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I laughed when Navi mentioned that you needed to go to the Deku Tree. Edit:I have to wonder how you're going to get to Jabu Jabu as Adult Link. Dr Pepper fucked around with this message at 00:16 on May 20, 2015 |
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May 20, 2015 00:11
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This LP has been thoroughly amazing, and I think that your commentary has improved quite a bit, whether it's just from practice or having the second commentator there to help keep you focused, even if they don't get to say too much (which is fine; from a technical standpoint there's a LOT happening, your routing is both excellent and brisk so far). I am genuinely eager to see what you pull out of this poor game next. I didn't really know the full extent of RBA, for starters.
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May 20, 2015 02:50
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This entire play through so far has been fascinating. There is so much to break in this game, that I had no idea. It reminds me of an earlier LP about breaking final fantasy VI by getting the airship just outside of Narshe. Getting to see all the dependencies created to save space on a cartridge is absolutely fascinating.
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May 20, 2015 02:59
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Dr Pepper posted:I laughed when Navi mentioned that you needed to go to the Deku Tree. I'm going to guess the zone line still exists under the ice somehow.
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May 20, 2015 02:59
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That video was neat. I appreciate that you show off a couple ways to do things sometimes, like with the Garudo fortress. Looking forward to the Ice dungeon, for sure.
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May 20, 2015 03:06
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Ever since I discovered sequence breaking I haven't played Ocarina of Time any other way. I can't remember the last time I actually did Dodongo's Cavern as the second dungeon or wasted my loving time turning young for the Bottom of the Well. Breaking old games is so much fun
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May 20, 2015 03:17
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Shady Amish Terror posted:This LP has been thoroughly amazing, and I think that your commentary has improved quite a bit, whether it's just from practice or having the second commentator there to help keep you focused, even if they don't get to say too much (which is fine; from a technical standpoint there's a LOT happening, your routing is both excellent and brisk so far). Hey thanks! I know I still stumble a bit but it's definitely easier talking afterwards. Also, I'll be doing a little more RBA in the future, but the most significant stuff has been done already. Still a few more tricks though. Dr Pepper posted:Edit:I have to wonder how you're going to get to Jabu Jabu as Adult Link. MarquiseMindfang posted:I'm going to guess the zone line still exists under the ice somehow. This is correct! I don't know exactly where the bounds are but the Jabu loading zone is still in that area, underneath the starting platform. I think it's been known about for a while, and I believe a while ago it was considered TAS only because of how complicated it was to get in, but it's been refined over the years and it's possible to do real time. If I remember right at one of the gdq speedrun marathons they did Jabu as adult for an All Dungeons race, though I'll use a different method. Due to the nature of the run I'm doing however I'll be doing Jabu much later, so you'll have to wait a bit, sorry.
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May 20, 2015 03:52
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Dr Pepper posted:Edit:I have to wonder how you're going to get to Jabu Jabu as Adult Link. Just because the Jabu Jabu isn't there, doesn't mean the dungeon isn't 
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May 20, 2015 15:01
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larchesdanrew posted:Just because the Jabu Jabu isn't there, doesn't mean the dungeon isn't It's actually a really cool glitch. I'm looking forward to seeing it. Great job, Doc, I'm loving this. e: Oops, quote isn't edit.
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May 20, 2015 15:02
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Another episode! This time I have Crosspiece coming along for the ride, and I continue my tradition of not letting my co-host say anything.  Link gets some metal gear and defeats shadow roses This is the shortest episode so far but we get a lot of stuff done! Ice Cavern, a brief pit stop in the well, and Shadow Temple, all done. I talk about it in the episode but the reason it's so short is because we skip a lot of shadow temple - it would take much much longer to go through all the rooms as child link due to all the necessary bomb hovering. If every time you see me hover you go WOW I WANT TO SEE THAT FOR 5 STRAIGHT MINUTES then I can do a bonus video but I decided to keep it out of the LP for now. Fun fact about the Shadow Temple: if you aren't wrong warping into it, it REQUIRES you to have Zelda's Lullaby, for the boat. That boat ride is so long and takes you so far that it is literally impossible to have enough explosives to hover across. There is technically a way to do it from the first room BUT it still requires you to use the max amount of explosives you can carry, and I think it's not possible on virtual console. Anyway, next episode will have some cool and crazy poo poo! Some of the sillier OoT glitches will be featured, look forward to it.
