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Enophos posted:While this was not directed at me, I would say that Josephus was clearly beholden to his Roman masters and his description of the (First) Jewish War and Jewish history have to be understood in the context that he was trying to make the Emperor Vespasian and Rome as a whole look good for his patronage and livelihood. If you take note of this and read him critically, I believe he is a reliable source. Fair enough, I just like asking people who claim some sort of knowledge about biblical times what they think about Josephus. He's just the right mix of well known to historians and obscure to everybody else. For all of Josephus's faults, he was one of the few people who bothered to write about the politics of Israel circa 30 A.D.
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May 14, 2015 18:48
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thrakkorzog posted:As a fellow history buff, what is your opinion on Josephus's description of the Jewish War? I will admit that I haven't read Josephus (yet). Most of the primary sources which I've read are 1800s+, with some exceptions. Basebf555 posted:Is it only Jews who eat chopped liver? I've never seen it anywhere else except my family functions, and even then nobody eats it. I think my grandmother makes it out of tradition. It's probably a food from Eastern Europe. A lot of Ashkenazi Jewish foods come from Eastern European culture. An acquaintance of mine who visited the Czech Republic surprised her host family by baking challah; they'd been eating the stuff for ages as "Christmas bread." I have no idea why Jews still eat stuff like chopped liver in the States, but I'm guessing it is about tradition. The only time we break it out in my family is around Passover.
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May 14, 2015 19:22
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I grew up as a semi-religious reformed Jew in America, but I've been dating a Persian orthodox girl for the past five months or so. One thing that has been made pretty clear so data is that So, so much of the food and dress culture, in addition to some rules, that people think of as standard Judaism is actually just the Eastern European Ashkenazi tradition. Everyone wears yarmulkes though, even the Chinese Jews did.
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May 15, 2015 00:38
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Last Buffalo posted:I grew up as a semi-religious reformed Jew in America, but I've been dating a Persian orthodox girl for the past five months or so. One thing that has been made pretty clear so data is that So, so much of the food and dress culture, in addition to some rules, that people think of as standard Judaism is actually just the Eastern European Ashkenazi tradition. Very, VERY much so. I know in the US, the wave of Jewish immigration from Eastern Europe which occurred at the turn of the century overwhelmed the previous populations, and I believe other American communities are Ashkenazi as well. Most of the Mizrachi and Sephardi communities moved straight to Israel and so are less spread out.In addition, the cultural movements spawned by the German Jewry (Reform Judaism and Zionism to some extent) massively changed Judaism. And, well, Ashkenazi Jews are European with white skin. They certainly benefited from that status during the 1800s, and that carries into the modern day.
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May 15, 2015 01:21
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I don't think Sephardim ever suffered discrimination from other Jews in America. If anything it was the other way around. From what I know, the first communities in America were Sephardim. A lot of them came to America and Israel after the 1960s when most of the Muslim world's Jewish communists were no longer welcome.
