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I think a lot of the misogyny and hypermachismo you see in gamer/nerd culture is a desire not to be seen as feminine. In real life, a lot of people who get categorized as nerds are often ridiculed for being unathletic, for being uninterested in sports, for being weak or small, or any number of other traits that are often identified as "feminine". In their desire to assert themselves as "not a girl", and aided by the anonymity of places like 4chan, they go way too far in the other direction. People who argue with their bombastic, MRA-style rhetoric only cause them to dig in more because they perceive criticism as an attack on their manhood rather than as constructive feedback. It's a perfect storm of human beings with a completely diminished ego and a powerful drive to go defensive immediately when criticized.
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May 14, 2015 16:29
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yeah, that's a good read. you may not be the most athletic dude irl, or the one the ladies swoon over, but by god online you're the biggest dude on the block
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May 14, 2015 17:23
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LeftistMuslimObama posted:I think a lot of the misogyny and hypermachismo you see in gamer/nerd culture is a desire not to be seen as feminine. In real life, a lot of people who get categorized as nerds are often ridiculed for being unathletic, for being uninterested in sports, for being weak or small, or any number of other traits that are often identified as "feminine". In their desire to assert themselves as "not a girl", and aided by the anonymity of places like 4chan, they go way too far in the other direction. People who argue with their bombastic, MRA-style rhetoric only cause them to dig in more because they perceive criticism as an attack on their manhood rather than as constructive feedback. It's a perfect storm of human beings with a completely diminished ego and a powerful drive to go defensive immediately when criticized. Ian Winthorpe III posted:Likewise, the progressive and feminist impulse that once agitated for freedom of expression and collective liberation now sounds censorious, joyless and addicted to the narcissism of small difference. *Drinks sternly from a cup of men's tears*
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May 14, 2015 19:55
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LeftistMuslimObama posted:In real life, a lot of people who get categorized as nerds are often ridiculed for being unathletic, for being uninterested in sports, for being weak or small, or any number of other traits that are often identified as "feminine". In their desire to assert themselves as "not a girl", and aided by the anonymity of places like 4chan, they go way too far in the other direction. Great point. Some people react to the realization that they're "different" from their imagined cultural ideal by doubling down with the system that is *supposed* to be right or benefit them (in their mind). That's how you get things like anti-gay republicans with grindr profiles, or women who "aren't like those other bitches". Or, in this case, guys who viciously defend what little power they have online to avoid the perceived threat of losing it. It's self defeating, but culture is so psychologically powerful that this reaction is hard to resist. The question now is: how can we remove people from this cycle, or help prevent it in the first place? I think that education could be really useful for prevention, especially since these social processes begin in childhood/adolescence. More information gives people more flexibility in dealing with their identity.
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May 14, 2015 20:07
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4chaners MRAs and other basement dwellers resent and envy women for their socially acceptable infantilization.
Miltank fucked around with this message at 21:01 on May 14, 2015 |
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May 14, 2015 20:59
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goatse.cx posted:I cherish my freedom of speech and i will combat any attempt to abrogate it no matter what some idiots on twitter or 4chan say.
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May 14, 2015 21:17
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Ian Winthorpe III posted:Addicted to the narcissism of small difference. I really like that description - it really works for either side of the extremes we're currently seeing.
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May 14, 2015 21:31
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People who spend most of their time on forums try to analyze why some other people spend all of their time on other forums and call them shut-ins. 
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May 14, 2015 21:44
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Luminous Obscurity posted:Something I find interesting is the similarities between gamer/nerd culture and US army culture. Men's insecurities play defining roles in each and you can see the same sort of high school PTSD and fear of women from both camps. I kind of want to put together an effortpost on it because its pretty shocking just how close the two group are as far as philosophy goes. Find time to do that please, that's interesting. More than likely it'll get shitposted pretty quickly but  LeftistMuslimObama posted:I think a lot of the misogyny and hypermachismo you see in gamer/nerd culture is a desire not to be seen as feminine. In real life, a lot of people who get categorized as nerds are often ridiculed for being unathletic, for being uninterested in sports, for being weak or small, or any number of other traits that are often identified as "feminine". In their desire to assert themselves as "not a girl", and aided by the anonymity of places like 4chan, they go way too far in the other direction. People who argue with their bombastic, MRA-style rhetoric only cause them to dig in more because they perceive criticism as an attack on their manhood rather than as constructive feedback. It's a perfect storm of human beings with a completely diminished ego and a powerful drive to go defensive immediately when criticized. Yeah, saying again that's a good read. I'm sure it affects the rampant misogyny, given that when you look at their rhetoric (and here I'm talking about a wide swath of young guys online, incels, mras, etc.) their narrative is that women go for "bad" guys who mistreat them instead of nice guys (in fact there's a thread about that in a/t), so being the bad guy that disrespects women is like, the most masculine, unfeminine thing possible. However I don't think it's a totally sufficient explanation for, say, the virulent racism.