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May 25, 2015 00:27
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The madness continues! I'm good without the bomb hovering though. So you said you really like Bongo Bongo as a boss - do you ever sandbag the fight a little bit to get more of the boss battle feel? Are there any areas of the game that you really like, and regret having to skip through for speedrun strats?
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May 25, 2015 03:51
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Prop Wash posted:do you ever sandbag the fight a little bit to get more of the boss battle feel? This is kinda standard practice for me with a lot of 3D Zelda bosses. I've gotten into the habit of restricting myself because otherwise the fights are too easy. And not in a "man I'm such a pro gamer" way, but in a "3D Zelda bosses are kinda pathetic once you know to use the most recent dungeon item" way. Whenever I fight Morpha I enforce a rule of only fighting him on the inner platforms, and never sticking to the outer walkway. With Ganondorf I do three slashes on him, then let him use a ground pound so I have to deal with the platforms collapsing. Makes things way more interesting.
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May 25, 2015 05:23
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Prop Wash posted:The madness continues! I'm good without the bomb hovering though. So you said you really like Bongo Bongo as a boss - do you ever sandbag the fight a little bit to get more of the boss battle feel? Are there any areas of the game that you really like, and regret having to skip through for speedrun strats? Not really, no! I meant I like fighting Bongo Bongo fast, it's harder than it looks. The main way I've interacted with Ocarina of Time is through glitches - I don't even remember playing it as a kid, although I must have since I own it. For me now though it's all about the glitches, if I had to play it normally I would probably feel super frustrated. The closest I've done is restricting the use of certain items or tricks to accomplish a specific goal, but even that is more "use other glitches you don't use as much instead of the more common ones." That's just how I like playing the game. The times I do regret skipping stuff is if I skip cool tricks to do faster tricks! That's one reason why I wanted to do this LP, I wanted to show off tricks that are much less useful but still cool. For this LP I regret all the stuff I can't show like skulltula tricks or more standard speedrun tricks, but I want to keep a narrow and well defined focus so I don't worry about it too much.
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May 25, 2015 06:39
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Thanks for having me on, it was a lot of fun, but it was difficult to actually think of stuff to say instead of spending the entire time going  There were a couple times where I was quite happily sitting and watching the video and forgetting it wasn't the finished product on Youtube and I actually needed to say something. Looking forward to the next one!
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May 25, 2015 19:29
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For some reason (that reason being playing intermittently while being a dumb kid), I've seen the back half of this game a lot less than the first. Seeing Bongo Bongo go down here is very impressive, but just makes me more psyched up to see Dark Link vs kid, adult in Jabu-Jabu, and so on. So I gotta say: your routing is really spot-on in terms of keeping my interest way up.
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May 25, 2015 21:47
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This is a good LP. It's absolutely mindblowing to see how much you can gently caress with poo poo. The thing that really hits me, though, even with all this glitching and bottle adventures going on, is that Ocarina of Time is a really, really good game. I played it a bunch when I was a kid and have very fond memories of it, but I've not been part of the entire 3d remake thing, and I kinda just figured it was nostalgia and the fact that it was the first 3d Zelda, more than quality, y'know. But gently caress if the shadow temple isn't cool and if that enemy design isn't legitimately frightening. And all those sidequests and cool items and cool dungeons and just... so much stuff you can do. I've played Skyward Sword, but it doesn't even come close to OoT. My WiiU has been solely bought for Mario Kart and the upcoming Zelda, but I'm not sure Nintendo can ever produce something better than this. Edit: Bongo Bongo is not cool enough to be the boss of the Shadow Temple. 
