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Obdicut posted:All analogies are dumb, basically. Well I think that's kind of the point people that insist on taking a victory lap are making though, there were things about the Rolling Stone article that just seemed beyond belief, and people pointing that out got labeled as rape deniers.
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Apr 13, 2015 22:31
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Jarmak posted:Well I think that's kind of the point people that insist on taking a victory lap are making though, there were things about the Rolling Stone article that just seemed beyond belief, and people pointing that out got labeled as rape deniers. I don't know what you mean about victory lap. Obviously saying that a certain story sounds less credible shouldn't get you called a rape denier, but the story isn't 'beyond belief'. Women have been raped in more gruesome and horrific conditions than Jackie was alleging. The Vanderbilt rape was only a little less awful.
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Apr 13, 2015 22:35
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I think one thing that maybe some people are missing is that when the statistics say false accusations are rare, that means accusations that actually were formally made to the police and followed through. Those statistics say nothing as to whether a campus rumour or a click bait news story is or is not true; both come from an entirely different population with different sampling rules.
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Apr 13, 2015 22:58
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radmonger posted:I think one thing that maybe some people are missing is that when the statistics say false accusations are rare, that means accusations that actually were formally made to the police and followed through. Not necessarily. Please read the paper that I linked previously, as well as the papers in the bibliography, to get a better handle on the statistics. It is especially not true for the 'followed through' part of your claim. quote:Those statistics say nothing as to whether a campus rumour or a click bait news story is or is not true; both come from an entirely different population with different sampling rules. It doesn't come from an entirely different population, no, just a different population. But yeah, there's a different level of scrutiny, but since women will face similar opprobrium in both situations--for an actual accusation against an actual person--there's not a reason to believe the numbers are going to be wildly different.
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Apr 13, 2015 23:21
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Obdicut posted:I don't know what you mean about victory lap. Obviously saying that a certain story sounds less credible shouldn't get you called a rape denier, but the story isn't 'beyond belief'. Women have been raped in more gruesome and horrific conditions than Jackie was alleging. The Vanderbilt rape was only a little less awful. In that thread the unliklier elements were widely pointed out and as mentioned people decided RS was credible. The only people who got called rape deniers were the people who were flat out saying "Theres no way this happened and she has to be lying" and even if they were right they had no real way of knowing that at the time. Stopped clock exactly.
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Apr 13, 2015 23:40
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PT6A posted:There's a difference between being overly paranoid about false rape accusations, which you are correct about here, and how you'd react to you, yourself, being one of the extremely few people to whom it actually happens. Being falsely accused of any crime, especially one that carries a very strong stigma with it, is an extremely scary, unpleasant experience, even if it's not particularly likely to happen to you. People are falsely accused and occasionally convicted of all sorts of crimes. I think a woman who has made a false rape accusation will get a lot more death and rape threats than an accused rapist. So let's add that to the calculus.
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Apr 14, 2015 01:16
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Obdicut posted:I don't know what you mean about victory lap. Obviously saying that a certain story sounds less credible shouldn't get you called a rape denier, but the story isn't 'beyond belief'. Women have been raped in more gruesome and horrific conditions than Jackie was alleging. The Vanderbilt rape was only a little less awful. By people taking a victory lap I mean certain folks that where dog-piled for doubting the story are now taking great pleasure in gloating about the fact they were correct. It wasn't that the story was horrific that was caused me to have doubts, it was the reaction of others in the story to the horror. It was the fact it was passed as some sort of regular ritual that had been ongoing for a long time among many people without resistance, the fact the she walked through a busy party bleeding and brutally beaten and no one noticed, and the fact that her friends reacted by telling her "what about your reputation" when picking up a girl who had brutally beaten and violently gang raped. People are quick to dismiss date rapes and alcohol-based rapes (for lack of a better term) because its easier to pretend such bad things don't happen. This story seemed to be trying to extend the narrative of looking the other way to something so horrific and blatant there is no looking the other way from, especially the friend's reaction. I've had my share of experience with horror and that's just not how I've observed people to react, they'll go out of their way bending over backwards to not see it, to pretend its not there, they don't look right at it and acknowledge it and then act like its no big deal. I know that's not universal, so I can't claim that I knew it from the beginning or anything, or that I was sure, its just as the story progressed to the aftermath I went from being horrified to feeling like there was something not right about the whole story. I know that fits right in with my on statement that people find any excuse to deny the existence of such poo poo, and maybe that's true to some degree, but my reaction to reading a story is not the same reaction you'd expect from a girl's friends as they pick her up undeniably beaten bloody.
