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Cnut the Great posted:I was always a little confused by that part. Would it have been at all likely that bin Laden would have been wearing a suicide vest? I mean, as far as he knew, it was just a normal night for him chilling in his mansion. Was the idea that he'd have an emergency suicide vest lying around on stand-by for just such a situation? I mean, it just seems like a weird thing to have your soldiers assume a priori, unless your intention was explicitly that this was an assassination mission. Basically yes, the assumption was it was possible for him to have one handy in the event his compound was attacked -on the nightstand or something - which when he heard gunfire or the like he'd put on. It's not an unreasonable assumption - if he had a choice between being captured and suicide with the chance of taking some Americans down with him, he'd probably chose the latter. He'd definitely be paranoid of an attack: he was the most wanted man in the world, after all. It does not appear to have been the case that he had one. I don't think they assumed it was a sure thing or even likely had one, but considered it possible enough to consider.
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May 14, 2015 21:31
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| # ? Apr 23, 2024 21:09 |
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if pakistan gave the US permission to fly in, why not just dump bin laden at a us base in afghanistan and save everyone the loving trouble? then no one gets publicly embarrassed. oh yeah, because hersh's story makes no loving sense
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May 14, 2015 21:35
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Series DD Funding posted:Why exactly were the seals supposed to sign an NDA afterwards if the mission could've easily been classified? This is the most obvious giveaway that the whole story is BS by someone too stupid to even come up with a good lie. Because they're in the military you can just order them to not talk, and it will have more legal force than any NDA you could make up. And you can classify the operation, which makes publicizing any of it another federal crime on top of that. The whole thing is super, super dumb.
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May 14, 2015 21:42
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sean10mm posted:This is the most obvious giveaway that the whole story is BS by someone too stupid to even come up with a good lie. Because they're in the military you can just order them to not talk, and it will have more legal force than any NDA you could make up. And you can classify the operation, which makes publicizing any of it another federal crime on top of that. That, plus anyone with a security clearance ( and all SEALS would have one) is already bound by the rules for classified information, generally found on the SF-312 you get when you receive your clearance and sign. An additional NDA would be superfluous.
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May 14, 2015 21:49
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Kiryen posted:That, plus anyone with a security clearance ( and all SEALS would have one) is already bound by the rules for classified information, generally found on the SF-312 you get when you receive your clearance and sign. An additional NDA would be superfluous. Yeah, but SEALS would totally just ignore things being classified because they're all deranged macho shitheads. 
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May 14, 2015 22:38
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Concerned Citizen posted:if pakistan gave the US permission to fly in, why not just dump bin laden at a us base in afghanistan and save everyone the loving trouble? then no one gets publicly embarrassed. That's literally what Hersh's story claims, minus a few body parts.
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May 14, 2015 22:53
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evilweasel posted:Not quite. The White House said that if he surrendered they would have taken him alive. It is doubtful that's true. However nothing I saw indicated that they said their goal was to take him alive: instead they merely said if he was clearly not a threat and surrendered they wouldn't have killed him anyway. It's doubtful they would have because of the possibility of a suicide vest, as well as that everything is much, much easier with Osama as a corpse instead of a prisoner who creates all sorts of problems (do you try him in the criminal courts, military tribunal, does it create a terror threat, does it give him a platform, do you torture him, etc). And if you consider him a combatant (lawful or unlawful) it is perfectly legal to attempt to kill him - it's just a violation of numerous international laws and US military law to kill him after he surrenders. Obama's speech from the night of the raid. quote:I directed Leon Panetta, the director of the CIA, to make the killing or capture of bin Laden the top priority of our war against al Qaeda quote:And finally, last week, I determined that we had enough intelligence to take action, and authorized an operation to get Osama bin Laden and bring him to justice.
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May 14, 2015 22:54
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Flocons de Jambon posted:Obama's speech from the night of the raid. and? you're interpreting "we'll try to get him if we can" as "the fact that we didn't get him indicates we lied" next try and explain why "pull it" actually means controlled demolition
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May 14, 2015 23:02
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Flocons de Jambon posted:Obama's speech from the night of the raid.
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May 14, 2015 23:08
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The Larch posted:And we did, in fact, get him. "[O]ne thing I tell them is 'All right, Osama bin Laden died like a pussy. That's all I'm telling you. Just so you know. He died afraid. And he knew that we were there to kill him.'"
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May 14, 2015 23:10
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quote:"We were prepared to capture him if that was possible," White House spokesman Jay Carney said. But even though bin Laden was not carrying a weapon, Carney said he had "resisted" and several people in the compound were armed and firing at the American special operators. The most professional fighting force the world has ever seen tried to capture the 55 year old man, but was thwarted by a berserker charge from his wife. In fairness, her jam-jams could've been covering a suicide vest. That's a common concern. When reached for comment The President of the United States shrugged off concerns. "Osama got got"
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May 14, 2015 23:20
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Flocons de Jambon posted:That's literally what Hersh's story claims, minus a few body parts. Er, it's nothing at all what Hersh claims. The story Hersh is spinning is that the US, having found out that the ISI is sheltering bin Laden under house arrest in Abbattobad, threatens to cut aid to Pakistan unless they allow the US to kill bin Laden. And then there is a very elaborate operation to kill a man who is, supposedly, a sickly invalid. But it makes no sense. The claim is that the operation was to be kept secret so that Pakistan could save face. Why did the US fly in using a secret stealth helicopter? Why not just load OBL into a helicopter and fly him into Afghanistan, where he would be picked up by US special forces? Then Pakistan isn't embarrassed and no risky operation in a friendly country is needed. Hersh's version is like the most convoluted possible method of dealing with the situation.
