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Popular Thug Drink posted:fwiw seymour hersh is known for just making stuff up and attributing it to an anonymous source, it's like his thing
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May 12, 2015 18:34
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This is a pretty bad piece, and there seems to be no facts it can point to that are better explained by its theory of what happened. One thing in particular though that jumped out at me as especially stupid was this:quote:The retired official said there had been another complication: some members of the Seal team had bragged to colleagues and others that they had torn bin Laden’s body to pieces with rifle fire. The remains, including his head, which had only a few bullet holes in it, were thrown into a body bag and, during the helicopter flight back to Jalalabad, some body parts were tossed out over the Hindu Kush mountains – or so the Seals claimed. At the time, the retired official said, the Seals did not think their mission would be made public by Obama within a few hours: ‘If the president had gone ahead with the cover story, there would have been no need to have a funeral within hours of the killing. Once the cover story was blown, and the death was made public, the White House had a serious “Where’s the body?” problem. The world knew US forces had killed bin Laden in Abbottabad. Panic city. What to do? We need a “functional body” because we have to be able to say we identified bin Laden via a DNA analysis. It would be navy officers who came up with the “burial at sea” idea. Perfect. No body. Honourable burial following sharia law. Burial is made public in great detail, but Freedom of Information documents confirming the burial are denied for reasons of “national security”. It’s the classic unravelling of a poorly constructed cover story – it solves an immediate problem but, given the slighest inspection, there is no back-up support. There never was a plan, initially, to take the body to sea, and no burial of bin Laden at sea took place.’ The retired official said that if the Seals’ first accounts are to be believed, there wouldn’t have been much left of bin Laden to put into the sea in any case. This has a number of really, really obvious problems compared to the official story. 1) That people would boast about killing bin Laden was obvious. So, so obvious. The Seals involved in killing bin Laden would have to be really, really, really dumb not to know that Obama planned to take credit for it. Their commanders would have to be really, really, really dumb not to know that Obama would take credit for it, and tell them. Their commanders, likewise, all the way up the chain. It is absurd that anyone involved in the killing of Bin Laden would think that it would stay secret one second longer than it absolutely had to. 2) Hiding the body so it can never become a shrine has a long history, most notably with the Nazis. Burial at sea was an ideal plan and something people would come up with ahead of time: you dump it somewhere where it won't be found, and even if it's found you can't exactly visit. 3) Of course we loving identified the loving corpse by DNA analysis. If Jesus himself came down and told the army that it was bin Laden they'd just killed, they'd still have checked. This guy wants us to believe that a bunch of Seals, after going in and killing bin Laden, then just idly tossed his corpse out the loving window? I mean I have no problem believing the corpse was mangled, mutilated, whatever - but they wouldn't have thrown it out a loving window afterwards. You killed the most wanted man in the world, you're keeping the trophy, even if it's just his head. I mean look, you give everyone involved whatever bad, evil, whatever motivations you want and this still makes not one bit of sense. You would have to be a tremendous idiot to listen to this version of events and think "this sounds credible, while the burial at sea does not", but somehow Hearsh does.
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May 12, 2015 19:00
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More brain-scratching stupidity:quote:‘Why create the treasure trove story?’ the retired official said. ‘The White House had to give the impression that bin Laden was still operationally important. Otherwise, why kill him? A cover story was created – that there was a network of couriers coming and going with memory sticks and instructions. All to show that bin Laden remained important.’ Because the guy was responsible for 9/11, and the country would have celebrated just as hard if he'd actually been hiding in a cave eating nuts and out of communication and had zero chance of being any sort of threat ever again. I mean again, you can think that's morally wrong as some people have argued. But everyone was going to hoot and holler over his death anyway because he murdered three thousand Americans and no matter how wrong vengeance may be, it has a deep, emotional appeal that nobody is going to fail to appreciate.
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May 12, 2015 19:09
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Radicals only argument they gleaned from this was that Obama looks stupid for this because Pakistan fooled him, or something. It's really idiotic, and it's stupid people keep thinking there's fire amongst all the smoke in the conspiracy theory dominated Middle East. Trying to drum up an Obama scandal. Pathetic.
