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A White Guy posted:We also can't play as ~the mystery faction~, either I might make some musical contributions myself. A White Guy posted:I 100% want people to talk about the RCW, and all the horrible poo poo that happened. Westerners and Americans really don't know a lot about this, when it's one of the defining parts of Russian history that's shaped the present. Please, post about it. Edit: 
Xander77 fucked around with this message at 18:20 on Apr 11, 2015 |
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Apr 11, 2015 09:41
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What's that unit in the far north off-map area (Arkhangelsk?) on the strategic map?
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Apr 11, 2015 11:46
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Can we not try to run Fitskhelaurov down by the banks of the river, or is his supply not enough to move about? It looks like we should be able to sneak by the chokepoint at Tzaritsyn by moving through Kalach-On-Don, and the blocking force is off to his west when he needs to go east. Rolls in these games can be so brutal, particularly at sea as there are no modifiers you can count on to give you an edge, that me may as well chance it on whether or not the rebels will move out of Tzaritsyn in force. I really like these games (even PoN had good ideas, but it flew too close to the sun), but never played this one.
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Apr 11, 2015 12:08
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Tevery Best posted:What's that unit in the far north off-map area (Arkhangelsk?) on the strategic map? That's actually a unit sitting in Murmansk, which gets it own little box (Arkhangelsk is on the regular map in the far Northeastern corner) . Right now its composed of inactive British expeditionary forces and locked French garrison. I'll show this off when Miller (the Northern White Army leader) shows up, but that won't be for a while. Ghost of Mussolini posted:Can we not try to run Fitskhelaurov down by the banks of the river, or is his supply not enough to move about? It looks like we should be able to sneak by the chokepoint at Tzaritsyn by moving through Kalach-On-Don, and the blocking force is off to his west when he needs to go east. Rolls in these games can be so brutal, particularly at sea as there are no modifiers you can count on to give you an edge, that me may as well chance it on whether or not the rebels will move out of Tzaritsyn in force. I could run him down the banks of the river, but I don't want him running into whatever is at Tsaritsyn. He's got a ton of supply, so it makes sense to let him wait. I'm not really worried about any Reds coming down on his head just yet. We'll see what evolves. Yeah, rolls in this game are fuckin' brutal, but its largely the way it worked in real life too - one tiny mistake and thousands of men will die. And technically, we're the rebels  .
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Apr 11, 2015 18:05
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A White Guy posted:
A White Guy posted:That's actually a unit sitting in Murmansk, which gets it own little box (Arkhangelsk is on the regular map in the far Northeastern corner) . Right now its composed of inactive British expeditionary forces and locked French garrison. I'll show this off when Miller (the Northern White Army leader) shows up, but that won't be for a while. Edit: 
Xander77 fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Apr 11, 2015 |
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Apr 11, 2015 18:16
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Does that crazy bastard Roman von Ungern-Sternberg show up in this game?
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Apr 11, 2015 23:01
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Xander77 posted:And those are considered to be our forces? Huh. Are we going to pick up a whole bunch of forces to the West come 1920? No. Poles are controlled by the Siberian Whites.
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Apr 11, 2015 23:19
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Megadyptes posted:Does that crazy bastard Roman von Ungern-Sternberg show up in this game? He fought in Mongolia, and the map doesn't extend that far. Which, as I said earlier, is a pity, because the White Russians were the dominant political force in Far Eastern regions like the Chinese Turkestan and Manchuria well into the 1930s.
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Apr 12, 2015 01:36
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Xander77 posted:And those are considered to be our forces? Huh. Are we going to pick up a whole bunch of forces to the West come 1920? Yes, they're techinally our units(we even pay for replacements for hits they take). Allied involvement in the Russian Civil War was quite significant, but horrendously ineffective. We're quite a ways off from significant intervention of Allied Forces, but we're going to see a lot come Spring 1919. Megadyptes posted:Does that crazy bastard Roman von Ungern-Sternberg show up in this game? Sadly no.The Siberian Whites get control of a few Chinese units during the game (along the Siberian railway), but none in Mongolia.
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Apr 12, 2015 07:27
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Tevery Best posted:No. Poles are controlled by the Siberian Whites. steinrokkan posted:Which, as I said earlier, is a pity, because the White Russians were the dominant political force in Far Eastern regions like the Chinese Turkestan and Manchuria well into the 1930s. 
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Apr 12, 2015 08:11
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Xander77 posted:Huh. I wanted to launch a bit of a lecture on "why the Whites lost" but... that's just stupid. Actually, it's not. For one, it helps avoid the unhistorical result of Poles assisting Denikin. For the other, it helps avoid a situation where Polish and White Russian forces mysteriously manage to be perfectly coordinated so as to avoid one another and slam into the Reds at perfect moments, since the Poles are, well, not likely to meet up with the Siberians until after the conflict is pretty much done.