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May 15, 2015 01:27
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salisbury shake posted:If there's one thing that makes you say "that's SO jewish" what would it be? For me (I have more than one), it's when I see my dick, weird fish sandwiches or all the unintentionally jewish things my family says when they open their mouths The saying "Two Jews, Three Opinions." Judaism (as exemplified by Abraham, Moses, and many others) encourages questioning G-D, so the idea of questioning nearly everything and forming unique opinions is a cornerstone of Jewish tradition. Enophos fucked around with this message at 07:16 on May 16, 2015 |
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May 16, 2015 06:10
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Basebf555 posted:Is it only Jews who eat chopped liver? I've never seen it anywhere else except my family functions, and even then nobody eats it. I think my grandmother makes it out of tradition. As was said by "Viola the Mad:" Viola the Mad posted:I will admit that I haven't read Josephus (yet). Most of the primary sources which I've read are 1800s+, with some exceptions. A lot of what is considered "Jewish Tradition" comes from Jewish communities in Germany and Eastern Europe (Ashkenazi). Life in Eastern European added many things to Jewish culture that are historical rather than rooted in the religion or culture. Enophos fucked around with this message at 07:16 on May 16, 2015 |
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May 16, 2015 06:17
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Last Buffalo posted:I grew up as a semi-religious reformed Jew in America, but I've been dating a Persian orthodox girl for the past five months or so. One thing that has been made pretty clear so data is that So, so much of the food and dress culture, in addition to some rules, that people think of as standard Judaism is actually just the Eastern European Ashkenazi tradition. As a Sephardic Jew I agree. Judaism is a Religion and Culture of the "Middle East." Especially in America, the traditions that were started in Europe have become emblematic of Jewish culture as a whole. I have often been told that I do not have a "Jewish Name." However, the stereotypical names like Einstein and Goldberg are just European names - Ashkenazi tradition is a product of Europe. I do not want to belittle these traditions, but they are not only ones that are "Authentically" Jewish. Enophos fucked around with this message at 06:39 on May 16, 2015 |
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May 16, 2015 06:27
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Last Buffalo posted:I don't think Seraphim ever suffered discrimination from other Jews in America. If anything it was the other way around. From what I know, the first communities in America were Sephardim. A lot of them came to America and Israel after the 1960s when most of the Muslim world's Jewish communists were no longer welcome. Sephardic Jews were some of the first settlers in American because they were fleeing persecution from the Spanish Empire (started by the Edict of Expulsion in 1492). However, the waves of immigration by Jews in the late 19th and early 20th century were mainly from Eastern Europe and shifted the cultural origin of American Jews to mostly Ashkenazi. Many Sephardim settled in the Middle East under Suleiman the Magnificent of the Ottoman Empire following the creation of the Spanish Empire in the 15th Century. Sephardic Jews immigrated in droves to Israel and the U.S. in the 1950's-1970's because of persecution throughout the Islamic world following of the creation of a "Jewish State" in 1948 and the resulting wars and political fallout. Enophos fucked around with this message at 07:15 on May 16, 2015 |
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May 16, 2015 06:35
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Anyone who would like an overview of Judaism should read "Essential Judaism: A Complete Guide to Beliefs, Customs & Rituals": "http://www.amazon.com/Essential-Judaism-Complete-Beliefs-Customs/dp/0671034812" This is the best one stop resource I have found on the subject. I have nothing to do with the author and only recommend it following years of reading about the topic. I will preface this that the author follows the Reform tradition so may have an unintentional bias.
Enophos fucked around with this message at 07:32 on May 16, 2015 |
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May 16, 2015 07:28
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It seems that the mainstream Jew culture comes from the European ones. What are your opinions on those who migrated to somewhere else, like that group of Jew who somehow managed to move to the middle of China of all places?
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May 16, 2015 15:59
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"Mainstream" Judaism is still a hodge-podge of different things from different background. Go to a Belorussian Orthodox community and they will have a different variations on the rules than Syrian orthodox or Transylvanian Hasidim. The more religious you get, the more divisive things get about which traditions should be followed which way. Some things, like eating pork or when the sabbath starts are universal. Others, like etiquette for a get or whether a married man should listen to another female sing are more divided. The Sephardic communities were way more traditionally religious that their more agnostic European counterparts during the first half of the 20th century. When they all got chased out of the Middle East, they had a huge effect on changing and increasing how religious Israel was once they arrived.
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May 16, 2015 20:32
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What is the deal with stomping on a glass a Jewish weddings? It seems pretty un-Jewish to break perfectly usable silverware. Also, as a non-Israeli Jew, how do you feel about Israel, specifically its politics, relation to Palestine, etc. I'm not trying to open a can of worms so you can ignore this one if you want.
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May 17, 2015 19:19
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Fellow Reform Jew (if you can even call me that) checking in. What makes the Satmar Ultra-Orthodox sect unique? If you go south of Broadway in Williamsburg, you end up in a big Satmar neighborhood. It's like walking into Bizarro Williamsburg- there's nothing to do, the people are dressed the same, and everything is so dead. At least the Lubavitcher section of Crown Heights is lively, even though it's also creepy in its own way.