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May 12, 2015 20:36
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Nonsense posted:Radicals only argument they gleaned from this was that Obama looks stupid for this because Pakistan fooled him, or something. Isn't it a prelude to the "swift-boating"? Create enough confusion and smoke around a perceived strength until it becomes a weakness? Obviously not as crucial for Hillary's run, but beginning the process of discrediting the Obama administration's actions will diminsh the power of his endorsement or legacy on future races. The "Democrats bad at national security" meme has been an effective tool in the Republican arsenal.
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May 12, 2015 20:46
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I read (most) of that, and even if every single word of it was true (not a chance) my reaction is "so loving what?". Paki traded him to us for aid, under the agreement that we'd both pretend there was no agreement? Welcome to international relations 101. Legally, it's not very different from our drone program - you can't spin a wedding party into an "active combat situation" no matter how hard you try, so we've been doing targeted assassinations for far too long. I'm much more inclined to be angry at the drone program with it's massive collateral damage than a traditional wetwork operation like this.
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May 12, 2015 22:04
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bearic posted:Thank god SA is a bastion of sanity regarding this. A lot of people I've always respected and thought were really damned smart are defending this report on Twitter right and left (and tearing into Max Fisher for his really-really good debunk of it). Fisher found success writing intelligence-insulting listicles and divining AP English-level essays from Microsoft Excel charts. Currently he occupies the plum spot of chief Wikipedia rewriter at Vox, founded by his former Washington Post colleague and fellow milquetoast, Ezra Klein. Some might see these guys as fresh and edgy in their approach to the news, but in reality they are the Thomas Friedmans of my generation: Entitled, arrogant and, above all, clueless. http://coreypein.net/blog/2015/11/05/hersh-vox-bin-laden/
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May 12, 2015 22:54
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Xipe Totec posted:Fisher found success writing intelligence-insulting listicles and divining AP English-level essays from Microsoft Excel charts. Currently he occupies the plum spot of chief Wikipedia rewriter at Vox, founded by his former Washington Post colleague and fellow milquetoast, Ezra Klein. As someone who also thinks Vox and Ezra Klein are really lame, there's really no questioning some of the logic that Fisher mentions in his article (and various people have mentioned in this thread). There just isn't nearly enough hard evidence for the claims Hersh is trying to make here.
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May 12, 2015 23:38
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Ytlaya posted:As someone who also thinks Vox and Ezra Klein are really lame, there's really no questioning some of the logic that Fisher mentions in his article (and various people have mentioned in this thread). There just isn't nearly enough hard evidence for the claims Hersh is trying to make here. he does respond to the "logic", but its mostly about what vacuous, lazy & cowardly morons the Fishers of the world are. re: claims - "Hersh did not present his own skepticism as proof. Rather, he detailed the discrepancies of the official Bin Laden raid story in his own story to demonstrate that there was a clear basis to doubt the official account. Then, he supplied an alternative narrative based on sources he obtained who had knowledge of the situation. That’s investigative journalism. It begins with doubt. Fisher seems to reserve all of his doubt for Hersh. Does he have any left for the White House? The Pentagon? The CIA? It’s strange how explainer journalists like Fisher never betray a penchant for skepticism until some heretic like Hersh challenges what they think they know about the world."
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May 13, 2015 00:13
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Xipe Totec posted:he does respond to the "logic", but its mostly about what vacuous, lazy & cowardly morons the Fishers of the world are. You seem to reserve all your doubt for Fisher, what with your complaining about the fact that he works for Vox. I don't think it's unreasonable to be doubtful of a story based on someone who worked for ISI thirteen years ago and three anonymous sources.
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May 13, 2015 00:17
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Why lie about Mai Lai?
