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Ultron's motivations are hard to understand because they change without warning from scene to scene. He goes from wanting to ensure peace by killing the Avengers, to wanting humankind to evolve, to wanting to create new machine life, to wanting to force mankind to evolve by utilizing an extinction level event, to wanting to wipe out mankind and leave only machines. Like, nearly every scene he appears in he has a new motivation and it's almost always without any through line connecting them. Add to that, sometimes he even moves between motivations rapidly in a single scene. The performance is fantastic, but the script really doesn't want to make use of it.
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Apr 24, 2015 15:46
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Saw avengers 2 tonight, friends and I agreed that Winter Soldier was the better avengers movie, with Avengers 1 also being better than this. This had too much repedetive action and was all over the place, much less coherent, kinda silly. No star wars trailer at the start here either, boo.
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Apr 24, 2015 16:09
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I'm just going to second my love for Ultron's performance because goddamn. The first bit where he staggers in as that messy group of wires and armour plating, simply...rambling and stringing together analogies and talking points in a monologue that's all over the place has stuck me with more than any of the action sequences. It was so well acted and was a fantastic, fantastic way of establishing the character.
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Apr 24, 2015 16:15
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poptart_fairy posted:I'm just going to second my love for Ultron's performance because goddamn. The first bit where he staggers in as that messy group of wires and armour plating, simply...rambling and stringing together analogies and talking points in a monologue that's all over the place has stuck me with more than any of the action sequences. It was so well acted and was a fantastic, fantastic way of establishing the character. Yeah that scene was like, ridiculous. So good. So loving good. James Spader really has to deal with 2 things here: convey the character/personality of Ultron and 2: convey his master plan. With the first, he succeeds astonishingly. This is an enduring, memorable villain. The second is a bit more dubious. Spader was let down by the writing in this respect a little bit.
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Apr 24, 2015 16:54
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Ghost Head posted:Yeah that scene was like, ridiculous. So good. So loving good. James Spader really has to deal with 2 things here: convey the character/personality of Ultron and 2: convey his master plan. With the first, he succeeds astonishingly. This is an enduring, memorable villain. The second is a bit more dubious. Spader was let down by the writing in this respect a little bit. I don't think so. Ultron is also evolving, and so is his plan. He's been programmed - loosely - to want peace. So the first thing he wants to do is kill all the warriors, starting with the ones who can cause the most damage. Then he thinks "Well, there was war before superbeings so let's kill everyone". Then he completes himself and reckons he's better than humans, so why not replace humanity with machines who won't want to fight if there are no enemies? Then he notices he's learning from his mistakes in combat and wonders if humans can't learn to be better too, so he'll drop an ELE on them to force them to improve and stop fighting each other. Finally, he takes the stance that only the strongest survive; humanity can't ever be as strong as machines, so killing them all is doing nature's work. It's a consistent chain of thought shaped by the things that happen to him in the movie.
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Apr 24, 2015 17:15
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Yeah, I think it's entirely deliberate. He even changes motivation in the span of a few seconds as he reasons and refines his argument. He's becoming more extreme, more specialized - I'd argue it seems inconsistent because of the voicework. He's incredibly emotive and seemingly laid back for something so cold and calculating, but I suppose we can blame that on what he "inherits" from Stark's personality.
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Apr 24, 2015 17:19
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Eh, I don't know about this. And if I wanted to comment, I'd feel more comfortable doing so when everyone has seen the film. I didn't see the level of evolution in the film that you guys hinted at. Like, maybe he has a big plan and just didn't reveal it right away but I didn't get a good sense that he was changing over time.
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Apr 24, 2015 17:47
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Fury alludes to some greater enemy that Ultron is preparing for. Is this a reference to Thanos?]
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Apr 24, 2015 18:58
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Baron Bifford posted:Fury alludes to some greater enemy that Ultron is preparing for. Is this a reference to Thanos?] Almost certainly.
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Apr 24, 2015 19:15
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Baron Bifford posted:Fury alludes to some greater enemy that Ultron is preparing for. Is this a reference to Thanos?] And people said Disney threw out all of the Star Wars EU.
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Apr 24, 2015 19:44
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computer parts posted:And people said Disney threw out all of the Star Wars EU.
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Apr 24, 2015 19:52
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I'll tell you what I can't stop burping when thinking about who is coming next. I see some comments about star wars and thanos and I think I should just take it loving easy for a while
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Apr 24, 2015 20:35
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One thing that I didn't think was explained very well was Wanda and Pietro's relationship with Ultron. They almost seem to know each other from the very beginning - was there meant to be an implication that he remembers the time before he became a robot?
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Apr 24, 2015 21:20
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The real takeaway from this film is that in the Avengers universe the atmosphere is just as dense and warm at like 30,000ft as it is on the ground. Even the civilians are running around no problem. I guess that's how the Helicarrier flys so well.