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May 25, 2015 22:50
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Bongo Bongo is definitely a...surprise on your first playthrough, but they are definitely cool enough to be the boss of the Shadow Temple in my mind. They are this massive, horrible, otherworldly thing, beating out a controlling tune on a spectral drum hidden deep within a void beyond the veil of mortality past a labrynthine crypt nestled into the foot of a huge mountain called Death. They hang bizarrely above the arena in the darkness and peer out at you from a massive eye nestled in what you would expect to be its neck-stump. Bongo Bongo is weird as hell in a creepy, horror-from-beyond sense, and I think the design works excellently for them to be the boss of the Shadow Temple. 
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May 26, 2015 04:54
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Prop Wash posted:do you ever sandbag the fight a little bit to get more of the boss battle feel? I've dabbled in speedrunning Majora's Mask 3D a little and the redesigned bosses are something I have sort of a love-hate relationship with. In MM you could fairly easily cheese all of them, but MM3D pretty much forces you to fight them legit. Which is kind of cool - there's no need to sandbag the fights at all, they're challenging enough on their own. Well, except Odolwa. The problem is that some of the redesigned fights introduce some RNG bullshit, especially with Gyorg. Plus, they're just slow.
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May 26, 2015 05:00
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I am more interested in watching more of this than anything else in this sub forum
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May 26, 2015 06:35
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tiistai posted:I've dabbled in speedrunning Majora's Mask 3D a little and the redesigned bosses are something I have sort of a love-hate relationship with. In MM you could fairly easily cheese all of them, but MM3D pretty much forces you to fight them legit. Which is kind of cool - there's no need to sandbag the fights at all, they're challenging enough on their own. Well, except Odolwa. Goht I was kinda disappointed in, but the insane awesomeness of the new Twinmold more than makes up for that. MM3D is a really, really good remake.
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May 26, 2015 11:46
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Simply Simon posted:Gyorg's original fight is probably the most dreadfully terrible boss I ever had the misfortune of trying the normal way for several agonizing playthroughs of the temple in a game with no permanent progress-saving, so I was ecstatic about the change. Never mind "slow", I like "actually possible to fight in the water" a whole lot. But the way you damage Gyorg underwater remains exactly the same: swim next to it and hold R. 
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May 26, 2015 11:51
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tiistai posted:But the way you damage Gyorg underwater remains exactly the same: swim next to it and hold R. I have never even been able to damage Gyorg a single time without stunning him with arrows first in the original, which can't be the point. He is way too quick to swallow you up, there is nothing you can do against that, and sometimes he'll even get you while you're still climbing back to the platform to shoot the next arrow, with just a single foot or yours in the water. It's maddening, unfair and absolutely terrible in every way.
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May 26, 2015 12:02
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Oh, yeah, makes sense why you'd prefer it then. I've never even bothered to try to use the fin boomerangs against him since the arrows were just much easier to use. It's a lovely fight in the original to be sure though.
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May 26, 2015 12:43
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I was in my "guide or impossible" phase when I first played MM, and the guide I was using gave this sage advice for Gyorg: "Of course you could stand on the platform and pelt him with arrows, but the best way to fight this oversized fish is where it's home: in the water", which is the worst possible advice. After being chewed up too many times, I DID try the arrows, but a) didn't realize you could shoot INTO the water, so I waited for him to jump over the platform and timed my shots to hit him mid-air b) didn't realize that while he twitched real good from that and screamed, this would never kill him and I HAD to go into the water to deliver actual damage I almost didn't finish MM because of Gyorg and it definitely took me like a year longer than it should have (as in, I had everyting else done BUT Gyorg and really didn't feel like trying anymore). Fucker's traumatic. Otoh, to get back at the Bongo Bongo discussion, I love that goofy fucker. When I was ~14 and played OoT (after MM, as an aside) I had the habit of imagining myself as the hero of the video games I played, maybe I was a little too old for that but whatever. In those stories I made friends with all the bosses, because I wanted cool people at my side helping me out when fighting evil! I always carried Morpha with me in a bottle for example, but my best friend was Bongo Bongo, he loved wearing a gigantic hat so people could see where he was and drink tea from (for him) comically undersized cups  .
