|
i liked the claim that the elite special operatives had so much pent up fury at OBL that they destroyed his corpse with unnecessary fire like frustrated children shooting aluminum cans in the backyard
|
#
?
May 13, 2015 17:10
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 12:38 |
|
|
evilweasel posted:There is no chance that when it comes to Osama they weren't going to verify the DNA of the corpse, no matter what verification happened earlier, no matter what the plan was. Fine, Hirsh isn't claiming they didn't. He passes on three accounts, one of which included a rumour that some of the body parts were tossed out of a helicopter. Maybe just his balls, or a finger, who knows! I doubt they were able to confirm his identity by DNA in the time between killing him and announcing it though.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2015 17:11
|
|
|
Flocons de Jambon posted:Fine, Hirsh isn't claiming they didn't. He passes on three accounts, one of which included a rumour that some of the body parts were tossed out of a helicopter. Maybe just his balls, or a finger, who knows! Machines existed that could do it in four hours existed in 2010: http://www.gizmag.com/rapid-dna-testing/15950/ edit: 90m in 2013: http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865576611/New-DNA-testing-could-take-hours-not-weeks.html?pg=all I have no doubt that whatever they needed to confirm the results as fast as possible was present. Like, under any of the theories you still need to be very, very sure you got the right guy. Hell, especially under Hersh's theory where Pakistan is involved - if they were keeping him that long they might try to sell you a pig in a poke.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2015 17:20
|
|
|
Popular Thug Drink posted:i liked the claim that the elite special operatives had so much pent up fury at OBL that they destroyed his corpse with unnecessary fire like frustrated children shooting aluminum cans in the backyard I don't see why you consider that particular claim so implausible.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2015 17:22
|
|
|
Tezzor posted:I don't see why you consider that particular claim so implausible. because it's dumb and sounds made up
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2015 17:23
|
|
|
when US police can open up and empty rounds upon rounds of ammunition into unarmed citizens, I don't think soldiers with assault weapons tearing bin laden - the organiser of the largest terrorist act perpetrated on American soil - apart is particularly far fetched.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2015 18:01
|
|
|
If there's one thing that elite special ops dudes and dumbass cops have in common it's their complete lack of fire discipline.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2015 18:15
|
|
|
Sure the average person had a bitter desire for vengeance against Osama bin Laden to the point that they were hooting and dancing by the thousands when he was confirmed assassinated, but these guys are Elite Special Ops, and more akin to the noble samurai training in front of a waterfall than the kind of emotionally disturbed grabasses who usually become career soldiers, and it's unthinkable that they might engage in some kind of excessive use of force when they merely wanted to, felt justified in doing so, and would never in a million years be punished.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2015 18:42
|
|
|
3/10 not your best effort
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2015 18:51
|
|
|
Tezzor posted:I don't see why you consider that particular claim so implausible. Because, it's surprisingly a chore to tear a person apart using only gunfire, you have to specifically aim for certain parts of the body and it could be dangerous if you miss and end up having a bullet ricochet around the room. A much more likely scenario would be having someone shoot him once and the rest of the team taking out their knives and carving him up.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2015 18:53
|
|
|
JeffersonClay posted:If there's one thing that elite special ops dudes and dumbass cops have in common it's their complete lack of fire discipline. Well, this is what the dude who shot him said he did: quote:“I saw Osama bin Laden standing on two feet, there were no [Inter-Services Intelligence] up there. I shot him in the head twice, and then I shot him again in the face while he was on the ground.” And this is what the other dude who apparently also shot him says he did: quote:“In his death throes, he was still twitching and convulsing,” he wrote about Bin Laden. “Another assaulter and I trained our lasers on his chest and fired several rounds.” And from that same article, here's what some other people who were involved have to say about the other other guy who apparently also shot him: quote:But other military officials and SEALs took issue with Mr. O’Neill’s account. They credited the unidentified point man, who is still a member of the secret unit, with severely wounding or even killing Bin Laden before other SEALs fired. A former commander of SEAL Team 6 said in an interview that he believed Mr. O’Neill fired “insurance” rounds into Bin Laden’s body, after he was down. Unless somebody's either severely mistaken or lying, it sounds to me like there were an awful lot of bullets flying into various sectors of bin Laden's anatomy that night, regardless of how disciplined everyone was being. Also, you'd think that discipline might extend to not scrambling to the media to brag about how you were totally the guy who wasted bin Laden. Not that that would tear up his body in the way that was described or anything. I just think it's funny that it seems like everyone on that team was going out of their way to get a crack at him. Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 18:56 on May 13, 2015 |
|
#
?