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May 20, 2015 01:03
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du -hast posted:What is the deal with stomping on a glass a Jewish weddings? It seems pretty un-Jewish to break perfectly usable silverware. It's to memorialize the destruction of the Temple. However, it occurs at the end of the wedding ceremony, so in practice it's usually accompanied by lots of cheering and the couple grinning like maniacs. At least, that's the case for all the weddings I've been to. More religious Jews will also leave a corner of their house unpainted for the same reasons. I believe that the rabbis state that you should always remember the destruction of the Temple, even at the most joyous of occasions. I don't think that always works out, though.  Regarding Israel, my feelings are mixed. I have a strong attachment (cultural and familial) to the country itself and support the existence of a Jewish state, but I despise Netanyahu and am deeply unhappy with the country's current direction. Diaspora Jews' feelings run the gamut (as do Israelis--my cousins literally cover the entire spectrum) like most people, though our cultural connections can cast those feelings in a different light. I've seen Jews describe themselves as "left on everything but Israel" to Jews who are almost defensively anti-Israel. On a less confusing note, the land of Israel is one of the most gorgeous places I've been to. It's worth visiting for the landscape alone.
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May 20, 2015 06:01
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The best place in the world to live in if you're Jewish is America, if you ask me. We're the most loved religious group here, with almost 70% approval. Yeah, I'm sure a decent amount of that support is from evangelical Christians who think Israel needs to stand strong until the perfectly red calf is born to herald the Rapture, after which all the Jews and other non-believers will be purged to make way for the second coming... but hey, I'll take it. (everything I said in that last sentence is actual evangelical nutjob belief, by the way) Our immigration system is more restrictive, but if you're Jewish and you can get here, take that poo poo. Regarding Israel- I'll just say that the government is total poo poo. What we're seeing there now is the end result of any state that says they speak for a religion. I'll just leave it at that and won't elaborate further because it will devolve into bad things.
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May 22, 2015 05:43
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Y-Hat posted:The best place in the world to live in if you're Jewish is America, if you ask me. We're the most loved religious group here, with almost 70% approval. Agreed that America is the best place for Jews right now, but yea that 70% approval stat is definitely deceptive. As a Jew I get a lot of the more subtle, friendlier, more insidious kind of racism. I've never been openly called a dirty Jew or a kike or anything like that, but you get a lot of people who will have that "I like Jews, so it doesn't matter that I make broad sweeping generalizations about them" attitude. Like you'll hear people say that they are looking for a lawyer, but its gotta be a "Jew lawyer" because Jews are the best lawyers. Or they may say that they really respect Jews because they are so good with money. These are backhanded compliments at best, but most people that say stuff like that aren't self-aware enough to realize the racist ideas that are at the root of them.
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May 22, 2015 15:45
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Yeah, I'd say it's closer to the racism Asian Americans face now (though Asian Americans have always faced more racism in America in most ways). It's the complementing of certain traits, combined with the implication that these traits are from your spooky foreign culture and the side effect of some negative aspects of that culture. This is probably the most concise piece I've read in a while about modern anti-Semitism. A pro-click for sure. http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/03/is-it-time-for-the-jews-to-leave-europe/386279/
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May 22, 2015 16:49
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Enophos posted:Please go ahead, I welcome other viewpoints into Judaism. Do you believe Israel has a right to exist based upon the Jewish-centric belief that it belongs to the Jewish people? Before I get accused of threadshitting, I was raised Reform Jewish, had a bar mitzvah, and looked into the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict once I had the curiosity to do so. After seeing what both sides have done I am of the opinion that Israel's existence is a product of British imperial power driven by modern Zionism and its continued existence depends on the conflict to allow the increasingly hawkish/right-leaning Israeli electorate that votes for hawks - Netenyahu, et al. I'm for a two-state solution and Palestinian right of return, as well as Jewish right of return to Arab countries that expelled Jews in 1946-1948 and thereafter.