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May 14, 2015 22:26
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This thread is more full of potato than Idaho. Congrats.
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May 14, 2015 22:26
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Gantolandon posted:People who spend most of their time on forums try to analyze why some other people spend all of their time on other forums and call them shut-ins. A discussion forum having a topic wherein another forum is analyzed? You're right sir, that truly is a jest. 
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May 14, 2015 22:29
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Every online community has a bunch of weirdos, paedophiles and racists kept (barely) in check by moderation. Without moderation, they float to the surface, it becomes a place known as being filled with racists, weirdos and paedophiles and a feedback loop develops as the more normal people start to steer clear.
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May 14, 2015 22:33
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Sharkie posted:
Pretty similar to any other group's reason for virulent racism. The one exception (at least until recently) is that internet users were typically wealthier on average (because computers were expensive) so the "took our jobs" motivation was usually absent.
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May 14, 2015 22:34
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If we are going to talk about male insecurity as transformed by 4chan and the like, it would likely be important to note the long view while doing so. Masculine insecurity has a long and colourful history. I only just recently read a book on the topic. To shorten the thesis with slight risk of misrepresenting it: If post-gamergate 4chan and its kin have become a kind of homosocial refuge from the pressures and expectations of the larger emasculating society, then they are doomed to failure just like every previous kind of homosocial perserve that came before it. This kind of problem predates even protofeminism. It didn't work then, and it's not going to work now. Gantolandon posted:People who spend most of their time on forums try to analyze why some other people spend all of their time on other forums and call them shut-ins. Ian Winthorpe III posted:Addicted to the narcissism of small difference. Sectarianism is one hell of a drug.
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May 14, 2015 22:41
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Why bother trying to ascribe a political status to imageboards where anyone can post anonymously? Hell, I don't even do it here where everyone's got a name.
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May 14, 2015 22:54
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RottenK posted:This is going to turn into a thread about gamergate and goons screaming at each other that SA is just as bad. To be fair, the OP essentially posted "don't make this thread about gamergate even though gamergate is totally horrible and gross for these reasons" like a jackass. He pricked his own thread with a slow acting poison. On a side note : remember Blizzard's proposed Real ID system, where your real name would be visibly attached to your forum account? People revolted over that until they backed off, so I think most people value anonymity despite the 'consequences'. Shitty Wizard fucked around with this message at 23:01 on May 14, 2015 |
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May 14, 2015 22:55
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4chan really became what it did because it prided itself on being reprehensible. That's especially true of /b/, which was the fount of what we'd call "chan culture." I'd say an equivalent would be SASS, which was composed of goons who in a similar vein held their shocking and terrible views as their defining characteristic. Their advocacy of racism, sexism, fascism, and other right-wing dogma had little substance to it, they weren't really political. Same of most anons, it was expected of you to be homphobic, racist, sexist, and not be called out for it and not to call out or criticize such behavior yourself. But then there are boards where it was political, such as /new/ and then /pol/.
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May 14, 2015 23:04
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doublepost
Merdifex fucked around with this message at 23:09 on May 14, 2015 |
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May 14, 2015 23:04
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icantfindaname posted:The answer to all these questions is basically the same and is that nerds are fundamentally reactionaries, reacting to the fact that nobody but them gives a poo poo about their cherished pieces of media. Much the same way that social conservatives are fighting to preserve the patriarchal, white supremacist world they love so much, nerds fight to preserve the children's media landscape of when they were 12 years old, forever. a lot of nerds are super liberal though
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May 14, 2015 23:07
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SunAndSpring posted:Why bother trying to ascribe a political status to imageboards where anyone can post anonymously? Hell, I don't even do it here where everyone's got a name. these places can serve as platforms to organize political speech and action, as well as harboring a certain branch of thought. as much as any internet community may describe itself as a place where free speech is valued, actually supporting free speech requires moderation and maintenance lest unpopular minority views be drowned out - one way something awful accomplishes this is by gating certain opinions into subforums. GIP was created partially because of long, tedious, angry flamewars in d&d between anti- and pro- iraq war opinions
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May 14, 2015 23:08
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Popular Thug Drink posted:these places can serve as platforms to organize political speech and action, as well as harboring a certain branch of thought. as much as any internet community may describe itself as a place where free speech is valued, actually supporting free speech requires moderation and maintenance lest unpopular minority views be drowned out - one way something awful accomplishes this is by gating certain opinions into subforums. GIP was created partially because of long, tedious, angry flamewars in d&d between anti- and pro- iraq war opinions And they do, /v/ and it's diaspora became the bastion for anti-feminism and reactionary beliefs within the context of gamers and the games industry. And the havoc they've wrought doesn't need to be mentioned.