May 13, 2015 18:54
|
|
|
The issue isn't "were multiple shots fired". It's "were so many fired that the body was ruined and/or in pieces" which is an order of magnitude or two more than you're discussing. I wouldn't at all be surprised with several or even like ten extra shots, but a bunch of guys going all rambo on a corpse while rather deep inside Pakistan is...more surprising.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2015 18:57
|
|
|
I doubt several shooters congregated around and proceeded to unload magazine after magazine into the prone body and into the floors of the house below. It's actually very unpleasant and disorienting to fire a full-auto rifle in a confined space, especially at night, (even suppressed weapons). Maybe they dragged him outside first? Well, at close range 5.56mm will over penetrate (I assume even with subsonic ammo? somebody check me on this) and won't create the big exit wounds characteristic of rifle rounds. A "through and through" wound caused by a larger 7.62x39mm round:  It's possible with enough deliberate massed fire to saw off limbs especially considering how bone tends to splinter. It would also be very dangerious because you would get ricochets off rocks and the inner walls of the compound edit: tl/dr mikemil828 posted:Because, it's surprisingly a chore to tear a person apart using only gunfire, you have to specifically aim for certain parts of the body and it could be dangerous if you miss and end up having a bullet ricochet around the room. A much more likely scenario would be having someone shoot him once and the rest of the team taking out their knives and carving him up. Dilkington fucked around with this message at 23:19 on May 13, 2015 |
|
#
?
May 13, 2015 19:05
|
|
|
I know it's easy to scoff at the idea but I've had a lot of combat training and even the elite will get too much adrenaline after rocket jumping into a room and may fire more rockets than necessary, resulting in the gibs going all over the place.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2015 19:08
|
|
|
Tezzor posted:I don't see why you consider that particular claim so implausible. SF members are trained pretty heavily to not waste ammo on missions so they never run out so It would be more plausible if they captured him alive and made him walk the plank tbh. Reading through the account, it seems like to me the former ISI chief where all this information is coming from is (a) trying to make the ISI look better by saying that the ISI had captured OBL and was holding him as a bargaining chip instead of him being under their nose or operating from his compound with their knowledge (b) trying to discredit Obama and the competence / capabilities of the US military... which would be a surprise to literally no if they've paid any attention to how ISI operates. There is some pretty serious truth to a lot of what probably happened, and things like the walk in happening and the courier story being made up to cover for it is more than likely true, but there is a ton in that story that reeks of bullshit. For one, if ISI was actually holding OBL it would mean they had a ton of operatives that knew where he was and along with local military commanders having to be told to clear the airspace and not respond you're looking at a fairly large group of people that know the truth and not one of them spilled the beans until 4 years later with only one actually coming forward. Second, those were not standard black hawks as the story claims which is proven by the stealth modifications that can be seen from pictures of the crash with a simple google image search. Third, yes the seal team would have absolutely destroyed as much of the the crashed helicopter as possible since our stealth tech (especially the ECM stuff) is a very closely guarded secret, and they would have absolutely took off in the remaining helicopter without much problem instead of waiting for a chinook. Fourth, the US had operated drones inside Pakistan for years so it's likely that they told ISI there was a drone crossing the border instead of the raid so the airspace would be clear as opposed to ISI telling local commanders to clear the airspace because they knew the raid to kill OBL was coming. Fifth, Abbottabad as the story claims is a resort town filled with rich people which means it's really rare for gunfire to be heard, so any raid would have been reported and investigated which means the "drone strike killing OBL" would be known to be bullshit. About the only things I trust from this story is that it was a walk in that provided the information and that the CIA's torture of detainees didn't lead to poo poo when it came to finding OBL, neither of which changes the overall narrative of what actually happened in the raid.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2015 19:11
|
|
|
The ISI arresting everyone who allegedly helped the CIA, after the raid sure gives the appearance of a cooperative effort between the US and Pakistan. Never mind trying to charge the Doctor who did the walk-in with loving treason.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2015 19:31
|
|
|
Bolow posted:The ISI arresting everyone who allegedly helped the CIA, after the raid sure gives the appearance of a cooperative effort between the US and Pakistan. Never mind trying to charge the Doctor who did the walk-in with loving treason. I think it is entirely plausible that the ISI is spreading the "We were totally working with the US and Bin Laden was our asset" line because the alternative is that the ISI was either incompetent or corrupt.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2015 19:52
|
|
|