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May 26, 2015 13:10
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Dear Doctor, Please, please, for the love of all things amusing about this game, if you could replicate this magical moment with Deku Nuts, that would be super awesome. I can settle for an explanation on what the hell was going on there! Also, how long can we test that thing...inquiring minds want to know, because this is making me want to try and play this game Wrong as well!
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May 26, 2015 17:53
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I actually did sort of show it off already! In part 3 I showed him using a bow animation with the sword, that glitch is the same fundamental glitch. Unfortunately I didn't have a quiver or any arrows at the time so I couldn't show off that it actually worked. But that's what's happening there, when you 'quickdraw' from one item to another the game thinks you have a different item in your hand than what you have, and it bugs out. Switching from hookshot to a bottle makes it try to use the bottle as a first person item, which causes it to shoot arrows that look like deku nuts. Why do they look like deku nuts? I don't know! I don't know what the gently caress is up with any of this, because those deku nut arrows don't stun anything like deku nuts, nor do they hurt anything like actual arrows. It's some strange poo poo let me tell you. Simply Simon posted:I have never even been able to damage Gyorg a single time without stunning him with arrows first in the original, which can't be the point. He is way too quick to swallow you up, there is nothing you can do against that, and sometimes he'll even get you while you're still climbing back to the platform to shoot the next arrow, with just a single foot or yours in the water. It's maddening, unfair and absolutely terrible in every way. Nope, that's correct! Stunning him with arrows is intended, you can tell because the pots on the main platform will drop arrows. You can also use the hookshot to stun him. After that though I think you can actually use zora fins to hurt him but it's been so long since I've tried that I'm not too sure. But it is possible to dodge him after hurting him with the electricity so that he doesn't eat you, it's just very hard. I think they just intended it to be a tough boss fight and expected you to have lots of hearts. That dungeon even gives you double health, I feel like they wanted you to actually get that before you fought Gyorg but maybe I just think that because I always did that as a kid.
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May 26, 2015 22:19
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Ah, yeah, that was a bit badly phrased; I think it can't be intentional that arrow from outside the water => damage inside the water is practically the only way to really do the fight. I do think it's intentionally there as a secondary method, much like Deku Nuts against Odolwa or Arrows against Goht and Twinmold (who even has color-coded elemental weaknesses!). Goron for Goht and Giant's Mask for Twinmold are definitely the main and obvious way to do those in, so it's really strange to me that all Zora, all the time would NOT be it for Gyorg. You can totally damage him with blades after the arrow stun, by the way, it just deals less damage than elec. It should also be possible to hit him with the boomerang shot, but as it flies out then in, it'll always always always hit him from behind first, and he's invulnerable there, which is pretty much the biggest oversight in the fight. If he were not de facto immune to the blades, there would "only" be the issue of way too damaging instant-munch, but I gueeess you could dodge around that. Camera and awkward swim controls would still make the fight a mess, but possible. Bottom line, original MM bosses kinda blow (the final boss is also a huge joke, God mask or no), OoT bosses are quantity and quality, if a little too on-the-nose dungeon item, go. Also, they have the best titles in the German translation. King Dodongo is "Infernosaurus", for example, far better than "Infernal Dinosaur", and Bongo Bongo takes the cake as "Bestialische Schattenmonstrosität", which you might guess from looking at it.
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May 26, 2015 22:52
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Simply Simon posted:Bottom line, original MM bosses kinda blow (the final boss is also a huge joke, God mask or no), OoT bosses are quantity and quality, if a little too on-the-nose dungeon item, go. They're all vastly superior to the bosses in later games, which are almost universally literally "do you know how to use the item we gave you? Okay, good, use it, then hit the boss with your sword when it's stunned."
