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New episode! This one features ChaosArgate, whom I talk at quite extensively. Maybe he can join me again in a future episode and I'll shut up long enough to actually let him say stuff! Open the boss door, get on the lava floor, everybody bomb the dinosaur.The commentary in this one is a little more solid I think, since I did it afterwards. Less pausing, noise and popping, still some stumbling over words. Not sure if the audio quality is quite there yet, tell me if you think it's better. I haven't really contacted many people about commentary yet, but I'll be doing that soon. The next two episodes will be a bit shorter I think and will have child link doing some dungeons like a cool guy, and the episode after that will feature some crazy poo poo! Look forward to it. Sidenote: I redid the first portion of the run so I could do a few things, namely buy a magic bean and not open the deku shield chest in the well. They are minor differences so I didn't feel the need to redo the first videos or anything, but I meant to mention it in commentary and forgot. Sorry! I put a note in the video, if it's too annoying I'll remove it or something. DoctorKill fucked around with this message at 00:34 on May 13, 2015 |
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May 13, 2015 00:28
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Good stuff, can't complain. ChaosArgate obviously got a bit swamped in the commentary, but with a string of stuff as weird as RBA going on that really couldn't have been helped.  Memory manipulation is a tricky business, but I'm guessing the strangest of that is now pretty much done with.
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May 13, 2015 02:57
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If it's not too long/boring/technical, could you explain some of the differences between RBA and Bottle Adventure? I was getting confused as to what made them different. Great LP by the way, I always love seeing games get hilariously broken.
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May 13, 2015 03:34
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If I recall correctly, Bottle Adventure is where your items/item on C-right dictates your bottle item, and Reverse Bottle Adventure is where your bottle item dictates your items. Or something like that.
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May 13, 2015 03:42
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I remember the 100% OOT run that they did during the Awesome Games Done Quick marathon earlier this year makes use of several of these glitches (getting the hookshot early, beating Dodongo's Cavern quick as an adult), but it's cool to hear them explained with more detail. Loving these videos. 
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May 13, 2015 03:44
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What exactly is the appeal in how Ocarina of Time gets speedran as opposed to other games? Does it hit some sweet spot in terms of being badly programmed while still being sufficiently complex? Or is there something about the game that makes it all the more rewarding to break over your knee? (For comparison: Majora's Mask has most of the same kinds of glitches, but breaking that game is not as satisfying because it is shorter than Ocarina of Time in terms of overall progression.) Or is this an affect of age? Like how we've only seen Wind Waker TASing become suddenly tenable once the game's been out for at least 10 years?
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May 13, 2015 04:32
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From what I've seen (mostly watching Big Jon fail miserably at learning basic MM tricks for 10s of hours a week before he quit streaming it), MM's bread and butter tricks require a lot of fiddly input done quickly and precisely a dozen times in a row to get anywhere.
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May 13, 2015 04:38
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It's a combination of a top-rated game ("best game of all time") that everybody knows, riddled with lots of complex tricks, intricate movement, wacky glitches, and limitless potential. There's basically no RNG, which makes it extremely consistent, and so you get lots of route planners and "setups". Even people who are bad at video games, like me, manage to contribute to the speedrunning community for it. Things are still being discovered in OoT. You can do anything in OoT if you put your mind to it. It's super easy to pick up and put down, it's easily obtainable on lots of platforms. It's spawned lots of speedrun styles, the concept of "bingo" races, hell, even puzzle races. There's lots of complexity in the game at a surface level, and weird things start popping out of fun interactions of wacky game mechanics. The game's not that badly programmed, the game is surprisingly resilient to you breaking it over its knee and lets you see where you end up. Lots of other games crash, hang, or softlock where OoT just keeps on trucking. And, due to pause buffering, the game is TASable on console. There's no trick that's "TAS-only", it only requires patience and practice. There's really no other game like it. The Jumpoff posted:If it's not too long/boring/technical, could you explain some of the differences between RBA and Bottle Adventure? I was getting confused as to what made them different. Great LP by the way, I always love seeing games get hilariously broken. "Bottle Adventure" was discovered first, so the other trick was named "Reverse Bottle Adventure". Basically, it allows you to get arbitrary items on your B button that aren't the bottle, using a bottle. They both are due to the same bug in the bottle code, which I can explain better if you want. There's lots of cool things you can do with that. I imagine Doctor Kill is planning on showing it off at some point.