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Apr 12, 2015 10:22
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Tevery Best posted:Actually, it's not. For one, it helps avoid the unhistorical result of Poles assisting Denikin. For the other, it helps avoid a situation where Polish and White Russian forces mysteriously manage to be perfectly coordinated so as to avoid one another and slam into the Reds at perfect moments, since the Poles are, well, not likely to meet up with the Siberians until after the conflict is pretty much done. I should probably state that there are special activation rules for the Polish armies to come into play with the Siberians. The Poles will only intervene if the Southern Whites are getting their asses beat like a red-headed step child(I'm not sure on the particulars, but I think if the SWs drop below 40 NM), so that the Poles serve more of a gameplay balance function than if anything. Secondly, the Poles have the unique position of an immediate loving supply crisis since there are no depots in the entirety of Poland, so the Siberian White player has to devote resources to building supply wagons to build depots with. Finally, the Polish Troops have the unique modifier of "Polish" meaning that they have regional restrictions like Cossack troops - I believe the Poles are limited to Belarus and the Ukraine. Essentially, they're meant to serve as a counter-balance to an overly successful Red Army so that the Siberian Player doesn't end up getting run over.
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Apr 12, 2015 10:40
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 1. The Replay Player which shows how all of our forces moves and what battles were fought. Uploaded just for you nerds: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgXI7NwkP7A 2. Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4V2jlhWJD4  Last turn, we made our first moves. Remember, each turn last 15 days, so 2 turns = 1 month. So, in 15 days, a few things have happened. First, the events:  The Siberian Whites get a whole host of new units on the Volga, with the revolt of the Komuch. Komuch units are like Siberian Cossacks - they're most effective along the Volga, but cease to be so the further east or west they go. This new revolt, plus several other events ( Molchanov's Brigade and the S-R insurrection) give the Siberian Whites a lot more manpower to play with in their war with Reds. Some other major events have happened:  The Imperial Gold Train, with all the reserves of the former Russian government, gets stuck in Kazan. Whomever can grab and hold Kazan for a few turns is going to get a whole load of money to jumpstart their warmachine. Right now, Kazan is controlled by the Reds, but if the Siberian Whites are ballsy, they could grab it. We don't have a shot at this unfortunately.  Green rebels rise up in Eastern Kazakhstan. Eastern Kazakhstan is a very difficult box to reinforce because no rail lines go to it - there's a strong chance that the Greens might secure this area. In the South, we kick off our first turn with aggressive moves:  While technically a draw (the battle lasted only 1 round), Denikin and his forces inflict a serious defeat upon the halfway decent (4-1-2) Sorokin, destroying several elements of his enemies army. How did the meeting of these two evenly matched (at least in manpower) armies have such a lopsided result? Combat:  A round of combat is roughly an hour. Each combat phase lasts 6 rounds until the other side makes an attempt to retreat, which commanders will randomly have a chance to do if they believe they are losing (some commanders have traits where they're balls-in until the fighting is over, others have traits that make it easier for them to retreat). Sorokin, being a strategic 4 and a defensive 2 general, had a strong chance to retreat after 1 round of combat. I should probably note here that if the cohesion of either army remains intact/they still have enough units to fight and the commander doesn't retreat, combat can go on a theoretical 90 rounds (3 and 3/4ths days). The longest I've ever seen it go on was two solid days (and that was between positively enormous armies and corps). In this hour, each side advances upon the other until one side opens fire. In this initial firing, the side with the highest intiative fires first - most of our units, being vastly better than Red miltia units and commanded by generals that give them intiative bonuses, got to fire first at a longer range than the Red units. Every time an infantry/cavarly unit fires and scores a hit, it inflicts one hit (a hit is a rough way to estimate the health of a unit - some units have higher hit counters than others), artillery score two (which is why having lotsa guns is important), and siege artillery or large warships score 3. Secondly, a hit also hurts a random amount of cohesion - 5-15 units of cohesion are lost for every hit. Sorokin's army took 134 hits and only inflicted 34 on us - meaning his army is seriously depleted of both manpower and cohesion. I should state that there are a whole variety of factors that influence chance to hit and who fires first (things like being supply, the weather, being dug in or not etc etc.) Once the combat range has decreased to zero (ie the throats are right on top of each other), units initiate the assault part of the round (provided they're at zero firing range - which may not happen for several rounds). There, units