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May 13, 2015 00:31
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Xipe Totec posted:Fisher found success writing intelligence-insulting listicles and divining AP English-level essays from Microsoft Excel charts. Currently he occupies the plum spot of chief Wikipedia rewriter at Vox, founded by his former Washington Post colleague and fellow milquetoast, Ezra Klein. haha wow this corey pein guy has a stupendous and unwarranted case of arrogance, nice find
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May 13, 2015 00:35
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he's the kind of dude who has everything hunter s thompson ever wrote prominently displayed center eye level on one of his many dusty bookshelves
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May 13, 2015 00:36
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Popular Thug Drink posted:haha wow this corey pein guy has a stupendous and unwarranted case of arrogance, nice find Whoever he is he did a great job promoting that post because I've seen a whole bunch of people who I thought were smart posting it.
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May 13, 2015 00:36
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well all he has to do is be first out of the gate with such a niche and in demand article as "10 reasons vox's article on sy hersh proves max fisher is a big dumb doodoohead millenial" probably not a lot of bloggers itching to go toe to toe with loving vox, i think i've seen more anticipated throwdowns between sped kids in middle school gym
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May 13, 2015 00:38
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Xipe Totec posted:Fisher found success writing intelligence-insulting listicles and divining AP English-level essays from Microsoft Excel charts. Currently he occupies the plum spot of chief Wikipedia rewriter at Vox, founded by his former Washington Post colleague and fellow milquetoast, Ezra Klein. Truth is what ever you want it to be, post-modernism is the future. If you believe that Navy SEALS took a guided tour of the bin Laden compound to carve him into little chunks of meat with small arms fire somehow, and then threw those chunks out on the way home all so Pakistan and the United States could keep up an illusory diplomatic spat that harms both of their strategic objectives, well then that's your reality. That's your truth.
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May 13, 2015 00:41
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Badger of Basra posted:You seem to reserve all your doubt for Fisher, what with your complaining about the fact that he works for Vox. I don't think it's unreasonable to be doubtful of a story based on someone who worked for ISI thirteen years ago and three anonymous sources. lol what would look like Truth to you when we start talking about terrorism, assassination, money and power between US Pakistan and Saudi arabia?? how Reasonable would our discussion be if all our little blocks of truth werent handed out by authority figures for pits of harpies to scream them into acceptance?
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May 13, 2015 00:46
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Popular Thug Drink posted:haha wow this corey pein guy has a stupendous and unwarranted case of arrogance, nice find you didnt read a word because he made that joke about himself in the first few lines  its a very good read, maybe reconsider posting 5 lovely jokes in a row in future?
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May 13, 2015 00:49
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I'm not going to categorically defend Fisher; the time he thought there was a bridge between the West Bank and Gaza, for example, shows that he's capable of saying dumb things too. But Pein's attempt to downplay Hersh's past mistakes isn't doing it for me. Of course there are religious fanatics in the military. But secret members of Opus Dei in the top brass? Or is it the Knights of Malta? Hersh seems hazy on the distinction.
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May 13, 2015 01:03
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Xipe Totec posted:you didnt read a word because he made that joke about himself in the first few lines i didn't read a word past when that dude started holding up sheer contrarianism and distrust for authority as an unabashed virtue that's what conspiracy theorists do
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May 13, 2015 01:05
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like i'm old enough now to stop listening when someone's best argument is "that's what the MAN wants you to think!!!"