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May 14, 2015 23:12
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LeftistMuslimObama posted:I think a lot of the misogyny and hypermachismo you see in gamer/nerd culture is a desire not to be seen as feminine. In real life, a lot of people who get categorized as nerds are often ridiculed for being unathletic, for being uninterested in sports, for being weak or small, or any number of other traits that are often identified as "feminine". In their desire to assert themselves as "not a girl", and aided by the anonymity of places like 4chan, they go way too far in the other direction. People who argue with their bombastic, MRA-style rhetoric only cause them to dig in more because they perceive criticism as an attack on their manhood rather than as constructive feedback. It's a perfect storm of human beings with a completely diminished ego and a powerful drive to go defensive immediately when criticized. i wonder if some nerds go the opposite direction by embracing the criticisms and that's why so many nerds are trans
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May 14, 2015 23:17
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BigRed0427 posted:On that note, do you think the people that eventually left chan boards just moved on to Reddit? There's a self-serving myth that anons who did migrate to Reddit were in fact "proto-SJWs" (I say that because the word wasn't around then) and were channers who wouldn't ascribe to their ideal of anonymity and free speech ( that is, being racist, sexist, reactionary, and never dissenting against such views). This I don't think can be proven, but it's interesting that to this day, or at least before gamergate, channers used the term "redditor" to essentially mean "SJW," which is all the more bizarre because reddit never was some stronghold of leftist dogma or whatever, and channers only recognized that when they joined forces with redditors because of gamergate.
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May 14, 2015 23:19
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Merdifex posted:There's a self-serving myth that anons who did migrate to Reddit were in fact "proto-SJWs" (I say that because the word wasn't around then) and were channers who wouldn't ascribe to their ideal of anonymity and free speech ( that is, being racist, sexist, reactionary, and never dissenting against such views). far-right nerds think reddit is a sjw haven and far-left nerds think it's a libertarian mra haven. it's kind of like how american liberals and conservatives perceive cable news channels
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May 14, 2015 23:24
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Merdifex posted:And they do, /v/ and it's diaspora became the bastion for anti-feminism and reactionary beliefs within the context of gamers and the games industry. And the havoc they've wrought doesn't need to be mentioned. You say that like its a bad thing? Their free culture is more vibrant and alive than SA's, and as a consequence is now a brighter light for the internet and larger producer of content. Many very funny people I run into in other places online will say that they used to be goons or used to read the front page but stopped because of the bullshit. Since SA is a place which seems to poo poo on "out there" stuff people with interesting things to say go to other places to say them.
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May 14, 2015 23:26
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Cliff Racer posted:You say that like its a bad thing? Their free culture is more vibrant and alive than SA's, and as a consequence is now a brighter light for the internet and larger producer of content. Many very funny people I run into in other places online will say that they used to be goons or used to read the front page but stopped because of the bullshit. Since SA is a place which seems to poo poo on "out there" stuff people with interesting things to say go to other places to say them. ya i stopped reading the front page when every other arrticle was zack parsons trying to satirize some political issue
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May 14, 2015 23:29
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Cliff Racer posted:You say that like its a bad thing? Their free culture is more vibrant and alive than SA's... Personally I would say that yes, a "bastion for anti-feminism and reactionary beliefs" is a bad thing. Though your definition of good and bad here seems to be based on number of memes produced or something, regardless of whether the content is "black people are subhuman."
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May 14, 2015 23:30
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reignonyourparade posted:Every I see an attempted survey/tracking of 4chan's demographics the userbase is always reported as surprisingly female as compared to the internet at large. LeftistMuslimObama posted:I think a lot of the misogyny and hypermachismo you see in gamer/nerd culture is a desire not to be seen as feminine. In real life, a lot of people who get categorized as nerds are often ridiculed for being unathletic, for being uninterested in sports, for being weak or small, or any number of other traits that are often identified as "feminine". In their desire to assert themselves as "not a girl", and aided by the anonymity of places like 4chan, they go way too far in the other direction. People who argue with their bombastic, MRA-style rhetoric only cause them to dig in more because they perceive criticism as an attack on their manhood rather than as constructive feedback. It's a perfect storm of human beings with a completely diminished ego and a powerful drive to go defensive immediately when criticized. I think we're on to something here. Could it be that, in their attempt to seem more masculine, they actually got some women's attention?
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May 14, 2015 23:30
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quite the fucker posted:a lot of nerds are super liberal though Liberals are frequently nice until you challenge their own preconceptions, then they turn nasty.