with higher Assault Values will inflict hits (and take hits) from units with lower assault values. Our infantry, being vastly better than their infantry, got wrecked in the assault phase, when an entire regiment of conscripts was finished off in fierce mano-a-mano fighting. I should note that if combat range decreases to zero and the oppossing sides don't retreat, it remains at zero - if cavalry manages to get itself on top of an infantry unit, it will spend several rounds slaughtering that unit until their commander decides its time to run for it. There's also an assault value associated with Machine Guns and Cavalry Charges - a whole host of values influence whether or not enemy units can call in machine guns to stop a cavalry charge - should they fail to do so, cavalry will get a 150% increase to their assault value, but if the enemy manages to do so, it gets a 150% increase to its assault value. Better units have an higher chance of doing this - ergo, cavarly will have a much easier time stomping militia than they will elite Red Guards units. In this round, our cavalry was far more effective in the intial ranged phase - the little green indicators under the 1st Cavalry Division's icon indicate that its leader did an outstanding job. Lastly, there's the command factors. Sorokin's army was led solely by Sorokin himself, meaning many of the Red units were basically functioning as a disorganized mob. Secondly, a majority of the Red Units failed their morale checks - meaning their fire values and their assault values dropped accordingly. The last thing I noticed is that a number of the Red units are 'exhausted' meaning they have low cohesion - this is probably the result of the intial fire phase wherein we absolutely devasted the Red units. Because of the combination of failed morale checks, bad leadership, exhaustion,and an overall crappy composition, the majority of the Red units had a low chance to hit during the round, so the resulting battle was basically a shitcanning. Finally, when Sorokins army retreated, it suffered an additional 5 hits. The only real tragedy was that I didn't get any national morale for such a defeat.  But that wasn't the only battle this turn:  Mamontov encounter Sorokins depleted army as it retreats northward and inflicts an indecisive defeat upon him, destroying some weakened miltia units and driving him off. All this battle really caused to happen was that Mamontov suffered some cohesion hits, meaning he won't be much use to Denikin next turn. This battle also nets us 0 NM  .Speaking of the 4-star General,  Denikin's army, despite being exhausted from one battle in the turn, absolutely obliterates the craptastic 3-0-0 KI Kalnin's (no, not that Kalinin) army, netting us 1k prisoners, 100 crates of supply and 100 crates of ammo. This thorough demolishing also gives us 2 NM. The unfortunate problem is that now Denikins army is thoroughly exhausted - wrecking Red armies can make you pretty tired. The situation in the Kuban stands as thus:  The 1st Division, which I sent to recon Ekaterinodar fails to do so - because it's forced to evade combat with a 400 pwr red stack! I have no idea what this stack may try to do - it could go south, it could try to attack Azov, or it could stay put. The fact that it has no commander is important - in combat with any of our divisions, we would be able to inflict a defeat upon it, provided of course, we can engage it favorably. Denikin's army - exhausted from two battles, needs a rest, and I'm inclined to let it sit to regain its strength. Further south, at Grozny,  Kutepov inflicts an effortless defeat upon the defenders of Grozny and captures the level 4 depot, taking 600 prisoners in the process, leaving Kutepov with a strong army and the intiative.  Kutepov could make an assault upon Vladikavkaz, or he could link with the defenders of Petrovsk-Port. Either way, I'll need to establish MC between Petrovsk and Grozny so that those units can get into supply. I guess I'd better explain Supply and MC now: Military Control  Military Control is the fraction representative of who military dominates a map region. MC is important for vision, retreat paths, supply paths, a whole host of other functions. Military Control is established by sufficiently sized units passing through that area - The longer a unit is on a map region, the more MC for your faction that province will gain. Secondly, the larger it is, the quicker it will gain it.Denikin's army, being 16k men establishes MC inside of a day, while a small cavalry division will only install about a 1/3rd MC inside of a day. Forces need to be in offensive posture to gain MC, and additionally have to be larger than whatever force they're contesting MC with - if Denikin's army is sitting the same province as a Red army that's exactly its same size, regardless of the Red Army's posture, MC will remain unchanged. Moving in unfriendly turf costs more cohesion points, effects your ability to detect enemy units, effects the ability of your corps to march to battles their army is in, and a variety of other things. Basically, more MC good, less MC bad. A few things of note: 1. Forces that enter into hostile territory (aka a province with less than 6% MC) automatically assume an offensive posture (except for cavarly, partisans or supply wagons) 2. Forces attempting to cross a river into hostile territory into a province with less than 10% MC assume an offensive posture. 