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Apr 14, 2015 02:16
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Jarmak posted:By people taking a victory lap I mean certain folks that where dog-piled for doubting the story are now taking great pleasure in gloating about the fact they were correct. Well, they're shitheads, but who cares about them, really. If they're going to be that sort of assholes they're going to be that sort of assholes, all you can do is despise them. quote:It wasn't that the story was horrific that was caused me to have doubts, it was the reaction of others in the story to the horror. It was the fact it was passed as some sort of regular ritual that had been ongoing for a long time among many people without resistance, the fact the she walked through a busy party bleeding and brutally beaten and no one noticed, and the fact that her friends reacted by telling her "what about your reputation" when picking up a girl who had brutally beaten and violently gang raped. People are quick to dismiss date rapes and alcohol-based rapes (for lack of a better term) because its easier to pretend such bad things don't happen. This story seemed to be trying to extend the narrative of looking the other way to something so horrific and blatant there is no looking the other way from, especially the friend's reaction. I've had my share of experience with horror and that's just not how I've observed people to react, they'll go out of their way bending over backwards to not see it, to pretend its not there, they don't look right at it and acknowledge it and then act like its no big deal. Okay, I'm not sure what your point is. That everyone should have known the story wasn't true? I mean, the more obvious thing would be to think that it had been exaggerated, or some facets of it weren't true, right?
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Apr 14, 2015 03:39
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Obdicut posted:Well, they're shitheads, but who cares about them, really. If they're going to be that sort of assholes they're going to be that sort of assholes, all you can do is despise them. I'm not actually being hostile toward you, I was just stating my perception of things, and yes, your second statement was pretty much my reaction.
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Apr 14, 2015 04:07
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Jarmak posted:I'm not actually being hostile toward you, I was just stating my perception of things, and yes, your second statement was pretty much my reaction. I didn't say anything about you being hostile, nor did my post in any way imply that you were being hostile.
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Apr 14, 2015 04:13
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Obdicut posted:It turns out to be false, which is statistically highly unlikely What statistics are you using? The only peer reviewed study I could find was from 20 years ago, for one city, and put the false rape accusations at 41%. Pretty sure that number is inflated because some of the women recanted due to pressure of some sort. http://sf-criminaldefense.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/KaninFalseRapeAllegations.pdf quote:These false allegations appear to serve spacetoaster fucked around with this message at 05:28 on Apr 14, 2015 |
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Apr 14, 2015 05:26
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Obdicut posted:I didn't say anything about you being hostile, nor did my post in any way imply that you were being hostile. You just responded in an adversarial manner and I was saying I wasn't trying to argue with you.
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Apr 14, 2015 05:57
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spacetoaster posted:What statistics are you using? I already cited my sources already--just click the little ? under my name--and yeah, the source from 20 years ago is a terrible one. Jarmak posted:You just responded in an adversarial manner and I was saying I wasn't trying to argue with you. I don't know what to say. That wasn't adversarial. I asked what your point was. I still don't really know. I, too, immediately had doubts about the Rolling Stone story, and felt it must have been exaggerated or jazzed up for journalistic reasons. At no point was I ever called a rape denier.
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Apr 14, 2015 10:53
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Obdicut posted:I already cited my sources already--just click the little ? under my name--and yeah, the source from 20 years ago is a terrible one. That source doesn't back up the idea that false claims are extremely low, is the thing. It's a study about how we don't have good numbers that cautions against running with that received wisdom in the name of social justice. Paper here. From the conclusion, page posted:The issue of false rape allegations also has implications for scholarship, as well as the enforcement of rape law. The literature on false allegations requires careful analysis, yet such an approach Hmm. So where does that 3% number for England come from? It's the result of one study conducted by researchers who went through the written case files and made their own judgements about which claims were false. Why is that one result, which is at odds with police estimates and pretty much all the other results on the topic, authoritative?