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May 22, 2015 16:50
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Y-Hat posted:Fellow Reform Jew (if you can even call me that) checking in. What makes the Satmar Ultra-Orthodox sect unique? If you go south of Broadway in Williamsburg, you end up in a big Satmar neighborhood. It's like walking into Bizarro Williamsburg- there's nothing to do, the people are dressed the same, and everything is so dead. At least the Lubavitcher section of Crown Heights is lively, even though it's also creepy in its own way. This is a super cool thread about this topic if you have archives: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3391326&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1 The OP escaped from there and another member looking for an out joins the thread later (apparently it was one of the top google results for satmar at the time).
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May 22, 2015 17:02
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Do you think there's such a thing as a Jewish race? I know this is a controversial topic.
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May 22, 2015 17:24
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MJP posted:Do you believe Israel has a right to exist based upon the Jewish-centric belief that it belongs to the Jewish people? I don't really disagree with any of your specific points, but I do think its important to point out that a part of the reason Jews in Israel think its rightfully theirs is because of the Holocaust. The formation of Israel was kind of an apology from the world to the Jews for allowing them to be almost wiped out. Having an official Jewish state is supposed to be piece of mind that there will always be a place for Jews to go if their home country decides its due for a good old-fashioned genocide.
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May 22, 2015 18:27
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MJP posted:Do you believe Israel has a right to exist based upon the Jewish-centric belief that it belongs to the Jewish people? This is totally a can of worms, but I hear a lot about Jewish right of return to the Arab world. when criticism of Israel is brought up. This sounds nice, but I think it's completely ignoring why people left and why they don't give a poo poo about going back. Jews living in the muslin world had almost always been living in a state of submission and were tolerated as a minority very infrequently and always with a deal of second-class citizenship. Anti-semitism in the Arab word grew enormously during the 30s and 40s due to the Nazis and exploded after a Jewish state was established. Things now are incredibly hostile, but they were never super welcoming to begin with. All the Sephardim in Israel who came don't want to uproot and become minorities in a society where they're seen as human scum. Now, with Political Islam sweeping the region, there is no real community that Jews could reestablish themselves in. This may sound a bit bigoted, but I think there's a bigger chance for Palestinians winning a better life in the cities of Israel than there is of a Jewish resettlement in Cairo or Baghdad.
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May 22, 2015 18:54
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Noctis Horrendae posted:Do you think there's such a thing as a Jewish race? I know this is a controversial topic. All races are fictitious constructs, it has no actual definable meaning. Now let's watch as the thread inevitable descends into an I/P shitshow.
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May 22, 2015 18:57
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Obdicut posted:All races are fictitious constructs, it has no actual definable meaning. I'm not denying that, just asking the OP's opinion.
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May 22, 2015 20:44
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Obdicut posted:All races are fictitious constructs, it has no actual definable meaning. We could try and have a nice discussion and not make it a poo poo show. Here's an idea: Let's try to keep the conversation about Judaism in terms of the culture, religion and history, and maybe step away from trying to debate whether Palestinians are human or whether the Zionist state should be gassed with sarin or nuked from orbit.
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May 23, 2015 01:40
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Noctis Horrendae posted:Do you think there's such a thing as a Jewish race? I know this is a controversial topic. It's a controversial topic because it was used as an excuse to exterminate us. Race as we understand it is a very fluid topic; for example, the concept of "whiteness" has expanded over time. I'm considered a white person today, but a century ago I would be considered part of the Jewish race, and may well have identified as being part of a separate race. Go back another two centuries, and I probably wouldn't understand the term (or at least how it applied to me). The reason why Ashkenazi Jews used to identify as a race is because literally every other community was doing it at that time. The fallout of the Napoleonic wars and the rise of imperialist powers led to a huge upswing in nationalism and ethnic rivalry during the 1800s, and the Jews were certainly part of that trend. I'm simplifying here, but I hope this gets the gist across. That said, Jews have spent a lot of time and energy developing a Jewish identity that is separate from religious practice or even belief. I'd say the best term to describe us is an ethnic group, though it is simpler to just refer to it as a faith. But Jews do not identify as a separate race because, again, it was used as an excuse to exterminate us. Using the term "Jewish race" is a good way to set off alarm bells in the Jews around you. The people who use it are generally the guys blaming us for loving up their pure culture or whatever.