3. Forces cannot retreat to provinces with less than 6% MC. 4. You can control a structure, but not control the Province. 5. The Reds control the vast majority of the country. We start off with very little MC in our regions, as illustrated by a handy-dandy mapmode:  In this case, Kutepov or whatever forces at at Petrovsk, will need to move to the province in between them (Khasavyurt) to establish MC, so that supply can flow between them. Supply: There are two types of supply. 1. General Supply: Shoes, clothes, food, the stuff that an army needs to run on. 2. Munitions: The stuff that goes out those fancy tubes things. Armies rarely run out of this stuff but it can happen if your army is constantly fighting but unable to get supplied. How's it made? 1. Cities: Various size cities generate various amounts of supply. Level 1 cities produce ten supply a turn, roughly enough to feed 2 Partisan units, or one militia regiment. Level 10 cities (Moscow and St.Petersburg being the only two of these) produce 800 supply, enough to feed Denikin's army several times over per turn (which is fairly small in game terms). 2. Depots: Depots are how we're going to feed our armies. A level 4 depot by itself produces as much as Moscow- obviously, the larger depots we have, the better. 3. Allied shipping - Our depots in Azov recieve a varied amount of Allied supply per turn. Supply can be 'pushed' three map regions before it stops moving, at which point another depot needs to be established in order to move supply. RUS comes with a helpful map mode for visualizing this process.  Supply at Novocherkask is pushed to Azov, where its further pushed to Denikin's force at Tikhoretsk. It's also to important to remember that units can haul around their own supply - Denikin's force comes with a large stack of supply wagons that allow it to operate off the supply network for a (long) time. Secondly, units also have their own internal store of supply. The 1st Division, hanging out with the reds on the far left of the picture, have an internal store of 12 supply, of which it will use 4, this turn. Meaning, I will have to get it into a province that is in supply in the next three turns. The little things over Ekaterinodar and Novocherkassk are what the city produces. In Ekaterinodar's case, it produces 3 Victory Points and 4 conscript companies (manpower) per turn. The bottom part of the wheel is war supply, the top part is money, the right part is manpower, the left part is Victory points. Being out supply is a really, really, really bad thing. Forces will basically evaporate if they're out of supply for any significant amount of time. Remember, supply can only be 'pushed' through provinces where we have more than 26% of MC - if any force interdicts our supply lines by taking over MC, than we'll be out of supply. North of our main forces at Tsaritsyn, we meet a familiar face  The man of Steel himself shows himself on Kalach-na-Don. I have no idea about his strength, only that he exists, nor do I have any idea of the defences of Tsaritsyn. The cavarly force located on the railroad has two choices - I can use him to scout Tsaritsyn's defences, or I can blow up the railway and prevent the Reds from sending reinforcements south. I'll leave that up to you. Forces at Mikhailovka remain stuck for the moment. The Generals prerogative :  Poliakov's force at Salsk didn't see any combat last turn, so I'm going to use him to establish MC near Ekaterinodar next turn. Denikin and Mamontov will recuperate for the moment while we wait to see what the Reds will do. The 1st Division will continue their original scouting mission to their South. In the North,  Udovenko's division will blow the railroad and cross the Volga to scout Tsaritsyn from across the river. If we're lucky Stalin will move back in Tsaritsyn allowing me to get a good look at what his force is composed of. In the South,  Kutepov and the 3rd division will lay siege to Vladivkavkaz, which produces two conscript units per turn. Units at Petrovsk-Port will move one map province to their west to establish MC between themselves and Grozny for supply. This is what I'd do. God knows what Goons are gonna do. In order to put power in the hands of Because of LPix's image requirements ( 1920* 1080 is too big for it without making it look like borscht), I'm putting these on imgur  . Good luck my good Goon Generals, and Godspeed.http://imgur.com/OqD89iu http://imgur.com/qY9jrFL http://imgur.com/fqNRcnx http://imgur.com/b2mMbWV http://imgur.com/INmd7cX So far, The Sandman has posted an alternate plan. 
A Festivus Miracle fucked around with this message at 23:28 on Apr 14, 2015 |
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Apr 14, 2015 09:31
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I believe that blowing up the railroad in the North is vitally important and that should be Udovenko's primary goal, scouting what Stalin has could also be useful, but what other things could that force realistically accomplish there? I also agree that Kutepov and the 3rd division should lay seige to Vladivkavkaz. As far as I can tell from the Map he does not have a lot of opposition there and developing a strong base territory would be useful. It also makes sense for the Petrovsk-port forces to move to establish the MC connection. I should say that I have no experience with this game, so I'm not gonna bother suggesting things for the more complicated portion of the war that our main forces are in.