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Apr 24, 2015 23:51
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I've heard that at the end of the film scarlet witch has a different costume. Is this true? Also, I get killing quicksilver since he's still involved in the x-men films. It seems like fox is ignoring SW so maybe this is just marvels way of simplifying things for the casual audience
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Apr 25, 2015 00:18
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Yes, she gets s new costume.
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Apr 25, 2015 00:41
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Right now in the MCU I'd put this in a solid #3 spot behind GotG and Winter Soldier. Good points - Hawkeye: He's always been my favourite Marvel character (well except Gambit but that's Fox) so I was really glad to see him get due credit in this one. Characterising him as a regular dude who's job just happens to be saving the world was a great idea, the audience I was with gasped at him having wife and kids and his chat to Wanda was a highlight. My favourite thing about it was the whole movie set up his death and then swerved away from it. There was a moment where he's driving with Natasha and figuring out his next home improvement which seemed intentionally to make you expect a Wash in Serenity moment that I thought was really fun. - Quicksilver: His powers were done better in X-Men but in terms of character this version was far superior. X-Men's Quicksilver was just a snotty teen, here Aaron Taylor-Johnson took not much material and delivered a smug performance that remained relateable and likeable. And I loved that they showed him needing moments to catch his breath, it really brought home that this dude is doing a crazy amount of running. - Vision/Wanda: The other two newbies were also very interesting. When Vision first picked up the hammer the audience super gasped. The action: All the action scenes were really well done both in stunts and cinematography, particularly the sequence in Korea. It seems like Marvel's really upped their game on this front with their last few movies. - Klau: I liked how he fit into the movie. If you knew nothing about Black Panther then he would have just seemed like a random goon. For those who do, he did a good job of getting me interested in seeing more. - Ultron: Not what I expected. For an evil AI he was very lowkey. It really worked though. Bad points - Hulk/Natasha: Their romance just didn't land with me as genuine. They weren't the only characters to feel like they'd changed arbitrarily (hi Tony) but this was the worst - Thor: Wasted. - Nick Fury: I didn't really see the point of him being there. I think it woulda been better to give his inspiring speech to Hawkeye considering the scene he'd just had with his wife. - Quicksilver's death: Ughhhhhhh. I really wanted to see more of him. Dan Didio posted:Yes, she gets s new costume. Still no headdress. BrianWilly's gonna be so mad 
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Apr 25, 2015 00:41
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Hakkesshu posted:One thing that I didn't think was explained very well was Wanda and Pietro's relationship with Ultron. They almost seem to know each other from the very beginning - was there meant to be an implication that he remembers the time before he became a robot? Well, I think that there was a semi-abandoned sub-plot in there about him being their adopted father in a way. If he is the Mind Gem then he created them, which is why their turning on him stung so much. I don't know that this was very well explored though, it's a real fill in the blanks thing where it should have tied together the films entire theming (given the Stark->Ultron, Ultron/Stark->Vision, Hawkguy->Little Agents, Black Widow/Hulk ->No Babies legacies that were sketched out). The Ultron's plan was evolving thing is much the same; I can totally buy that theory, but I don't think the film does a great job of establishing it while its running, nor does it explore it very well. Something else that stuck out to me, without Shield the Avengers suck at securing sites. Ultron went back to the same drat castle like three times; had they just posted a guard there they would have known where he was without needing Magical morse code signals.
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Apr 25, 2015 02:12
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Rarity posted:The action: All the action scenes were really well done both in stunts and cinematography, particularly the sequence in Korea. It seems like Marvel's really upped their game on this front with their last few movies. One example I can still remember that was especially noticeable was the last stand against the wave of Ultron bots, where first they are introduced as a huge group of robots swarming into the frame... but like a third or more of the entire frame is completely wasted on background trashed buildings while the 'huge swarm' is kinda relagated to a small chunk of the frame (and this type of shot happens more than once during this sequence). The 'huge swarm' looks small, and on top of that it's from a distance that makes them look individually small. Then the robots run to attack the Avengers, but most of them are obscured by the foreground, hiding the supposed massiveness of the attack. There is never a sense of enormous numbers, or overwhelming odds, or even a sense of danger. This charge leads to the "money shot" of the Avengers easily taking out robo-putties as the camera circles them, which includes a high number of poorly framed or way-up-close shots of the individual Avengers tearing down a few bots with ease, and then it ends. I can't remember the last time I've watched such a tension-less "last stand", and a lot of it was due to the cinematography. It completely deflated any feeling of "Avengers triumphant after hard-fought battle", and it didn't even work as some sort of satire of the "heroes easily overcome overwhelming odds" trope.