The notion that torture didn't provide poo poo is ancient news, though. Like, Senators were criticizing that claim since the get go. We know that the CIA was saying that the torture worked in order to justify that program, and they provided that info to Bigelow so that she could push their narrative, but linking that "revelation" to the more outlandish claims makes that claim look loony as well.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2015 20:43
|
|
|
Flocons de Jambon posted:
Obama probably would have gotten an extra +5% approval rating for gibbing the dude. The initial claims were that he died in a firefight, which could easily explain any condition issues with the body. Obama took a decent amount of criticism at the time for the burial, as it was seen as too respectful. One of Hersh's sources doesn't seem to dispute the sea burial, but just claims it could have been performed to cover up the body condition. I still don't understand the motive behind this particular cover up, it might make more sense had the claims been split between two or three more focused articles.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2015 00:01
|
|
|
Squalid posted:The initial claims were that he died in a firefight, which could easily explain any condition issues with the body. Only to people who've gotten all their gun knowledge from video games.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2015 00:05
|
|
|
Series DD Funding posted:Only to people who've gotten all their gun knowledge from video games. No, you see, the special ops team had their rage meter filled, so they had temporary flaming explosive bullets.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2015 00:11
|
|
|
One of the SEALs took bloody mess as a perk when he was lower ranking. It's a flat damage increase, how can you turn that down?
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2015 00:13
|
|
|
It's pretty spurious to suggest a 78-year-old journalist had his perception of bullet wounds shifted by CoD.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2015 00:35
|
|
|
josh04 posted:It's pretty spurious to suggest a 78-year-old journalist had his perception of bullet wounds shifted by CoD. Magic Bullets. Whole magazines of 'em. Each bullet is a tiny computer controlled rocketship. Nanotechnology. Anonymous sources and retired professors have assured me the military has the technology.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2015 00:53
|
|
|
In the conception of beltway consensus and the minds of D&D posters who worship it, it's normal and expected to hold strong beliefs based on the say-so of anonymous sources with no visible evidence when we're talking about trivialities like the immediate need to assassinate an American citizen without a trial, but conversely believing anonymous sources is the height of hilarity when we're talking about ridiculous conspiracies like US troops mangled bin Laden's corpse
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2015 02:35
|
|
|
Tezzor posted:In the conception of beltway consensus and the minds of D&D posters who worship it, it's normal and expected to hold strong beliefs based on the say-so of anonymous sources with no visible evidence when we're talking about trivialities like the immediate need to assassinate an American citizen without a trial, but conversely believing anonymous sources is the height of hilarity when we're talking about ridiculous conspiracies like US troops mangled bin Laden's corpse Hmm I've never thought of it that way.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2015 02:40
|
|
|
Tezzor posted:talking about trivialities like the immediate need to assassinate an American citizen without a trial Or in the US it has always been legal precedent that the State has the right to terminate individuals who are problematic. There's a sinister edge in anglo politics, because all political decisions are of life and death. You might think the edge is that of an executioner's blade, but I couldn't possibly comment.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2015 02:51
|
|
|
Tezzor posted:In the conception of beltway consensus and the minds of D&D posters who worship it, it's normal and expected to hold strong beliefs based on the say-so of anonymous sources with no visible evidence when we're talking about trivialities like the immediate need to assassinate an American citizen without a trial, but conversely believing anonymous sources is the height of hilarity when we're talking about ridiculous conspiracies like US troops mangled bin Laden's corpse Ok sure... but that fails to account for one very crucial element. Why would SEALS mangle the corpse of someone they killed? Regular solders or reservists I can totally buy turning a body into hamburger before an officer noticed and stopped them, but soldiers that are widely considered to be the highest trained ones in the world don't do poo poo like make ear necklaces or mangle bodies because they're hulking out on adrenaline, especially when a great deal of their training revolves around not letting emotions/adrenaline dictate their actions.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2015 02:54
|
|
|
I don't have problem necessarily with using anonymous sources, but they ought at least to be authoritative... sometimes the sources in the article don't even claim to have special knowledge and are repeating rumors they heard elsewhere rather than sharing specific details of which they had special knowledge. Series DD Funding posted:Only to people who've gotten all their gun knowledge from video games. the plausibility of this detail has already been covered well in this thread. Assuming for the sake of argument that it did happen, why would the government hide the fact?