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May 13, 2015 01:06
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I feel like following the Opus Dei angle deeper, so he's another pro-Hersh piece: http://www.thenation.com/blog/207001/its-conspiracy-how-discredit-seymour-hershGreg Grandin posted:But here’s Steve Coll, a reporter who remains within the acceptable margins, writing in Ghost Wars about Reagan’s CIA director, William Casey: “He was a Catholic Knight of Malta educated by Jesuits. Statues of the Virgin Mary filled his mansion.… He attended Mass daily and urged Christian faith upon anyone who asked his advice…. He believed fervently that by spreading the Catholic church’s reach and power he could contain communism’s advance, or reverse it.” Oliver North, Casey’s Iran/Contra co-conspirator, worshiped at a “’charismatic’ Episcopalian church in Virginia called Church of the Apostles, which is organized into cell groups.” So part of the evidence of a Catholic conspiracy in the upper ranks of the US military, CIA, etc. is...that Oliver North was a devout Protestant.  Grandin's inability to distinguish between controversial claims and uncontroversial ones leads to similar confusion about the reaction to the Bin Laden story: Greg Grandin posted:Other sources likewise confirmed at least the broad outlines of Hersh’s counter-narrative, and as they did, the pushback against Hersh went, as Adam Johnson at FAIR put, from “this is a lie” to “what’s the big deal, we knew this all along” (everybody should follow Johnson’s twitter feed). Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 01:44 on May 13, 2015 |
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May 13, 2015 01:35
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Silver2195 posted:I'm not going to categorically defend Fisher; the time he thought there was a bridge between the West Bank and Gaza, for example, shows that he's capable of saying dumb things too. But Pein's attempt to downplay Hersh's past mistakes isn't doing it for me. Of course there are religious fanatics in the military. But secret members of Opus Dei in the top brass? Or is it the Knights of Malta? Hersh seems hazy on the distinction. it would be loverly to have a Reasonable examination of Hersh's
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May 13, 2015 01:41
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i am completely furious that anyone says anything bad about my main man seymour hersh
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May 13, 2015 01:43
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Silver2195 posted:I feel like following the Opus Dei angle deeper, so he's another pro-Hersh piece: http://www.thenation.com/blog/207001/its-conspiracy-how-discredit-seymour-hersh
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May 13, 2015 02:01
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Everyone who's trying to discredit Hersh w.r.t. the dumping body parts out of the helicopter has felt compelled to exaggerate by claiming he wrote that they dumped the whole body. I guess they felt the original claim just wasn't damning enough.
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May 13, 2015 03:06
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Davethulhu posted:It's an article of faith in "charismatic" churches that Catholics are cultists/satanists. I know that; I'm saying Grandin doesn't know what he's talking about.
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May 13, 2015 03:09
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Harik posted:I read (most) of that, and even if every single word of it was true (not a chance) my reaction is "so loving what?". Paki traded him to us for aid, under the agreement that we'd both pretend there was no agreement? Welcome to international relations 101. The drone program and the bin Laden killing are both legal, correct.
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May 13, 2015 03:27
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Hersh constantly reminds today's journalists of the joke the industry has become, it's pretty natural they'd view him with derision and want to take him down.
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May 13, 2015 06:53
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Flocons de Jambon posted:Everyone who's trying to discredit Hersh w.r.t. the dumping body parts out of the helicopter has felt compelled to exaggerate by claiming he wrote that they dumped the whole body. I guess they felt the original claim just wasn't damning enough. I'm not surprised some readers are confused, it naturally follow the speculation on the need for a "functional body." What struck me however, is the source for that quote appears to be speculating, like the theory is coming third hand. No alternative theory for how the remains were disposed of is offered, and I don't understand the justifications given for faking a sea burial. Why do you need a "functional body" for DNA analysis? His hair or blood should be adequate. If his body was dismembered, why would that change the calculus around releasing pictures? I don't understand the narrative of the article. I find the habit of using second and third hand sources for everything extremely disconcerting, it just doesn't seem like a reliable source of evidence
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May 13, 2015 07:20
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It's nice to see D&D and the establishment media gaining some skepticism of stories based on minimal or anonymous sources. Shame about it always being applied in one direction though.
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May 13, 2015 08:14
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Harik posted:I read (most) of that, and even if every single word of it was true (not a chance) my reaction is "so loving what?". Paki traded him to us for aid, under the agreement that we'd both pretend there was no agreement? Welcome to international relations 101. The "so what" is that (and this section of the story at least has been independently substantiated) Pakistan knew where public enemy number one was and were harboring him for years, without telling us. Wasn't that the grounds for the invasion of Afghanistan? Pakistan didn't let us know, a breakaway officer did. The "so what" is also that the US government knew his location for at least some significant length of time and did not act. The "so what" is that they released a kettle of lies and slapped them into a pro-torture propaganda film. Related to that, the last "so what" is that we have more evidence that all the torturing we did was pointless.
