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death is certain, bwee
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Apr 22, 2015 04:21
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I'm okay with a monkey suffering from a priapism as long as I know this Sun Chip-flavored lip balm won't cause it to happen to me thanks to extensive lab tests.
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Apr 22, 2015 04:29
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It is an unfortunate necessity and the benefits far outweigh the costs.
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Apr 22, 2015 04:34
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Bwee posted:have you guys seen that "head transplant" thing in the news? do you think the experimentation that led to that with monkeys was justified? I think that guys going to be brain dead afterwards but I hadn't heard anything about the monkeys. How long did they live? What was there motor control like if any? idk swapping your head out onto another body in order to live longer is like the apex of crapulence and seems perverse to me; You've lived your life it's time to move on. If this leads to quadriplegics being able to walk again instead of spending their life in a stephen hawking wheel chair then hey, fantastic, but honestly head swapping seems like a really stupid way to fix this problem.
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Apr 22, 2015 04:39
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Digital Fingers posted:LOL gently caress off pick 
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Apr 22, 2015 04:41
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Digital Fingers posted:I think that guys going to be brain dead afterwards but I hadn't heard anything about the monkeys. How long did they live? What was there motor control like if any? Actually cosmetic surgery is how doctors stay in practice and develop the techniques they need to help people who have been disfigured. I would take cosmetic head transplants as a good sign because that means the science has developed to the point that I can count on it in a time of need.
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Apr 22, 2015 04:44
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you love me applewhite
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Apr 22, 2015 04:44
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Digital Fingers posted:you love me applewhite You've been making good and smart posts ITT. I don't agree with everything you say but I love the way you say it.
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Apr 22, 2015 04:46
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all positions are equally respected here but in the interests of a frank and open dialogue I think we all should be forthcoming with any ulterior motives in lobbying for more dogs in mascara applewhite
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Apr 22, 2015 04:57
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Applewhite posted:Actually cosmetic surgery is how doctors stay in practice and develop the techniques they need to help people who have been disfigured. I would take cosmetic head transplants as a good sign because that means the science has developed to the point that I can count on it in a time of need. Cosmetic surgery is great anyway, people should be able to look how they want.
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Apr 22, 2015 05:06
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Would it be ethical for aliens vastly smarter than we to farm humans? edit: Or to experiment on us to ensure the survival of their own race? Sir John Feelgood fucked around with this message at 05:18 on Apr 22, 2015 |
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Apr 22, 2015 05:13
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this is why we have IACUC, OP though the amount of shits given about non-charismatic animals is still pretty low Sir John Feelgood posted:Would it be ethical for aliens vastly smarter than we to farm humans? ...yes
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Apr 22, 2015 05:30
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Better them than me.
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Apr 22, 2015 05:31
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Sir John Feelgood posted:Would it be ethical for aliens vastly smarter than we to farm humans? Seriously, just read some stuff by Peter Singer, he's definitely got a view but in his various rebuttals and etc. you'll see how this issue is explored. My general feeling is yes, it would be, although I hope that doesn't happen because I don't want to die suffering.
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Apr 22, 2015 05:42
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I think I made the question too easy by putting it in terms of absolute life or death. Most of us probably exercise little judgment when an organism's survival is definitely at stake. There are numerous obvious ways to rephrase the question.
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Apr 22, 2015 06:15
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intelligence is only a factor in ethics inasmuch as it's wronger to harm something the more upset it's likely to be about it (as best as we can determine), it confers no extra privileges unless you are a nazi in a science fiction story. Octopuses and stuff are pretty smart but we're not about to confer them extra rights or give them really stupid peoples' stuff like they're more deserving. Nobody is going to compare IQ scores to decide whether it's OK for you to hit their sister. Whether an alien species has any claims on us would IMO (assuming neither we nor they succeeded in killing the other off right off the bat) come down to whether they can coexist in a society with us like people or whether they're just smart animals we can't swindle or trade dumb stoner philosophy with. A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 06:54 on Apr 22, 2015 |
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Apr 22, 2015 06:16
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Like I indicated on the first page, I don't think intelligence is the attribute one should look at when deciding whether it's ethical to make an animal miserable for our benefit. I said that "the capacity to suffer" is what we should look at, which you said was impossible to determine. But now I think I should have said "whether an animal appears to us to display signs of suffering." One could possibly then cast doubt on whether what seems like suffering is actual subjective suffering, but to that I'd say that when in doubt about whether torturing an animal will cause it real suffering, it's best to err on the side of caution and not torture it. It seems to me that you're taking a different stance than the one you took on the first page, but it's very late and I'm tired so I could be reading you badly Edit: Now that I look closer, you rewrote a bunch of it is what happened. Sir John Feelgood fucked around with this message at 06:58 on Apr 22, 2015 |
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Apr 22, 2015 06:53