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Apr 14, 2015 13:14
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Popular Thug Drink posted:while we're on the subject, what do you think of murder? approve/disapprove? I'm against it
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Apr 14, 2015 13:57
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I don't think we should talk about murder without mentioning all the false accusations of murder that society takes all too lightly.
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Apr 14, 2015 13:59
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Why would you even open up that can of worms, smh
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Apr 14, 2015 14:04
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VitalSigns posted:I don't think we should talk about murder without mentioning all the false accusations of murder that society takes all too lightly. Victims of murder have been through enough and we should Listen and Believe when they tell their stories because they very seldom lie.
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Apr 14, 2015 14:06
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wateroverfire posted:Victims of murder have been through enough and we should Listen and Believe when they tell their stories because they very seldom lie. A Hamlet post
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Apr 14, 2015 14:08
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VitalSigns posted:A Hamlet post Let's all agree that shitlord Hamlet slut shaming Gertrude makes this play problematic. Literally says "mom you can keep ur knees closed" how is this play still acceptable.
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Apr 14, 2015 14:21
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Hamlet the elder is just lying for attention guys. He fell down the stairs and knocked the poison into his own ear, Claudius is being framed!
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Apr 14, 2015 14:26
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Obdicut posted:I already cited my sources already--just click the little ? under my name--and yeah, the source from 20 years ago is a terrible one. Interesting study. It puts the number of false rape accusations at 10.9%. That's not insignificant. quote:the number of reports no-crimed for being false/malicious in this study was around 10.9%
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Apr 14, 2015 14:34
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Edit: Was that the british metastudy he linked?
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Apr 14, 2015 14:41
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spacetoaster posted:Interesting study. It puts the number of false rape accusations at 10.9%. That's not insignificant. 10.9% is probably not right. 3% is probably not right. The point of the metastudy was that we don't have good numbers because it's a touchy political issue, because the facts are often muddy and subject to an officer's (or a researcher's) subjective judgement, and because to date there's no sound methodology for figuring out if an accuser is lying, and that in the absence of good information we shouldn't assume anything about false accusations. That they're very rare is an ideological assumption as was the assumption 40 years ago that they were very common.
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Apr 14, 2015 14:52
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spacetoaster posted:Interesting study. It puts the number of false rape accusations at 10.9%. That's not insignificant. I guess I should be thankful you didn't choose the 90% study out of the list.
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Apr 14, 2015 15:16
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archangelwar posted:I guess I should be thankful you didn't choose the 90% study out of the list. I didn't pick anything from a list. That's the finding before they started to mitigate it with opinions.
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Apr 14, 2015 15:44
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Well the current rape epidemic certainly isn't helped by the fact that any actual discussion of the context of the rape invariably winds up in shouts of victim blaming and or failure to analyze a greater trend relating to economic status.
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Apr 14, 2015 15:58
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spacetoaster posted:I didn't pick anything from a list. That's the finding before they started to mitigate it with opinions. The only link provided by Obdicut was a meta-study that does not pick a single number and start to mitigate it with opinions. I am not even sure how you managed to pick that number out of the surrounding list. Even wateroverfire managed to understand this.
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Apr 14, 2015 16:36
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Rape is a crime. If a woman claims to have been raped, that crime should be investigated. If guilt cannot be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, then the accused is to be acquited. If it comes to light that the woman lied about the rape in order to injure the accused or gain fame or money, the woman should be charged with filing a false report and perjury if applicable. If a man is jailed for the crime of rape, and definitive proof is found that the accuser deliberately lied, the accuser should be charged with a crime similar to as if she imprisoned the man herself, ie if he was in prison for 10 years, the accuser should be charged as if she had him tied up in her basement for 10 years. Thank you for letting this fat autist cislord post his opinion. Good day.
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Apr 14, 2015 16:42
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WorldsStrongestNerd posted:Rape is a crime. If a woman claims to have been raped, that crime should be investigated. If guilt cannot be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, then the accused is to be acquited. If it comes to light that the woman lied about the rape in order to injure the accused or gain fame or money, the woman should be charged with filing a false report and perjury if applicable.