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May 13, 2015 04:59
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The funny thing about BA and RBA is that, knowing about both, RBA will always be the easiest and most common of the two to do. But it's still "Reverse," which is a bit confusing to people learning glitches. I assume this is probably because it took some time to figure out that catching stuff on B had such a profound effect - if you weren't actively messing with it it probably appears to only ever put bottles in your inventory, which you could do with other methods anyway.SWMadness posted:I remember the 100% OOT run that they did during the Awesome Games Done Quick marathon earlier this year makes use of several of these glitches (getting the hookshot early, beating Dodongo's Cavern quick as an adult), but it's cool to hear them explained with more detail. Loving these videos. They don't get hookshot early, at least in the sense that I did it. The hookshot is the first item you should get as adult, and that's what they do. Getting it EARLY, as child, is fun but definitely much slower, so they'd never do it in a speedrun. I actually had to work out how to get it with bombchus myself since there isn't really much of a precedent, although I saw someone get it with bombs and worked off of that. Glad you enjoy the videos! dis astranagant posted:From what I've seen (mostly watching Big Jon fail miserably at learning basic MM tricks for 10s of hours a week before he quit streaming it), MM's bread and butter tricks require a lot of fiddly input done quickly and precisely a dozen times in a row to get anywhere. I wouldn't say MM requires more precision or anything, but it has different movement and bomb mechanics so most of the tricks are more 'manual.' Other than that though, MM has a lot of the same smaller tricks, but less dungeons and definitely less BIG glitches. It actually does have wrong warps and reverse bottle adventure, but they are generally useless for doing anything. They become useful in MM3D though! You actually warp into Great Bay boss room and into Stone Tower in that, it's pretty neat. Ocarina of Time just has a greater variety of tricks and categories, as well as just having more nostalgia and popularity, which gives it a bigger base of players in the community. DoctorKill fucked around with this message at 05:26 on May 13, 2015 |
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May 13, 2015 05:23
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DoctorKill posted:Sorry I don't think I'll do the TAS thing, I feel like there are better people for that? I dunno. I remember downloading a TAS of this game that was like a big time drop and/or an anniversary of the game coming out. It had commentary tracks from three different community members! I was so excited, since if you don't know all the behind-the-scenes stuff OoT runs are really opaque. To my dismay, all three tracks were just talking about how excited they were Christmas morning when they first got the game and blah blah blah. What I'm saying is I'm excited about this LP, and think you'd do better than what I've seen.
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May 13, 2015 06:00
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George posted:I was so excited, since if you don't know all the behind-the-scenes stuff OoT runs are really opaque. To my dismay, all three tracks were just talking about how excited they were Christmas morning when they first got the game and blah blah blah. Oh well you don't have to worry about me talking about how much I like Ocarina of Time, I actually hate it and all other video games.
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May 13, 2015 06:06
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I think I understand now; a rough combination of nostalgia and being easily done on console versions as opposed to being TAS-only. Were some other game to be one of the top-rated games in some alternate universe, it would only have generated the same glitchfest interest if it was also as fault-tolerant. So is the problem with glitchrunning other games, like Wind Waker, that because it isn't as fault-tolerant it is more prone to softlocking and crashing?