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May 14, 2015 23:21
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It's so crazy it must be true!
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May 14, 2015 23:24
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Concerned Citizen posted:Er, it's nothing at all what Hersh claims. The story Hersh is spinning is that the US, having found out that the ISI is sheltering bin Laden under house arrest in Abbattobad, threatens to cut aid to Pakistan unless they allow the US to kill bin Laden. And then there is a very elaborate operation to kill a man who is, supposedly, a sickly invalid. But it makes no sense. The claim is that the operation was to be kept secret so that Pakistan could save face. I thought you meant "dump" as in dump the body in Afghanistan. Which is what one of the sources says happened.
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May 14, 2015 23:25
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Concerned Citizen posted:Er, it's nothing at all what Hersh claims. The story Hersh is spinning is that the US, having found out that the ISI is sheltering bin Laden under house arrest in Abbattobad, threatens to cut aid to Pakistan unless they allow the US to kill bin Laden. And then there is a very elaborate operation to kill a man who is, supposedly, a sickly invalid. But it makes no sense. The claim is that the operation was to be kept secret so that Pakistan could save face. Might be he wasn't really under house arrest? Maybe he was being sheltered by sympathetic people in the ISI, and the concern was that if they didn't move fast, they'd take him out of the country? Pakistan's in a bad position, but letting the US come in takes care of the mess. This would fit broad strokes of the Hersh and White House narrative, and also explain the "treasure trove." From a purely political standpoint, this is fantastic for conservatives. Even if the whole story is bullshit, the OBL killing has been reduced from a strong liberal talking point to a heated debate.
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May 14, 2015 23:34
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vseslav.botkin posted:Might be he wasn't really under house arrest? Maybe he was being sheltered by sympathetic people in the ISI, and the concern was that if they didn't move fast, they'd take him out of the country? Pakistan's in a bad position, but letting the US come in takes care of the mess. This would fit broad strokes of the Hersh and White House narrative, and also explain the "treasure trove." That's the thing, though. The US has always suspected that at least some elements of the ISI knew that bin Laden was there. You can find speculation about it from anonymous sources in the news from day one. That's part of the reason why US military aid for Pakistan has essentially ended. However, there is a big difference between knowing where bin Laden is and not telling the US and actively sheltering him. And there's an even bigger difference between that and what Hersh is claiming - that he was not only sheltered, but actually kept under house arrest to use as a bargaining chip with al-Qaeda, who evidently cared so much about OBL's fate (even though, supposedly, he was no longer leading al-Qaeda and was actually a sickly invalid) that they were willing to not carry out operations against Pakistan to prevent OBL from being handed over to the Americans. In fact, the fact that Pakistan might have known where bin Laden was happened to be part of the reason that the US went in without informing Pakistan's military. The fear was that he would be tipped off and leave before the US got there.
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May 14, 2015 23:49
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The Imam chanted the final cantos, and the rites were complete. A moment of silence followed as the crew of the USS Carl Vinson watched the strange ceremony end. Quiet like this was unsettling on the flight deck of a Nimitz class supercarrier. When the body started beeping, every sailor could hear as the beeps increased in frequency. The Imam looked down and saw glowing numbers through the funeral shroud. A countdown! "Suicide Vest! Abandon ship!"
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May 14, 2015 23:51
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this defensive tactic of taking your opponents criticism to absurd extremes would be more effective if you were opposing the unnecessarily complex conspiracy theory rather than supporting it you're just coming off as desperate. but don't stop, it's kind of funny
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May 14, 2015 23:53
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Flocons de Jambon posted:The most professional fighting force the world has ever seen tried to capture the 55 year old man, but was thwarted by a berserker charge from his wife. Yeah he did.
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May 14, 2015 23:57
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e:wait, no. The original conspiracy theory is that ISI agents tipped off the CIA during W's second term and they never told the Bush administration because they didn't want him to take credit. In the original story, the CIA gets as much information on Al Qaeda as they can, then the raid occurs. That poo poo in the OP is just a bunch of TLDR lies that sound like my fake Marine dad came up with it. Why the gently caress would they make the SEALs sign an NDA? that's just retarded. Big Hubris fucked around with this message at 23:15 on May 15, 2015 |
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May 15, 2015 08:43
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| # ? Apr 23, 2024 21:09 |
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So they exagerrated a simple execution of a senile old man into a hollywood firefight? Lmao That he was being sheltered isn't as important as there not being any real blowback for the ISI and Pakistan for sheltering him - the cozy relationship between the Warriors On Terror and one of the slimiest terrorist sponsoring agencies in the world is hypocritical and pathetic.
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May 15, 2015 13:23
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