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2015 03:08
|
|
|
A Winner is Jew posted:Ok sure... but that fails to account for one very crucial element. The why is that your conception of the professionalism of "elite" US troops is based on basically nothing and countermanded by numerous examples of those same troops being deranged macho shitheads. There's also the specifics of the situation. I'm not sure I believe Hersh's account, but I am more likely to believe that they used excessive force on bin Laden than they would a random insurgent.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2015 04:17
|
|
|
josh04 posted:It's pretty spurious to suggest a 78-year-old journalist had his perception of bullet wounds shifted by CoD. Then he was only 63 when Soldier of Fortune came out. Or 49 when Chiller came out.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2015 04:34
|
|
|
Could these men who shoot men shoot this man? Yes Could these men who shoot men shoot this man a lot? Sure Could these men who shoot men shoot this man more than a lot? Absolutely out of the question. These men are professionals, the most exquisitely trained force the world has ever seen. Anything written containing this suggestion, even if it acknowledges it as a rumour, must be made up of nothing but lies.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2015 04:54
|
|
|
Tezzor posted:In the conception of beltway consensus and the minds of D&D posters who worship it, it's normal and expected to hold strong beliefs based on the say-so of anonymous sources with no visible evidence when we're talking about trivialities like the immediate need to assassinate an American citizen without a trial, but conversely believing anonymous sources is the height of hilarity when we're talking about ridiculous conspiracies like US troops mangled bin Laden's corpse I could totally believe they shot him to pieces. I'm just having trouble with the Pakistan's trade with Obama. This was so embarrassing for the ISI; I just can't imagine them letting the US fly its helicopters in when they could have just quietly transferred him and the Americans could make up whatever story they wanted.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2015 05:10
|
|
|
22 caliber bullets aren't especially large.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2015 05:13
|
|
|
Flocons de Jambon posted:Could these men who shoot men shoot this man? I think people are taking issue with the suggestion that the body was rendered into a bag of chunks, which isn't possible with rifles unless they took the time to meticulously disjoint his corpse with bullets, and it just doesn't make sense that they'd take the time to do that, no matter how gung-ho to shoot him up they were.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2015 05:20
|
|
|
I find it bizarre that people actually think the SEALS would expend such a large quantity of ammunition while in such a precarious spot on shooting up a dead body.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2015 05:28
|
|
|
Flocons de Jambon posted:Absolutely out of the question. These men are professionals, the most exquisitely trained force the world has ever seen. Anything written containing this suggestion, even if it acknowledges it as a rumour, must be made up of nothing but lies. it is silly to assume that professionals doing one of the most important jobs of their career would purposely do a bad job in a dangerous way out of anger. to claim such indicates a lack of understanding as to how humans behave i don't see why it's within the realm of possibility to assume that the most highly trained soldiers in the us military would gib a corpse because of emotions, but that it's unquestionable that an old man who made his glory telling implausible stories that turn out to be well substantiated would go around telling implausible stories without evidence boner confessor fucked around with this message at 05:37 on May 14, 2015 |
|
#
?
May 14, 2015 05:34
|
|
|
Well for one Hersh has told implausible stories that turn out to be not substantiated a number of times recently.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2015 05:42
|
|
|
Bip Roberts posted:Well for one Hersh has told implausible stories that turn out to be not substantiated a number of times recently. why do you hate investigative journalists
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2015 05:45
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 12:38 |
|
|
People are taking issue with the wording of a third hand characterization of how shot up bin Laden was while still admitting "Sure, I bet they shot him a lot, but..." There might be some overlap in the amount of damage done to a human body that is described third hand as "torn to pieces" or leaving "not much left" and the amount of damage done by people who admit to shooting him multiple times. It's absurd.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2015 05:47
|
|