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May 13, 2015 07:18
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There's nothing wrong with WW. It has a rich and vibrant speedrunning community in the same way. It even has some pretty broken glitches too. The specific glitches in OoT comes from a variety of places. Nintendo's focus and history with doing everything from scratch and working traditionally with low-level, embedded code is a big factor to play, and there are plenty of glitches in other Nintendo games (I would even say that SM64 is a contender for some pretty amazing glitches in its physics and character movement), but the goals and game structure allows the glitches to break so much more. A glitch in SM64 allows you to get a single star early, or perhaps by not pressing the A button), but there's no real sequence break outside of beating the game without the required 70 stars. SM64 Zelda games take a very item and inventory management-focused approach to puzzle solving, along with an extremely linear game structure (to beat the game, you need to beat the final boss. To beat the final boss, you need to unlock the final dungeon and get the Light Arrows. To unlock the final dungeon / get the Light arrows, you need the Spirit and Shadow Medallions. To get the Spirit Medallion, you need to beat the Spirit Temple. To beat the Spirit Temple, you need to get to the dungeon and have X items), along with a super open world from the get-go. Breaking one of those bits of sequence is enough to be interesting, but combined with the embedded-mindset codebase that only comes with older consoles. It's difficult to explain to somebody why this low-level embedded mindset leads to wacky glitches, but basically, the programmers weren't checking for all possible states of something. You can put any item value on any button, because that's how the button system worked, but certain items on the B button just flat out break the game, because the code for the item wasn't ever used or tested when on that B button. In a similar way, the reason bottle duplication works is because when you start swinging, the game saves which C button you pressed, and then when you catch something, it updates that button's item to the "empty bottle" item. The programmers never imagined somebody pausing the game in the middle of that sequence to change out their C button items, and so the code breaks. Think about all the tiny interactions items have with another in the game, and there's endless possibility. Try doing two things at the same time: Killing yourself while a cutscene starts? Both activate, so you get the effects of both (you get the Bolero of Fire, and you can save/quit/respawn). Release a fish from a bottle when you also press a switch? Both the "drop fish" cutscene activates, the "press switch" cutscene activates, and the game gets confused about both of them playing at the same time, so it forgets to end the "press switch" cutscene until after the fish despawns, so you can enter the door later. You also saw that same core bug with Actor Glitch and Get Item Manipulation where you were in multiple cutscenes at once and the game forgot to finish loading the map, or you humped a chest and got the Spooky Mask. Wind Waker actually has this same bug, where the global event list is interrupted, and you end up with this wacky glitch called Storage that lets you walk around while chests are opening, disable collision detection by interrupting a door, etc. Super Mario 64 has this same bug. Catch a bomb while it despawns and you get this magical ability to make clones, as I linked to above, but there's plenty of others. Jeez, this is way too many words about a dumb game for idiot babies.
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May 13, 2015 08:03
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DoctorKill posted:Oh well you don't have to worry about me talking about how much I like Ocarina of Time, I actually hate it and all other video games. Well, small confession here on my part then. I actually don't like Ocarina of Time at all. I never got to play it on the N64 as a kid, and the first time I got to was on the 3DS. At that point I just couldn't get into it at all. Though I love Majora's Mask to death for some reason. But still, this LP is super fun to watch, I'm having a blast seeing all these little things you can do. Thank you.
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May 13, 2015 08:05
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Oh I am very down for this.
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May 13, 2015 08:47
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Lynkericious posted:Well, small confession here on my part then. I actually don't like Ocarina of Time at all. I never got to play it on the N64 as a kid, and the first time I got to was on the 3DS. At that point I just couldn't get into it at all. Though I love Majora's Mask to death for some reason. Funnily enough I actually started from the same direction. I never hated Ocarina of Time but I was way more interested in Majora's Mask when I first started speedrunning. It's a speedier game with better bomb hovering, and the multiple forms is a cool game mechanic. But then I learned about the big OoT glitches like Wrong Warp and RBA that sort of gave it a bigger variety of things to do, so I kind of switched over. I really love glitches and OoT simply just has way more of them. The big OoT community actually had a huge effect on this too, there are way more resources for learning OoT tricks even compared to MM, which has a fairly large community as well.
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May 13, 2015 08:55
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Oh man, I love Let's Break threads. This is excellent. By the way, I own a pop filter, which automatically makes me a higher quality of human being than all of these schlubs. If you want me to contribute my annoying voice to any episodes, feel free to Skype me at ganduro.