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May 26, 2015 22:57
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Enjoying every minute of this. Good stuff, man! If you're still taking names, I'll throw mine into the potential co-commentary pool. Skype name "salttotart."
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May 27, 2015 04:41
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Bonus video!  Hyrule TravelIf you're traveling around a lot as a child, getting around Hyrule can be a little tedious. Warp songs are a godsend, but until you get them the game does give you some shortcuts to make use of to cut down travel times. I show off how to use them better than the game ever intended. That's it for now, I just wanted to give a little bonus while we all wait for the next episode.
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May 28, 2015 04:08
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Great stuff man! As someone without a ton of knowledge about the game and even less on speed-running, watching you exploit the game and execute the glitches so nonchalantly is fascinating.
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May 30, 2015 02:17
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Whats interesting is how well the game handles these glitches, especially the bottle adventure/reverse bottle adventure. Is that due to your practice with these glitches and know there limitations and how to avoid really breaking the game into corruption/crashing. Or is the game better designed then others of that era?
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May 30, 2015 03:05
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Nintendo rarely sanity checks anything, which is why so many of their games have ridiculous bugs where you break out of an array and it just keeps going. It's not really better designed, they just figured you'd slap the reset button when things go weird instead of pressing on. Correct behavior for this sort of data execution would be to crash because anything after that point is undefined.
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May 30, 2015 03:41
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So its just chance that oot is so well behaved with the glitches?
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May 30, 2015 03:57
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DoctorKill has mentioned places where if he does things wrong the game will soft or hard lock. It presumably took a lot of experimentation for people to find the useful ways to use the memory corruption glitches.
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May 30, 2015 05:04
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It's chance and some good programing, a lot of the systems are stable. It's also luck how some things are stored in ram. If the ram past the inventory was something else (say not quest rewards) messing with it could cause worse damage. A lot of games were designed just to keep going, due to lack of space or wanting the fastest speed possible. (To see more of what happens without sanity checks, see Let's Break Pokemon Blue, on the LParchive.)
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May 30, 2015 05:05
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Yes a lot of this stuff works because of Nintendo not having any checks on anything like a few people have said, but past that there is still a lot of experimentation that's been done over the years (not by me obviously). However RBA is pretty stable, I don't really know of away to crash or lock the game using it, so RBA is caused entirely by Nintendo not having basic limitations on anything. Wrong warps on the other hand are way less stable and can crash pretty easily, but they've been tested extensively so that we can realistically use them.
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May 30, 2015 05:13
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Note that the lack of sanity checks in games from this era (and earlier) is super common. The devs assume that the values that a given bit of code operate on are going to be "safe" values, because where are they going to get unsafe values from? They don't know about the glitches, of course. Or if they do, then they figure that the vast majority of players will not encounter any glitches until well after they've finished their first, second, third, etc. playthrough, and at that point it hardly matters if they encounter problems. Game development is such a crazy business that the devs typically barely have time to fix the bugs that are actually readily-discoverable and have serious ramifications. They don't have the kind of resources to go after bugs that you have to be really trying to activate, that only sometimes cause bad effects, and that the bad effects are at worst softlocking. That's downright benign for a bug.
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May 30, 2015 05:20
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The way they arranged the memory in OoT was incredibly lucky from speedrunning perspective, especially when it comes to stuff like wrong warping, but the fact that the glitches work without crashing the whole game isn't really all that surprising in the end. Older games (and to be honest modern ones too), console games especially, were often written to just truck along and do their thing because it's simple and fast and they didn't have to account for varying hardware or anything. The game would run the same on all the machines, so as long as the debug team doesn't run into any problems, the consumers likely wouldn't either. Thanks, debug team.
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May 30, 2015 05:22
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Some of OoT's glitches will crash an N64 due to the hardware's memory limitations. They only work on the Gamecube because the system can handle it better.
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May 30, 2015 17:36
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