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Apr 14, 2015 17:12
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WorldsStrongestNerd posted:Rape is a crime. If a woman claims to have been raped, that crime should be investigated. If guilt cannot be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, then the accused is to be acquited. If it comes to light that the woman lied about the rape in order to injure the accused or gain fame or money, the woman should be charged with filing a false report and perjury if applicable. 99% of the time rape is reprehensible. 99% of the time rape is an action so horrific it deserves universal contempt. But there are rare instances in which even the act of rape can in fact be justified. Here are four off the top of my head: 1. As punisment for a false accusation of rape in which the punishment has already been meted out. Suppose Heather has a crush on Dick, a man with suitably Freudian moniker. Heather hits on Dick, but Dick takes no notice of her. In reality, Dick wants nothing to do with Heather. Heather, after realizing this, plots revenge. She goes to a bar and lies to the tough guys there "I was raped! Dick did it!" The mob, riled up, surrounds Dick and beats him to death, despite Dick's pleas. They leave, while Heather examines the corpse. Unbeknownst to her, a big black man was watching the entire ordeal, from the accusation to the beating. "I saw what you did," says the black man, "and now you're gonna get what's coming to you". It would be that man's moral right to rape the living poo poo out of that worthless oval office. Alternatively, suppose after the beating, Dick gets back up, but the hemmoraging in his brain leaves him only five minutes to live. Dick too would have the right to rape her within the remaining timeframe of his life. Since he was punished for a crime he didn't do, he might as well commit it. 2. As retribution for a previously committed rape. Suppose there's this really dorky kid. Every day a hot bombshell of a babe torments him in school. Rubbing up against him, grabbig his balls and cock, saying she wants him. This drives him to the point of lustful insanity, and he wants no more of it. The kid, eager to get revenge, enlists the help of a friend. The friend will be on the lookout, while he makes his move. The girl comes in and starts harassing him. "Come on baby, I want that hot cock up my pulsating pussy." she says. "You're wish is my comand, ma'am" replies the kid, as he physically throws himself upon his assailant, assailing her in return. He presses up against her, copping a feel, rubbing. When he has satisfied himself, he stops, much to the horror of the girl. This too is an act of justifiable rape. It is akin to a kidnapped victim strangling his kidnapper with the very ropes used to tie him up. This also happened in real life. I was the friend who did the lookout. 3. As punishment for a revealing form of dress. Suppose there's this girl, let's call her Sarah. Sarah lives a rotten lifestyle. She swears at her parents, drinks, does drugs, goes to parties, and gets hosed up. Worst of all, she dresses like a total slut, but only lets popular guys gently caress her. One day at a party full of drugged up scumbags, she passes out on the sofa. A scumbag teenager takes advantage of her. While the act of raping her would be wrong, considering the lifestyle she leads, it would also serve as a wake up call to her as well as her getting her just deserts. Therefore, in a sense, raping her would be justified. 4. As a last recourse to save the human race from extinction. There is a nuclear war. The survivors are divided into two groups. 10,000 men, and 10,000 nuns (alternatively, 10,000 militant man-hating lesbians). The only way to save the human race is through the act of vaginal intercourse. But there's a catch. the nuns/lesbians do not want to have sex. And they are adamant. Therefore, to save the human race, the only viable option would be for the 10,000 men to rape the 10,000 women, preferably tying them down so that multiple children could be administered. Though a woman's sexual and reproductive rights are sacred, they pale in comparison to the survival to the human race. I hope you enjoyed this dissertation, and I hope it generates some intelligent, profound discussion.
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Apr 14, 2015 17:15
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archangelwar posted:The only link provided by Obdicut was a meta-study that does not pick a single number and start to mitigate it with opinions. When following their methodology they got the 10.9% they decided they didn't like it so they started lowering the number by saying that the data gathered had to be wrong and making up numbers for how much they thought the data was wrong. archangelwar posted:I am not even sure how you managed to pick that number out of the surrounding list. I read the entire study and looked at some of the sources? Look, if you've got a better study post it. spacetoaster fucked around with this message at 17:20 on Apr 14, 2015 |
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Apr 14, 2015 17:18
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archangelwar posted:The only link provided by Obdicut was a meta-study that does not pick a single number and start to mitigate it with opinions. I am not even sure how you managed to pick that number out of the surrounding list. Even wateroverfire managed to understand this. But ironicly Obdicut did not understand it. Makes you think. edit: The point of the metastudy was "stop saying this happens very infrequently it's bro-criminology", which is a message that seems to be lost when the study is cited as support for the idea that false allegations of rape happen very infrequently. edit2: Pardon my gendertyping no offense meant to misusers of research who don't identify as bros. wateroverfire fucked around with this message at 17:40 on Apr 14, 2015 |
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Apr 14, 2015 17:31
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I think possibly the only just thing to do, if a person be subjected to a claim of rape that is proven to be false, is to allow that person one no-struggle freebie on the acuser. Something to consider.