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May 26, 2015 02:38
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Historical discussions and depictions of medieval and early modern Jewish people seem to focus on the educated urban middle class. Where there many/any Jewish peasant communities outside of the Levant after the diaspora?
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May 26, 2015 12:16
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ZeusJupitar posted:Historical discussions and depictions of medieval and early modern Jewish people seem to focus on the educated urban middle class. Where there many/any Jewish peasant communities outside of the Levant after the diaspora? Yes. Why wouldn't there be?
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May 26, 2015 13:48
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For a majority of European history, Jews in any city or town lived in a ghetto, where they were segregated and lived by practicing niche trades and crafts. There, the distinctions in lifestyle and dress were more distinct.
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May 26, 2015 15:55
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Ethnicity is probably a better word than race? I don't know how you could disagree if you put "ethnicity" there - Jewish identity seems pretty clearly distinct from religious practice to me.
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May 27, 2015 17:59
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Last Buffalo posted:For a majority of European history, Jews in any city or town lived in a ghetto, where they were segregated and lived by practicing niche trades and crafts. Jews (along with other unwanted people) were invited to settle in Lithuania back in the middle ages, I guess as an influx of culture and learning. When Lithuania and Poland got rolled into Russian Empire, the think that happened (I think) was that Jews were either expelled from Russia, forbidden from working land or both. Hence they settled in periphery (say Lithuania), where they started doing businesses like running inns. Most Lithuanians who weren't the Polonized bourgeois resented that, because resenting businessmen is a time honored tradition of those used by businesses. Furthermore, when the "Let's be free, again, for real, and maybe speak Lithuanian" movement started, there was anti-Jewish sentiment from some of the leading folks at the time, notably because with business so notifiably in Jewish hands (who may or may not have wanted to integrate with Lithuanians). Regrettably, that lead to some Lithuanians collaborating with Jerries in WWII. No Lithuanian SS legion, but still some went on to be what we call "žydšaudžiai" ("Jew-shooters", literally). The Nazis basically wiped out Jews in Lithuania. Here's the huge rear end monument near the place I grew up that comemorates the Jews killed (shot) in a repurposed WWI fort:  Uh, I don't know what point I was going to make.
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May 27, 2015 19:55
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:Ethnicity is probably a better word than race? I don't know how you could disagree if you put "ethnicity" there - Jewish identity seems pretty clearly distinct from religious practice to me. I would say that Judaism can be divided into three: the religion, the ethnicity and the culture. They can all be subdivided into more categories. Religion is pretty self explanatory. Cultural Judaism is following the traditions, even without belief in the religion. Ethnic Judaism gets a bit more tricky and is perhaps flawed from a fundamental standpoint, but it would be entirely based on heritage. Still, there are certainly some physical distinctions between Jewish groups (ashkenazim, sepharadim, etc.). I don't know if you would consider this as "races". Changing the subject, I can a little bit about Judaism in Mexico if anybody is interested.
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May 27, 2015 22:02
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Last Buffalo posted:For a majority of European history, Jews in any city or town lived in a ghetto, where they were segregated and lived by practicing niche trades and crafts. Right, I'd gotten the impression that they were deliberately/implicitly confined to the towns and cities (and hence the ghettos) and that there were no/very few Jewish people in the rural areas. 'Middle class' was the wrong term to use. My understanding was that Jews were banned from owning land in many places. I'm not sure if that's true or if it would apply to being an ordinary farmer rather than a feudal land owner. I was taught/picked up the idea that historical Jewish people were overrepresented in the stereotypically 'Jewish' professions like banking and theater and that this was part of an antisemitic feedback loop, where they would be pushed towards certain professions by being denied employment elsewhere and then accused of conspiring to dominate those fields. Now that I think it over through, this could be a just-so story.
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May 27, 2015 22:22
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Jewish people were the only people who were allowed do certain trades, like banking or usery. That's why they were over represented.