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Apr 25, 2015 02:33
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Sense and Motion posted:I very much disagree with this. While the movie in general looks better than Avengers and has some nice shots sprinkled throughout, I found most of the action cinematography to be mediocre or worse. Yeah, that's easily the worst part of the finale. I understand what he was trying to do with the close-up shots in making it look like a series of comic book panels, but it just looks really, really poor and the whole sequence is really toothless.
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Apr 25, 2015 02:35
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Nition posted:The real takeaway from this film is that in the Avengers universe the atmosphere is just as dense and warm at like 30,000ft as it is on the ground. Even the civilians are running around no problem. I guess that's how the Helicarrier flys so well.
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Apr 25, 2015 02:42
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bowmore posted:Nah, adrenaline/scared for your life can do some funny things. They mentioned I think less than half-way through the climb that they were at 18,000ft. If they got to even 30,000ft by the end you're talking -30 degree temperatures and a major lack of oxygen. It just seemed ridiculous how everyone acted like they were right on the ground the whole time. I mean, I know it's a dumb superhero action movie but that part was pushing it. Nition fucked around with this message at 02:59 on Apr 25, 2015 |
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Apr 25, 2015 02:52
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bowmore posted:Nah, adrenaline/scared for your life can do some funny things. Not at "18,000 feet and rising" it can't. Easily the silliest moment of the movie. It must have topped out at 30k feet by the time they all got off, at that height not only would they have been dead, they would have been frozen. I don't buy that Thor was wasted though, he was attached to some serious airy fairy BS in the movie as it is and plainly we're going to get some serious BS in the future so I'm glad he was held in check. They're definitely out of ideas with Stark though.
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Apr 25, 2015 03:22
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It's especially silly since Avengers 1 specifically pointed out the breathing problems with the helicarrier and had its deck crews in specialized suits and oxygen masks. As for Stark, I have a feeling Civil War will end Iron Man's adventures in the MCU. At least for a good while. RDJ's pretty much stated its his last movie as Iron Man and Marvel has been phasing in new people who could take Stark's spot.
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Apr 25, 2015 03:30
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Nition posted:They mentioned I think less than half-way through the climb that they were at 18,000ft. If they got to even 30,000ft by the end you're talking -30 degree temperatures and a major lack of oxygen. It just seemed ridiculous how everyone acted like they were right on the ground the whole time. I mean, I know it's a dumb superhero action movie but that part was pushing it. It is a dumb superhero action movie, so I don't think you can fault it for not making perfect sense, however simply ignoring stuff like that is a pretty big waste of concept. If you're going to do something ludicrous like lift a city into the air, then at least have some fun with all the complications that it brings. It's not the lack of science, but the lack of attention that betrays the concept, I think.
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Apr 25, 2015 04:25
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Saw this earlier. I enjoyed it a lot, but I see where comparisons to Iron Man 2 come from. It was rather disjointed and had far too many elements in it. It's still great fun though, the mere fact that it hangs together at all when it's so busy is in itself an achievement! Some observations: 1) I enjoyed the way the entire film is built around foreshadowing Hawkeye's death, but it's a trick and Quicksilver dies instead. They even have QS say, almost to the camera, "Didn't see that coming, did you?"! The foreshadowing was a bit heavy-handed though. 2) Speaking of Hawkeye, I thought it was rather funny that Whedon clearly realised he was in a little bind having to write for an underpowered character hanging around with these superbeings, and then remembered when he'd been in this spot before, and decided to just make Hawkeye Xander from Buffy. Middle-aged Xander, with a wife and kids, but still Xander. He's the heart of the group! (Whatever that means) 3) The last act of the film really does feel like a clear reaction to Man of Steel.
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Apr 25, 2015 07:02
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Saw it a couple of days ago. It's a step up from the first movie, but honestly this seems mostly like it's kind of stepping stone for Civil war or something, more like it's setting up the plot further in the MCU than being a good stand alone movie. Here's what I liked: Hawkguy: A lot more focus on him in this movie, it fleshes him out more with some backstory, and generally made him a fun guy instead of the dour angry old man he was in the first one. Had some of the best lines in the movie. "Gee, last time I saw him Ultron was sitting on him" was hilarious. They brought him more in line with his comic counterpart, but not a carbon copy. Ultron: The voice acting is top notch, which is expected from Spader. Strikes a good balance between menacing and nonchalant. Can clearly see the influence from daddy Stark. Team synergy: Seeing the teams fight together like well oiled machines was a treat. Especially Thor's and Cap's power combos. Total nerd candy. Cap: Steve steps up his game. He's more sure of himself, and instead of being this tiny schmuck in a silly costume he actually feels more like a hero now, more presence. Chalking some of that up to his improved outfit. He also looked physically huge, which probably helps too. Vision casually lifting the hammer was pretty cool. The hammer scenes in general were pretty funny. What I didn't like: Ultron: He's all over the place. No clear motive, his motivations keep changing, and his big doomsday plan is to launch a city into the sky then bring it down? What? He's the most advanced AI in the world, leagues more advanced than anything anyone can throw at him, and that's his plan? Yikes. Black widow and the hulk. What? There's a romance that came out of the left field. Just felt it was stupid. Is She supposed to have a new love interest every movie now? Quicksilver: Stupid costume, stupid hair, stupid accent, stupid sob story. Their sob story about Stark tech was laughable, rather than invoking sympathy. Then there's this weird mishmash of half-finished ideas and plots. Ultrons obsession with his church, the movie hints heavily at Tony being in the wrong the whole movie until he's suddenly not, stuff like that. Sloppy camera work. When the heroes are fighting, the last thing I want is a close up of their facial expressions. I want to see who they're fighting,. Better than Avengers, but that's damning with the faintest of praises. Any character progress Tony made in IM3 was totally gone, he's still the same person he was in Iron man 1. At least Cap seems to have grown into his role as a leader, Tony just seems stuck perpetually in hybris genius philantropist mode who thinks he can solve everything on his own.