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Apr 14, 2015 17:27
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Alright. The following is my proposed battle plan. The North: 1. Have the 2nd Kuban scout Stalin's force more directly, by attacking it. Sending them across the river is just asking for the Reds to move those naval units they have there into the Volga and prevent them from returning to the fight. Further, I feel a strange sense that letting Stalin move into that particular city is just asking for trouble. Use whatever offensive setting is most likely to a) preserve our cavalry and b) kill Stalin, with that order of priority. 2. Have Fitskhelaurov Force move east from Mikhailovka. Their destination is Tzaritsyn, by way of the railroad to its north (which it should destroy behind it). We need that city, and we need to deny it to the Reds; the sooner we move on it, the less likely that they can fortify it. Their supply wagons should suffice to keep them in vodka and bullets until they can take the city and its depot. The Center: 1. Il nous faut de l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace! We cannot win this war by waiting, and I have reason to suspect the Reds have given us an opportunity. Push the Volunteer Army to Ekaterinodar, and take it. If possible, continue onward to Novorossiysk and take it as well. 2. Put Mamontov in charge of Poliakov Force and have it attack Kalnin. Limited offensive only; we don't need to destroy him, just keep him pinned in place. 3. Move the former Mamontov Force to establish MC in Korenovsk. 4. 1st Division is to delay that Red force sharing its province, by whatever means is least likely to result in 1st Division's destruction. Given the lack of other places for a unit of that strength to appear from, I'm almost certain that it contains the forces that would otherwise have been defending Ekaterinodar and Novorossiysk; if we can keep it in the marshes just a bit longer, we stand a good chance of cutting supply to both Red armies in this region. The South: 1. Kutepov' Column and the Petrovsk-Port Group to move as the General suggested. 2. White Detachment will move to and occupy Piatigorsk.
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Apr 14, 2015 18:04
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BTW, there is an 'evade combat' order that gives troops a higher chance to evade combat if they're lead by a general (which is what I've had our independent Cavalry divisions operating on, they're awfully squishy). Additionally, there's a 'force march order' that has a chance to make your force move faster. The penalty is that your force will suffer more cohesion hits per province moved, and it's chance based - units with better generals have a higher chance of succeeding in a forced march. Also, I should probably state that railroad movement takes only 1 day - right now we control a tiny portion of railroad so I'm just going to assume what you want to use railroad movement for moving in friendly provinces. The Sandman posted:Alright. The following is my proposed battle plan. I'm going to term this rather aggressive plan 'Sandman' one. Keep 'em coming goons, I love this line of thinking  . My only proposed amendment to this is that our units can only move for 15 days at a time - the force at Mikhailovka would take two turns to reach Tsaritsyn if I moved it at the end of this turn, on the 15th day of the 2nd turn, while simultaneously being really exhausted from marching for a solid month, at which point it would have to attack into a fortified city of unknown strength - perhaps this isn't what you're trying to do, considering we don't have any idea what Stalin's forces are composed of? Additionally, I don't think the White detachment at Petrovsk Port can reach Piatigorsk in one turn - it would be able to reach it at the end of the next turn,however. Pash posted:I believe that blowing up the railroad in the North is vitally important and that should be Udovenko's primary goal, scouting what Stalin has could also be useful, but what other things could that force realistically accomplish there? Udovenko's force can't really do anything by itself - its a tiny Cavalry force, so its use is in harassing railroads and gathering intelligence. Also, don't let a lack of experience stop you from making insane battle plans . If you're unsure of anything, or your plan is especially nutty, I'll be happy to answer your questions.
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Apr 14, 2015 20:18
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White Guy, I'm happy to let you decide the strategic plans. I don't know enough of the game to make good choices, but it looks really interesting!
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Apr 14, 2015 20:21
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A White Guy posted:I'm going to term this rather aggressive plan 'Sandman' one. Keep 'em coming goons, I love this line of thinking For the second, I meant for the regiments in Grozny to seize Piatigorsk while the ones in Petrovsk-Port took control of the rail line between Petrovsk-Port and Grozny. If that isn't a viable move, then have the regiments in Grozny take that rail line while the ones in Petrovsk-Port take Derbent. quote:Also, don't let a lack of experience stop you from making insane battle plans
The Sandman fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Apr 14, 2015 |
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Apr 14, 2015 21:10
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Where's the tsar at? Shouldn't we try and rescue him? Otherwise we're monarchists without a monarch.