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Apr 14, 2015 17:35
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Popular Thug Drink posted:99% of the time rape is reprehensible. 99% of the time rape is an action so horrific it deserves universal contempt. But there are rare instances in which even the act of rape can in fact be justified. Here are four off the top of my head:
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Apr 14, 2015 17:36
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I forget where that is from, but it is glorious.
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Apr 14, 2015 17:37
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FactsAreUseless posted:This kind of "simple" criminal justice solution is always stupid, and I hope I don't have to explain why. Please explain. I will read your post, think about it, and if I disagree we will debate and discuss it. With your attitude I have to wonder why you are even in this forum. Popular thug drink, I disagree that rape can be punishment for rape or any other crime. In the USA that would constitute cruel and unusual punishment, which is prohibited by our constitution. WorldsStongestNerd fucked around with this message at 17:42 on Apr 14, 2015 |
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Apr 14, 2015 17:39
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spacetoaster posted:When following their methodology they got the 10.9% they decided they didn't like it so they started lowering the number by saying that the data gathered had to be wrong and making up numbers for how much they thought the data was wrong. 10.9% is one of multiple results from Harris and Grace (1999) (note that the linked study is not Harris and Grace) and is mentioned precisely once in the study surrounded by citations from over 20 sources that range from 1.5%-90%. The paper is a meta-study whose purpose is to examine the poor results from disparate methodology and convey the message that more and better scholarship should be applied to the subject. Like, I don't even know how you managed to read more than a sentence from the link and make the post that you have without being pants on head stupid. Hell the paper in the very next paragraph cites 50% and 27% so the idea that they are "lowering the number" is just astronomically asinine. quote:But ironicly Obdicut did not understand it. Makes you think. At least he chose a number that he felt aligned with what he perceived to be the right methodology. Spacetoaster is just making things up whole cloth. Also note that I am not defending Obdicut's choice.
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Apr 14, 2015 17:39
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WorldsStrongestNerd posted:Please explain. I will read your post, think about it, and if I disagree we will debate and discuss it. With your attitude I have to wonder why you are even in this forum. Rape involves a lot of extremely hazy territory concerning issues like consent that the judicial system is not very well equipped to deal with.
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Apr 14, 2015 17:41
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WorldsStrongestNerd posted:Please explain. I will read your post, think about it, and if I disagree we will debate and discuss it. With your attitude I have to wonder why you are even in this forum. I'm a fairly lonely guy. I have my group of friends, and we hang out in the computer lab at lunch. I think my friends are cool, but they're all guys. I don't really have any women in my life. Well that's not entirely true. I have a sister, Laurie. Since grade 7, everyone around me has been dating, everyone except for my clique. Anyways, lately, my friends have started getting girlfriends, I'm really happy for them, but it leaves them with less time to spend with me. I see how happy they are with their ladies, and frankly, I'm jealous. Last week my friend James called me up to tell me that he had just gone down on his girlfriend, for the first time. He said it was really cool. He's been encouraging me to get a lady of my own for quite some time, to "reap the rewards of having a woman" as he puts it. I don't think I'm ready. Well, its not that I'm not ready, I'm just not in a position of getting a woman. Anyways, back to what this is all about. I like women, but have no access to them. The only exception being Laurie. Ever since James called me up, talking about how cool vaginas are, well, I've been curious, thanks to DPPH I know all about their construction, but, well, the Internet doesn't lend itself to transferring smells. I'll just say it. For the last couple of days, I've been going into my sister's laundry, and smelling her panties. It's not too hard; I just say I'm doing a load of wash, or wait for everyone to leave, and then go into her hamper. I'm in no way sexually attracted to my sister; this doesn't have anything to do with her. I just love the smell of vagina, and she has one. I don't think this is too wrong, but I'm afraid to ask my friends if they have done it. Is this normal?
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Apr 14, 2015 18:19
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