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May 13, 2015 09:08
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 I am so here for this. If I can lend you my voice, let me know, I'd love to come along and see someone break this game over their knee! (also don't feel too bad about your commentary, it takes a while to get used to talking for the internet, I've been doing it practically every week for seven months now and I still ummm all over the place, it just takes time and practice!)
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May 13, 2015 09:24
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Morroque posted:So is the problem with glitchrunning other games, like Wind Waker, that because it isn't as fault-tolerant it is more prone to softlocking and crashing? I'd say the "problem" is that they don't offer nearly as much variety and options. Wind Waker, for example, is really glitchy but simply the way it's structured and how some of the flags are set (plus the lack of wrong warps) compared to OoT results in its any% being over 4 hours long instead of less than 18 minutes. OoT is so malleable you can come up with a speedrunning category of almost any length and still have it make sense. All Dungeons, 100%, Ganonless, MST, No RBA/WW... there's a whole bunch of "official" (read: prestigious) categories and ways to beat the game and pretty much anyone could come up with a good minor one ("glitched 100%", Child Dungeons...) fairly easily. Not to mention how amazingly well bingo works with the game. Wind Waker, though? There's any%, 100% and Glitchless. Maybe low% but nobody cares. As far as I know, most of the lesser categories simply involve just stopping at some more or less arbitrary point in the middle of the game, but I admit I'm not really too familiar with it.
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May 13, 2015 13:21
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Minor quibble, but being 'fault-tolerant' isn't necessarily the same thing as being well-coded (not that it was the argument above, but I see it come up a lot). Believe it or not, crashing is often a feature in programming; it's usually better in error-catching to stop execution when you see something's gone whacky than to continue running and risk damage (better still to resolve the issue or close gracefully, but in the worst case scenario it's better to crash than risk damaging important things). In videogames however, especially much older games, this was generally much less of a concern; a corrupted save-file is a relatively minor form of destruction compared to over-writing portions of files in an OS, for instance, and the much weaker hardware (and traditionally very strict release deadlines) meant that there wasn't really the time or space to include robust error handling. It's also a LOT of fun to watch. This is a fantastic LP, and I'm really enjoying it. I would say your commentary has been improving as well; I'm eager to see what's next.
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May 13, 2015 19:19
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Hey, I don't mind that you spoke for a good majority of the video, it was fun watching you make the game bug out and then hearing how everything all went together! (fake edit: ahahaha I just noticed what you named the video) Re: Fault tolerance and well-codedness, games up until probably the 5th or 6th generation were really tight on space and often had to omit sanity checkers to fit everything on a limited space cartridge. It's why Pokemon Red and Blue will happily show you Missingno and not freak out since there were no checks to make sure the game was reading wild Pokemon encounter tables from the right addresses. VV Yeah, that's what I meant. ChaosArgate fucked around with this message at 19:34 on May 13, 2015 |
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May 13, 2015 19:29
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Oh the encounter table is still read from the correct place, it just happens to be overwritten with other unrelated data.
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May 13, 2015 19:33
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OP please break the water temple into tiny ant sized pieces because gently caress water temples in Zelda games. gently caress them forever.
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May 13, 2015 19:39
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I like this LP.
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May 13, 2015 20:39
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Are you going to do temples out of order too? It's obviously possible to get into the Shadow and Spirit temples early at this point, will you be doing those before either fire or water?
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May 13, 2015 20:59
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I'll be doing them out of order, though I still do Spirit Temple last, for thematic reasons. The rest are out of order, arranged mostly around how much health I think I'll need for them.Klaus88 posted:OP please break the water temple into tiny ant sized pieces because gently caress water temples in Zelda games. gently caress them forever. I actually really like the water temple, it's probably one of the more interesting ones to glitch through. Starting at the top and the water level mechanic make it lots of fun to get around in ways you aren't supposed to.
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May 13, 2015 21:43
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This is pretty rad, I didn't realize you could break this game so significantly. Thank you for showing this to us.