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May 13, 2015 08:20
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Carlotta Gall weighs in on the story, saying she also had heard that bin Laden was being kept by the ISI as an intel asset and that a defector outed him. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/12/magazine/the-detail-in-seymour-hershs-bin-laden-story-that-rings-true.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0
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May 13, 2015 10:05
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Rand alPaul posted:Hersh constantly reminds today's journalists of the joke the industry has become, it's pretty natural they'd view him with derision and want to take him down. Oh rubbish, Hersh has gone from investigative reporter to conspiracy theorist (remember when he said the Syrians gassed themselves). He's derided because he deserves it these days.
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May 13, 2015 15:47
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MothraAttack posted:Carlotta Gall weighs in on the story, saying she also had heard that bin Laden was being kept by the ISI as an intel asset and that a defector outed him. I don't doubt that. What calls into question Hersch's entire story is his "THE TROOPS GIBBED OBL FOR THE BLOOD GOD OF WAR!" And also what was said above, he's Assad's water carrier and he should feel lucky he's not in Guantanamo.
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May 13, 2015 16:22
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MothraAttack posted:Carlotta Gall weighs in on the story, saying she also had heard that bin Laden was being kept by the ISI as an intel asset and that a defector outed him. The first part has been widely suspected ever since the operation because of where he was. It's just that you can't officially declare Pakistan knew where he was without politics essentially forcing relations down to one step removed from open war. The tacit deal seems to be that we will ignore that Pakistan almost certainly knew where he was, and Pakistan will ignore (to the extent possible) that we conducted a military raid deep in their territory without bothering to tell them. It is deeply unsatisfying and less than honest with the public, but it's not like anyone is fooled. It's just one of those diplomatic things where everyone pretends to ignore reality in order to get along.
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May 13, 2015 16:30
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evilweasel posted:It is deeply unsatisfying and less than honest with the public, but it's not like anyone is fooled. http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=binladen.htm
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May 13, 2015 16:54
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That doesn't really say that Pakistan didn't know, unless there's part of that movie I forgot. That's about if there was a defector vs. tracking a courier. edit: to be clear I meant just the first part (that Pakistan knew), not the defector part.
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May 13, 2015 16:58
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Squalid posted:I'm not surprised some readers are confused, it naturally follow the speculation on the need for a "functional body." What struck me however, is the source for that quote appears to be speculating, like the theory is coming third hand. No alternative theory for how the remains were disposed of is offered, and I don't understand the justifications given for faking a sea burial. Why do you need a "functional body" for DNA analysis? His hair or blood should be adequate. If his body was dismembered, why would that change the calculus around releasing pictures? I don't understand the narrative of the article. According to the narrative Hersh has put together the need for a functional body was the result of the raid going wrong. If that helicopter hadn't crashed they were just going to claim they killed him in a drone strike, which might not leave a corpse, and would let the Pakistani's save face. The DNA testing isn't germane because Hersh says they already confirmed it with his doctor. But if you just shoot a guy, especially an unarmed man who isn't resisting, why wouldn't there be a body? And you know a reporter is going to ask about it. If his body was dismembered, it will be hard to claim there was any attempt to capture him alive, and this is an assassination, not an attempt to capture, something the White House initially claimed.
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May 13, 2015 16:59
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Flocons de Jambon posted:According to the narrative Hersh has put together the need for a functional body was the result of the raid going wrong. If that helicopter hadn't crashed they were just going to claim they killed him in a drone strike, which might not leave a corpse, and would let the Pakistani's save face. The DNA testing isn't germane because Hersh says they already confirmed it with his doctor. There is no chance that when it comes to Osama they weren't going to verify the DNA of the corpse, no matter what verification happened earlier, no matter what the plan was. This is such a stupid claim by Hersh that it really invalidates what he's saying. Everything he's saying is based on his word because his sources are anonymous, so our only real way of testing it is verifying the plausibility of what he's saying, and this is so ridiculously implausible even on a casual review that it makes it clear there wasn't any critical thought going into Hersh's checking of what he was supposedly told.
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May 13, 2015 17:04
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