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Apr 15, 2015 02:49
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sullat posted:Where's the tsar at? Shouldn't we try and rescue him? Otherwise we're monarchists without a monarch. Correction: We're the autocrats - a monarch is a nice thing but we're okay with a fake democracy too. The Royal family is being held in Ekaterinburg , far to the north of the Southern Whites. It falls on the Siberian Whites to attempt a rescue
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Apr 15, 2015 07:03
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The Sandman posted:For the first amendment, let them rest outside Tsaritsyn for one turn to regain strength, unless the city is sufficiently poorly defended (or undefended) that it can be taken immediately. If the city is reinforced to the point that even with rest it couldn't be taken, march around it (destroying railways as they go) and then have the force from Mikhailovka take up whatever positions would allow it the swiftest advance into the Ukraine once the Germans withdraw. I think attempting to take Tsaritsyn right now is a bad idea, we have no scouting reports on it and we likely do not have enough forces. I would recommend that the unit south of it blows the rails and moves in to attempt to scout on the evasion setting. I think A White Guy's plan for the Caucasus is solid, but if Piatigorsk doesn't have a garrison, then I don't see why we shouldn't send some forces to take it, Vladikavkaz will be pressured by the larger stack, so its not like they can sortie forces out from there. Piatigorsk is also on the railway line, so the further out we get along on it the better (especially if it is for free as Piatigorsk lacks troops).
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Apr 15, 2015 07:53
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AGEOD make the best strategy games, bar none.
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Apr 15, 2015 08:00
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corn in the bible posted:AGEOD make the best strategy games, bar none. That is a huge claim, what is your data? AGEOD is widely known in the Grognard thread as being a terrible engine.
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Apr 15, 2015 09:13
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Lord Windy posted:That is a huge claim, what is your data? AGEOD is widely known in the Grognard thread as being a terrible engine. It doesn't simulate the amount of shits a general takes in a day! Awful engine, never play an AGEOD game, take it from me.  AGEOD games aren't meant to be Grognard games, they're meant to be accessible but still have all the elements of a big board strategy game. You can't compare AGEOD games to Grognard games because that's comparing apples to oranges. A Festivus Miracle fucked around with this message at 11:11 on Apr 15, 2015 |
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Apr 15, 2015 11:02
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A White Guy posted:It doesn't simulate the amount of shits a general takes in a day! Awful engine, never play an AGEOD game, take it from me. Hey, I know from experience that the interface is as bad as the one in War in the Pacific. I own several of their earlier titles and I never got far because I just couldn't parse what was on screen. They occupy the same space, grognards all started as board games themselves and AGEOD games are at least as complicated as lot of different grognards. If you look at the detailed combat section with the generals there are a million different numbers, on the tool bar there 8 different buttons that take you to other screens that look equally as impenetrable. By every step of the way, I'd call it comparing apples to apples. AGEOD games are grognards. Might not be as complicated as WitP, but it certainly wouldn't be what I can accessible. I was just saying that it's hard to say they make the best games, when they are in a field where there are heaps of contenders. Strategic Command: WW1 has an excellent Russian Civil War map for example. To End all Wars looks good and I think I'll be getting it on the weekend.
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Apr 15, 2015 12:07
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Lord Windy posted:That is a huge claim, what is your data? AGEOD is widely known in the Grognard thread as being a terrible engine. Pride of Nations is an unplayable mess, but that's because it falls into the grognard game design pitfall of making a game whose scope is completely outside what the engine's "sweet spot" is (see also: War in the West, many TOAW scenarios, Close Combat Cross of Iron, Jutland in the Strategic Command system) AGEOD does some things well, and it does it well when it sticks to operational-level, pre-mechanized-warfare campaigns. It didn't do so well after they bolted Victoria onto it. I played quite a bit of the AGEOD ACW game, and I could definitely see the gem underneath all the carbon: the importance of supply, the importance of determining your schwerpunkt, and the importance of organizing your OOB and command structure. I ultimately didn't get very far because the interface is a total bear and is a huge impediment to enjoying the game, but that's not a huge shocker among grognard games. I agree that it's a bit of a stretch to say that AGEOD games are the "best", but they're also not "terrible". Ultimately I think a lot of the flak AGEOD receives comes from Pride of Nations. If it weren't for that it'd probably be regarded much better as a sort of "it's good, if you can get over the UI" kind of game, with a nod towards covering some very esoteric topics.
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Apr 15, 2015 12:15
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A White Guy posted:Correction: We're the autocrats - a monarch is a nice thing but we're okay with a fake democracy too. Or a military junta, which is pretty much what the Whites ended up with. I would also like to propose a slightly altered plan. Denikin and Mamotov should hold their positions and the 1st division keeps on scoutin'. However, Poliakov should move to Kurganinsk (i.e. south of Denikin&co) to establish MC. This is mainly to make sure whether there are any unexpected reds lurking down south or not, and also to prepare for a possible future envelopment of Ekaterinodar from the south. Other than that, the General's plan seems fine.
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Apr 15, 2015 13:00
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A White Guy posted:It doesn't simulate the amount of shits a general takes in a day! Awful engine, never play an AGEOD game, take it from me. Their games are conceptually good, but with the worst interface I've ever seen, and generally terribly optimized.
