54
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Valatar posted:Because that's irrelevant to this. Valatar posted:an innocent person sent up the river (especially when that person happens to be a minority) My concern is that anything that feeds into the common perception that false accusations are more common than they are gives ammo to those who would protect rapists, while not addressing these systemic problems.
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Apr 8, 2015 15:57
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Obdicut posted:Given the large harm that comes to a woman through an accusation, the default sociological assumption is that that behavior would be rare because it's enormously self-destructive. This seems like extremely flawed thinking. Murdering people would put you in jail, no one likes jail, hence it's unlikely people get murdered. Also people don't get addicted to destructive drugs, because what rational actor would do that? You could be right but thinking like this isn't going to get us there. I also don't understand why it matters that false accusation is rare - transgender people are EXTREMELY rare. Should I not care about their rights?
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Apr 8, 2015 16:05
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Radbot posted:Why is subjecting a barrage of criticism and shame upon a rape accuser when that accusation is false a bad thing? Because some people will heap the criticism without evidence that the accusation is false. If an accuser gets caught in clear perjury and gets charged with perjury, fine. But the court of the internet is notoriously bad at picking the innocent from the guilty, attacking the accuser is not something I'd ever condone. Better that all of the false accusers get off than even one honest accuser get crucified by the internet. I'd put "being raped and then called a liar by thousands" above "being wrongly convicted of rape" on the bad stuff chart, it's pretty much the worst of both rolled into one.
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Apr 8, 2015 16:07
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Radbot posted:I also don't understand why it matters that false accusation is rare - transgender people are EXTREMELY rare. Should I not care about their rights?
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Apr 8, 2015 16:08
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