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Sir John Feelgood posted:Like I indicated on the first page, I don't think intelligence is the attribute one should look at when deciding whether it's ethical to make an animal miserable for our benefit. I said that "the capacity to suffer" is what we should look out, which you said was impossible to determine. But now I think I should have said "whether an animal appears to us to display signs of suffering." One could possibly then cast doubt on whether what seems like suffering is actual subjective suffering, but to that I'd say that when in doubt about whether torturing an animal will cause it real suffering, it's best to err on the side of caution and not torture it. It seems to me that you're taking a different stance than the one you took on the first place, but it's very late and I'm tired so I could be reading you badly. IMO that is a fair metric, and the one I mostly actually use in practice. I don't really go research how intelligent scientists say a critter is before deciding what I'm going to do with it. I do buy that there's some validity to studying what's actually going on in critters' heads so we're not anthropomorphizing stuff that honestly couldn't give a poo poo and accidentally tormenting stuff that just doesn't speak human body language good, or just misreading things' reactions entirely. A lot of what people intuit as like 'friendly' or 'happy' body language in critters is stress reactions, if you just go by appearances you'll probably be wrong a lot which is where some kind of somewhat objective measure comes in. OTOH the science on all that poo poo's a clusterfuck so IDK, try to minimize harm by whatever metric works best for you, there's no ideal one. I'm not gonna feel too bad about killing a colony of ants that's eating my house even if they writhe around a bit when I spray em and I'll probably puss out on killing the squirrels nesting in the attic and just relocate em instead. Unless I wanna make squirrel stew. E: yeah I didn't see your post right above and changed mine sry
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Apr 22, 2015 07:04
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kill that squirrel family you pussy
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Apr 22, 2015 07:06
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Dungeon Ecology posted:kill that squirrel family you pussy squirrels are a-ok in my book but I will murder the poo poo out of a deer and eat its family i am large and contain multitudes but mostly after years of observation I am solidly convinced that they are dumber than dirt and roughly a billion times as obnoxious. The squirrels try to steal food I leave out and yell incoherently at me when I walk in on them partying on the lawn so they're basically just neighbors
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Apr 22, 2015 07:08
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Alright, so what weapons and skills do I get whne fighting this cow>? Are we still talking about that?
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Apr 22, 2015 07:29
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just popping in to say i cant get enough of it, op
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Apr 22, 2015 07:31
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Ork of Fiction posted:Alright, so what weapons and skills do I get whne fighting this cow>? whatever you got how committed are you to getting that burger
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Apr 22, 2015 07:31
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Double jump and Ice Beam then. gently caress that cow is going to get wrecked hardstyle.
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Apr 22, 2015 07:59
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killaer posted:If the people in charge of animal research were normal people and not sociopathic autistic retard nerds it would be ok ok which cuntry do you live in where people do not have to fill out a stack of paperwork and get constant vet visits for animal experiments
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Apr 22, 2015 11:41
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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You shouldn't drive a car if you didn't build it. You shouldn't live in a house if you didn't build it. You shouldn't eat meat if you didn't kill it. You shouldn't wear a sweater if you didn't knit it.
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Apr 22, 2015 11:49
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I like the idea that the ogre of our fairy tales is really just a representation of humans and how we interact with nature.
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Apr 22, 2015 11:56
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Luvcow posted:I like the idea that the ogre of our fairy tales is really just a representation of humans and how we interact with nature. My favorite fairy tale ogre is Shrek
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Apr 22, 2015 15:39
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he is akin to a loving onion
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Apr 22, 2015 15:50
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Demonachizer posted:You shouldn't drive a car if you didn't build it. Finally, an excuse to never wear another dumb Christmas sweater
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Apr 22, 2015 15:51
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Demonachizer posted:You shouldn't drive a car if you didn't build it. In order to bake an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe.
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Apr 22, 2015 16:01
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| # ? Apr 25, 2024 18:39 |
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:intelligence is only a factor in ethics inasmuch as it's wronger to harm something the more upset it's likely to be about it (as best as we can determine), it confers no extra privileges unless you are a nazi in a science fiction story. Octopuses and stuff are pretty smart but we're not about to confer them extra rights or give them really stupid peoples' stuff like they're more deserving. Cephalopods do have extra rights relative to other invertebrates in that you need paperwork in order to study them in a lab. All other invertebrates you can just do whatever the hell you want. Sir John Feelgood posted:Like I indicated on the first page, I don't think intelligence is the attribute one should look at when deciding whether it's ethical to make an animal miserable for our benefit. I said that "the capacity to suffer" is what we should look at, which you said was impossible to determine. But now I think I should have said "whether an animal appears to us to display signs of suffering." One could possibly then cast doubt on whether what seems like suffering is actual subjective suffering, but to that I'd say that when in doubt about whether torturing an animal will cause it real suffering, it's best to err on the side of caution and not torture it. You'd see tremendous variation among humans though, even though we presume that most humans have an approximately equal capacity to suffer. For example, children who are raised in neglectful environments can develop attachment disorders which mean that they don't signal discomfort (or, more generally, don't solicit comfort). Solitary animals would also be at a disadvantage, because you only express suffering if you feel there's a potential upside to having done so. This is one reason wounded predators often seem so "stoic", there's just no upshot to admitting that it is afflicted.
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Apr 22, 2015 16:05
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