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May 13, 2015 22:34
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I've seen lots of speedruns of this game, but I never understand half of what I'm seeing. Actually hearing explanations as to why this stuff works or what you are actually doing is pretty interesting, especially combined with you showing off glitches that speedrunners don't really use because they don't save frames. Basically, this is cool, keep it up.
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May 14, 2015 04:02
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I would assume not many of these glitches made it in the transition to the 3DS version. Are there any that did?
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May 14, 2015 14:09
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OoT3D still has BA/RBA, wrong warps, supersliding and so on - just not exactly in the same way as OoT does. Basically, at the core the engines are largely the same which leads to the same or similar glitches, but while making OoT3D they patched a lot of very useful glitches such as the easy way to get ISG. Inadvertently, they created a bunch of new ones as well, probably most prominently the glitch that lets you use restricted items anywhere which leads to easy Farore's Wind wrong warps. From what I know, one could say they're more or less equally glitchy games, just in different ways.
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May 14, 2015 15:19
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Welcome to Bonus Stage Dodongo's Cavern: A RetrospectiveJust a little video exploring the bits of Dodongo's Cavern we didn't see, which is all of it. tiistai posted:OoT3D still has BA/RBA, wrong warps, supersliding and so on - just not exactly in the same way as OoT does. I was surprised at how many of the glitches stayed for OoT3D, especially seeing bomb tricks and RBA, which I thought would've been obsoleted by a new build. The trade items are arranged slightly differently in the item list so what byte they point to is different than the 64 version, but it's still all the same bytes, just shifted to different trade items. I mentioned it somewhere, but GIM also works on 3D, it's just that the chest item or get-item table is different which causes you to get different items. You can get the hammer in the Deku tree.
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May 15, 2015 22:36
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Aww, I was kinda hoping you'd show off the Goron Ruby cutscene as adult, it's pretty funny.
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May 16, 2015 00:28
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Sorry, I forget that there's an actual cutscene there a lot, I haven't watched it in quite some time. I can do you one better though. Goron Ruby as Adult, with Iron boots I might add it onto the bonus video and reupload. Edit: Apparently that video matches 3rd party content. Specifically, I seem to have stolen content from... Babeo Baggins - Phat Kat Freestyle  Sorry Babeo Baggins DoctorKill fucked around with this message at 04:59 on May 16, 2015 |
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May 16, 2015 01:31
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This is looking a lot more fun to watch than the speed runs I've seen. awesome idea and thanks for sharing it
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May 16, 2015 01:55
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DoctorKill posted:Apparently that video matches 3rd party content. Specifically, I seem to have stolen content from... Babeo Baggins - Phat Kat Freestyle
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May 16, 2015 09:16
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I actually went and checked out the song, it's literally someone rapping over the Goron City music and I don't really know how to feel about that or how to incorporate that into my general world view.
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May 16, 2015 09:46
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DoctorKill posted:I actually went and checked out the song, it's literally someone rapping over the Goron City music and I don't really know how to feel about that or how to incorporate that into my general world view. Just kill us now aliens.
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May 16, 2015 09:50
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DoctorKill posted:I actually went and checked out the song, it's literally someone rapping over the Goron City music and I don't really know how to feel about that or how to incorporate that into my general world view. Looks like TuneCore is a sleazy company. They and another company apparently have been sending out a poo poo ton of these claims. http://www.polygon.com/2013/12/18/5224022/meet-the-music-companies-behind-many-of-those-youtube-copyright-claims
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May 16, 2015 10:57
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Chances are, they'll back down if you dispute it. They might just be one of those shady companies that tries to claim other people's stuff in the hopes they won't dispute even though they don't actually have a legal leg to stand on.
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May 16, 2015 13:13
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New episode! ChaosArgate joins me again in our backwards time adventure as we loot a ninja fortress. Geru-Do's and Don'tsIt's fairly well known that you can get into Gerudo Fortress as a child so there might be a lot of familiar stuff here, but I do as much as I can then go into the Wasteland and Colossus, at which point I head off to... Ice Cavern? I only get in, actually doing ice cavern will be for next episode, along with Shadow Temple.
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May 19, 2015 23:24
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