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Apr 15, 2015 13:35
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Well... I like them.
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Apr 15, 2015 14:19
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steinrokkan posted:Their games are conceptually good, but with the worst interface I've ever seen, and generally terribly optimized. Yeah, I suppose this is something I'd agree with. AGEOD games and especially Pride of Nations have awful UI. I honestly only really got into AGEOD games via the AGEOD AAR portal over at Paradox Plaza and some really thorough AARs that explained most of the concepts of AGEOD. The good news is that if you've played Rise of Prussia than you can basically figure out most PoN games because they use most of the same basic rules. The bad news is you have to figure out to play at least one of them first before the rest become apparent to you .
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Apr 15, 2015 16:05
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What are our short/long term strategic objectives? What are we trying to do atm, and in general? ... Honestly, while I appreciate the temptation to go "the Whites could have won if only..." I never felt as though that "if only" consisted of managing their tactics and strategy better. More like "if only they fundamentally shifted their ideological basis, political aims and diplomatic goals". 
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Apr 15, 2015 16:13
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Xander77 posted:What are our short/long term strategic objectives? What are we trying to do atm, and in general? Kill Communists and restore the ancien regime of course! I suppose that right now what we have to do is control the immediate area and get a coherent hinterland going, because right now the entire area is a mess of Soviet garrisons. It seems to me that the Caucasus is the most logical place to do this, with the top-end being what is now the bottle-neck at Tsaritsyn. The benefit in this, I think, is that the Soviet axis of communication/supply/transportation is based around Moscow and the railways, so it shouldn't require a massive effort to mop-up this part. Look at how easily Grozny fell. I also feel like we should do our best to be prepared for the inevitable collapse of German occupation forces in Ukraine, which will result in a clusterfuck. Seems to me like it will be a threat to our shipping routes, but also an opportunity if we can sweep in and lock down things before the Ukrainian themselves get their issues in order. Can we eventually
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Apr 15, 2015 16:52
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Xander77 posted:What are our short/long term strategic objectives? What are we trying to do atm, and in general? At the moment we're trying to grab as much territory as possible while the Reds scramble to build their forces - right now, this means grabbing Novorossisyik and Ekaterinodar is paramount but eventually securing all the Kuban is important. We've already captured Grozny, now we just need to secure the big cities and wait for winter time to come. In the medium term, securing Tsaritsyn is also important - I like to think of it as the third leg on the communist stool, composed of Moscow, St.Petersburg, and Tsaritsyn. The ultimate gameplan is to grab as many regions we can defend so as to build up a strong White army to eventually take Moscow with or even St.Petersburg with. This may, or may not involve the invasion of the Ukraine when the Germans withdraw later this year. Xander77 posted:Honestly, while I appreciate the temptation to go "the Whites could have won if only..." I never felt as though that "if only" consisted of managing their tactics and strategy better. More like "if only they fundamentally shifted their ideological basis, political aims and diplomatic goals". The Southern Whites had a very good chance to capture Moscow during 1919, but the involvement of a ~mystery faction~ that was far too competent for its own good put an end to the Southern White's hope. That in addition to crippling kleptocracy and a hearts and minds approach that basically consisted of outright banditry, conscription, and thievery - all things we get to see next update. As for the Siberians, well. They never really had a chance - the political structure that ran the White Forces in Siberia was so ineffective that it never really got off the ground to begin with.
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Apr 15, 2015 17:00
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Xander77 posted:Honestly, while I appreciate the temptation to go "the Whites could have won if only..." I never felt as though that "if only" consisted of managing their tactics and strategy better. More like "if only they fundamentally shifted their ideological basis, political aims and diplomatic goals". The White forces were probably doomed from the get-go, partly as you note due to not having a clue politically, but mostly because the industrial heartland of Russia was pretty firmly in the hands of the Bolsheviks and stayed that way throughout the war. A White Guy posted:The Southern Whites had a very good chance to capture Moscow during 1919, but the involvement of a ~mystery faction~ that was far too competent for its own good put an end to the Southern White's hope. That in addition to crippling kleptocracy and a hearts and minds approach that basically consisted of outright banditry, conscription, and thievery - all things we get to see next update. Eh, I wouldn't go so far as to call it a good chance. The southern White forces had simply stretched their lines of supply far too much in late 1919, and the ~mystery faction~ was less of an issue than the fact that the Whites had too poor logistics to sustain their advance.
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Apr 15, 2015 19:40
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It's been a few years since I played RUS. Definitely bookmarking this.