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Apr 25, 2015 08:31
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McCloud posted:
I don't get why people aren't getting this. She's literally named after an animal that kills what it fucks. Her superpower is using her sexuality to get people to do what she wants without them realizing it.
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Apr 25, 2015 08:53
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McCloud posted:
I also thought it was dumb that he didn't think of anything better to build than more of those police robots or whatever they were. You know, like imagine if all those robots had guns. Or just a few big anti-avenger weapons mounted around the city.
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Apr 25, 2015 09:12
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weekly font posted:I don't get why people aren't getting this. She's literally named after an animal that kills what it fucks. Her superpower is using her sexuality to get people to do what she wants without them realizing it. So she is every female spy character in every piece of fiction ever?
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Apr 25, 2015 09:55
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People are calling BW a slut and that's not fair. She's only ever had a serious romance with Banner at this point. Tony tried to flirt with her but she rejected him. There is nothing to say she was more than a friend to Hawkeye. She flirted with Captain America but he rejected her. Only then did she go for Banner with success.
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Apr 25, 2015 10:13
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Jeremy Renner posts here?
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Apr 25, 2015 10:20
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McCloud posted:What I didn't like: Actually, it's a pretty good plan. Dropping a city-sized meteor is quick enough that the world wouldn't be able to marshal forces against it, and once accomplished the damage is done. Instead of having to chase humanity down around the world Skynet-style and risk them fighting back and maybe even winning, he sets their destruction in motion with a single irrevocable action and waits. Using an occupied city is tactically sound because even if the Avengers find a way to destroy the city they will have moral qualms, and if they ignore those qualms they will lose the trust of the world even as they save it.
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Apr 25, 2015 10:29
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There was nothing between her and Hawkeye in the first Avengers, and she certainly didn't do anything with Cap in Winter Soldier. I don't know why that is so hard for some people to grasp.
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Apr 25, 2015 12:05
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Oasx posted:There was nothing between her and Hawkeye in the first Avengers, and she certainly didn't do anything with Cap in Winter Soldier. I don't know why that is so hard for some people to grasp. There was loads of really, really obvious flirting, dude.
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Apr 25, 2015 12:58
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Mr. Flunchy posted:There was loads of really, really obvious flirting, dude. With Cap to be sure, but Rodgers explicitly shot her down and told her he wanted her as a friend, not a lover. Personally, I don't get why she needed to have a love interest at all. Women are allowed to be strong and independent, though maybe not in Hollywood's view of the world.
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Apr 25, 2015 13:00
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I don't see what the issue is, we don't know what happened in the banner and bw's down time
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Apr 25, 2015 13:02
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McCloud posted:
It's not like there's any shortage of fighting in the movie. For one scene they change it up a bit, obviously intentionally not sloppily (the amount of time and work that went into that sequence must have been immense). I think it works. And they don't just show their faces in close-up for the whole scene, only the start of it. Mr. Flunchy posted:There was loads of really, really obvious flirting, dude. Which was acknowledged in this movie.
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Apr 25, 2015 13:13
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Regarding Banner and Natasha: I thought it was pretty obvious that the "lullaby" was a post-hypnotic trigger implanted in Banner so the Hulk could be "turned off". On both occasions she uses exactly the same words - "Hey big guy, the sun's getting low" - but it'd be loving stupid if she could only get the Hulk to stop in the evening, wouldn't it? So it's just a touch, not even really sexual, but reminding Banner of the way he feels about her so he'll relax and drop out of his Hulk state. So she's playing him, but she does care anyway.
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Apr 25, 2015 13:15
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Cythereal posted:With Cap to be sure, but Rodgers explicitly shot her down and told her he wanted her as a friend, not a lover. Flirting sure, but she was clearly never actually interested in him, that is why the thing with Banner was something special.
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Apr 25, 2015 13:22
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