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May 27, 2015 23:37
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Basebf555 posted:Agreed that America is the best place for Jews right now, but yea that 70% approval stat is definitely deceptive. As a Jew I get a lot of the more subtle, friendlier, more insidious kind of racism. I've never been openly called a dirty Jew or a kike or anything like that, but you get a lot of people who will have that "I like Jews, so it doesn't matter that I make broad sweeping generalizations about them" attitude. Like you'll hear people say that they are looking for a lawyer, but its gotta be a "Jew lawyer" because Jews are the best lawyers. Or they may say that they really respect Jews because they are so good with money. These are backhanded compliments at best, but most people that say stuff like that aren't self-aware enough to realize the racist ideas that are at the root of them. I'm a Reform Jew, and I agree America is tops for us - but not the rural south (or rural anywhere). Moved from NJ to Eastern Carolina for a job and I hear things in passing like "he/she tried to jew me down on the price" more often than I would like (Dad's side of the family is Irish, so I fly under the radar) as well as "you're the first Jew I've ever met...you seem so normal.." Even some of my family on my dad's side would make comments every now and again about how I'm not a "real Jew," as if the bar mitzvah wasn't enough. Oh, and chopped liver is popular amongst Jews & Goyim in the tri state, or at least the ones I know. My girlfriend down here always makes sure to get chopped liver on rye whenever we go to NJ and hit up a diner, as well as matzah ball soup. My grandmother on my moms side makes turkey stuffing with chicken livers for me every year on Thanksgiving, and I love it.
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May 28, 2015 13:59
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JcDent posted:Jews (along with other unwanted people) were invited to settle in Lithuania back in the middle ages, I guess as an influx of culture and learning. When Lithuania and Poland got rolled into Russian Empire, the think that happened (I think) was that Jews were either expelled from Russia, forbidden from working land or both. Hence they settled in periphery (say Lithuania), where they started doing businesses like running inns. Most Lithuanians who weren't the Polonized bourgeois resented that, because resenting businessmen is a time honored tradition of those used by businesses. Furthermore, when the "Let's be free, again, for real, and maybe speak Lithuanian" movement started, there was anti-Jewish sentiment from some of the leading folks at the time, notably because with business so notifiably in Jewish hands (who may or may not have wanted to integrate with Lithuanians). Regrettably, that lead to some Lithuanians collaborating with Jerries in WWII. No Lithuanian SS legion, but still some went on to be what we call "žydšaudžiai" ("Jew-shooters", literally). The Nazis basically wiped out Jews in Lithuania. My great grandmother was the only one of her family to make it out of Lithuania alive. I don't know details; she refused to mention or even acknowledge anything before coming to America.
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May 28, 2015 22:08
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bigtom posted:I'm a Reform Jew, and I agree America is tops for us - but not the rural south (or rural anywhere). Moved from NJ to Eastern Carolina for a job and I hear things in passing like "he/she tried to jew me down on the price" more often than I would like (Dad's side of the family is Irish, so I fly under the radar) as well as "you're the first Jew I've ever met...you seem so normal.." Even some of my family on my dad's side would make comments every now and again about how I'm not a "real Jew," as if the bar mitzvah wasn't enough. You're mistake was going to the Carolinas, where they're all about serving up pork. You should have gone to Texas, where it is all about a good brisket. And Anti-semitism is a bit above my paygrade. thrakkorzog fucked around with this message at 09:12 on May 29, 2015 |
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May 29, 2015 09:02
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CwHISOKIrY Is this an accurate portrayal of Kosher?
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May 29, 2015 14:00
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So it recently came out that an ultra-orthodox sect in north london is discouraging women from driving:quote:Leaders of the ultra-Orthodox Belz sect in north London wrote to parents saying "no child will be allowed to learn in our school" if their mother drives. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32935767 Is this a common thing in orthodox circles? I confess I've never paid much attention to this kind of stuff. And the original article from the Jewish Chronicle: http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/136878/stamford-hill-sect-bans-women-drivers Edit: In the balance of fairness, a lot of prominent Jews have come out and said it's ridiculous. Private Eye fucked around with this message at 11:26 on May 30, 2015 |
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May 30, 2015 11:22
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