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Apr 16, 2015 04:12
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Cerebral Bore posted:The White forces were probably doomed from the get-go, partly as you note due to not having a clue politically, but mostly because the industrial heartland of Russia was pretty firmly in the hands of the Bolsheviks and stayed that way throughout the war. I would say that the Southern Whites did fairly well, all things considered. In the aftermath of WW1, the industrial output of the former Russian Empire fell like a stone - and the wartime policies out the Communist government did very little to help remedy that - we're going to get a taste of those war time policies as things progress. I would say that the Whites, even though they were just as brutal as their opponents, were nowhere near as clever with their oppression and ideological fervor - the Communists and especially the Cheka did things during the Russian Civil War that would've made Hitler himself blush (and served very much as a model for what Stalin would do twenty years later). The one big thing I'd say that the Communists had in their favor is that their political structure was by and large divorced from their military one - The CP, and Lenin himself, realized as the defeats mounted that most of them had very little idea of how to fight a war, and very much an idea of how to manage one - so the CP stepped back from the active tactics of the war and left it in the very capable hands of staff officers like Tuchavesky, Budyonny(well, before Warsaw anyway), Trotsky, Frunze and the like.That's not to say they didn't have an iron grip on the army - they simply realized however, that their political control would need to loosen in the tactical arena. That being said, most of the Red officers were basically up-jumped soldiers who happened to be popular members of their regiments who had been voted into their positions - the Reds realized too, that as the war went on, there's a reason why military systems are regimented . That the Red Army got to experience the disastrous results of such experimentation and still survive is more of a testament to the sheer political will of the CP than it is to the ability of the Red Army to absorb losses. dublish posted:It's been a few years since I played RUS. Definitely bookmarking this. Thank you. RUS is definitely my favorite AGEOD game (RoP being a close second). A Festivus Miracle fucked around with this message at 10:35 on Apr 16, 2015 |
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Apr 16, 2015 09:15
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steinrokkan posted:He fought in Mongolia, and the map doesn't extend that far. Which, as I said earlier, is a pity, because the White Russians were the dominant political force in Far Eastern regions like the Chinese Turkestan and Manchuria well into the 1930s. Isn't this included though? At least the area of what is now Ulan Batoor ("Red Hero") is. I'm not well versed with Far East geography so I always find it hard putting together all the separate map boxes. Tevery Best posted:Actually, it's not. For one, it helps avoid the unhistorical result of Poles assisting Denikin. For the other, it helps avoid a situation where Polish and White Russian forces mysteriously manage to be perfectly coordinated so as to avoid one another and slam into the Reds at perfect moments, since the Poles are, well, not likely to meet up with the Siberians until after the conflict is pretty much done. Enginewise there's nothing preventing the Poles from being their own faction & player, though it might be just a tad confusing if you started the game as Poland and then had nothing else to do than press end turn for a couple of years.
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Apr 16, 2015 19:37
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A White Guy posted:I would say that the Southern Whites did fairly well, all things considered. In the aftermath of WW1, the industrial output of the former Russian Empire fell like a stone - and the wartime policies out the Communist government did very little to help remedy that - we're going to get a taste of those war time policies as things progress. Sure, the Whites did do better than what could be expected, but that doesn't translate to them having a realistic shot at winning. For comparison, Japan did far better than what one could realistically expect at the start of WW2, but they still were completely doomed from the get-go. A White Guy posted:I would say that the Whites, even though they were just as brutal as their opponents, were nowhere near as clever with their oppression and ideological fervor - the Communists and especially the Cheka did things during the Russian Civil War that would've made Hitler himself blush (and served very much as a model for what Stalin would do twenty years later). The one big thing I'd say that the Communists had in their favor is that their political structure was by and large divorced from their military one - The CP, and Lenin himself, realized as the defeats mounted that most of them had very little idea of how to fight a war, and very much an idea of how to manage one - so the CP stepped back from the active tactics of the war and left it in the very capable hands of staff officers like Tuchavesky, Budyonny(well, before Warsaw anyway), Trotsky, Frunze and the like.That's not to say they didn't have an iron grip on the army - they simply realized however, that their political control would need to loosen in the tactical arena. This is very true. In a total war, your political organization is at least as important as your military one.
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Apr 16, 2015 20:18
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Oh crap, I forgot to update yesterday. GTA V finally finished downloading so I spent all day murdering pixels. New update will definitely up today, not a lot really happened so don't get all excited.
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Apr 17, 2015 20:44
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Reading this LP got me to boot up PoN, then promptly uninstall it again, what a clusterfuck. I did throw down  on Rise of Prussia Gold, and I have been really enjoying learning how to play. I was looking for RUS, but its not on steam  , I don't think I can bring myself to pay Matrix or Slitherine directly ever again. I realize it just went off sale, but how is Civil War II?
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Apr 17, 2015 21:01
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