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May 14, 2015 23:31
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Popular Thug Drink posted:these places can serve as platforms to organize political speech and action, as well as harboring a certain branch of thought. as much as any internet community may describe itself as a place where free speech is valued, actually supporting free speech requires moderation and maintenance lest unpopular minority views be drowned out - one way something awful accomplishes this is by gating certain opinions into subforums. GIP was created partially because of long, tedious, angry flamewars in d&d between anti- and pro- iraq war opinions It's interesting to hear the point of "Free speech requires moderation so that the less popular viewpoints can have their time to shine." The 4chan view of free speech, from what I've seen, seems to be "Free speech needs to be unmoderated so that no one can dictate the flow of it." I think both points have some merit, to an extent. If a mob mentality forms up, it can be very hard to get your opinion out without getting shouted down. Yet at the same time, if you've got someone who can flat-out remove anyone who might disagree with his or her opinions, that can be just as toxic. Anyway, I think 4chan already does what you have said to an extent. /lgbt/ was made after the 4chan gay community complained about there being no where to really talk about that stuff outside of maybe /soc/ and /pol/, for example.
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May 14, 2015 23:31
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Cliff Racer posted:You say that like its a bad thing? Their free culture is more vibrant and alive than SA's, and as a consequence is now a brighter light for the internet and larger producer of content. Many very funny people I run into in other places online will say that they used to be goons or used to read the front page but stopped because of the bullshit. Since SA is a place which seems to poo poo on "out there" stuff people with interesting things to say go to other places to say them. It's true, the chans produce far more futanari pics of Vivian James than SA does.
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May 14, 2015 23:34
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I personally think being below average in the production of horrendous garbage is something to strive for.
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May 14, 2015 23:36
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quite the fucker posted:far-right nerds think reddit is a sjw haven and far-left nerds think it's a libertarian mra haven. it's kind of like how american liberals and conservatives perceive cable news channels I would guess that Reddit, and the Internet generally, tends to be both more liberal and more libertarian than the general population in some ways. There don't seem to be many religious conservatives on Reddit outside of a handful of specific subs, for example, and I don't think there are many centrists either. In general, though, the more users a subreddit has, the more far-right it is. Reddit is probably to the right of basically every "generic" Internet community except the various chans.
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May 14, 2015 23:37
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quite the fucker posted:far-right nerds think reddit is a sjw haven and far-left nerds think it's a libertarian mra haven. it's kind of like how american liberals and conservatives perceive cable news channels Isn't it both? Also I used to post on 4chan during the Bush years and a bit after, I fled after getting a life and finding the content on this site more..less awful. I'd say 4chan's deal was being contrarian, and 8chan is the people who think 4chan isn't contrarian enough.
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May 14, 2015 23:37
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SunAndSpring posted:It's interesting to hear the point of "Free speech requires moderation so that the less popular viewpoints can have their time to shine." The 4chan view of free speech, from what I've seen, seems to be "Free speech needs to be unmoderated so that no one can dictate the flow of it." no one being a single vested authority. the bounds of acceptable speech is always controlled by the participants in one form or another, even if it's just one person leveraging their ability to be loud, prolific, and obnoxious i think even reaching for some ideal of free speech is itself fallacious, as what makes speech 'free' is going to differ as a matter of taste boner confessor fucked around with this message at 23:41 on May 14, 2015 |
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May 14, 2015 23:39
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Sharkie posted:Personally I would say that yes, a "bastion for anti-feminism and reactionary beliefs" is a bad thing. Though your definition of good and bad here seems to be based on number of memes produced or something, regardless of whether the content is "black people are subhuman." the black people are subhuman meme
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May 14, 2015 23:42
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Cliff Racer posted:You say that like its a bad thing? Their free culture is more vibrant and alive than SA's, and as a consequence is now a brighter light for the internet and larger producer of content. Many very funny people I run into in other places online will say that they used to be goons or used to read the front page but stopped because of the bullshit. Since SA is a place which seems to poo poo on "out there" stuff people with interesting things to say go to other places to say them. It is quite a bad thing. Defining a community by it's output of memes is pointless when you don't even consider the cultural context which produced said content. 4chan being a crucible of bigotry and self-loathing cannot be ignored. The "OC" argument is also a bullshit justification bigots make for keeping 4chan terrible. But I don't think the reprehensible morality of 4chan is what produces the content.
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May 14, 2015 23:46
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*Slams open door, skids to a stop* Did somebody say memes?!
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May 14, 2015 23:46
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StandardVC10 posted:I forget what 8chan does. I do know that if it's a number other than 4, it's probably something that was kicked out of 4chan, which doesn't usually lead to good things. The original 8chan was founded when 4chan finally enforced "absolutely no child porn, seriously, we're working with the fbi now". Most of the admins of the original 8chan ended up in jail. The new 8chan is gamergaters who think 4chan is too "sjw" for making fun of them whining about women and video games all day. Of course your Cliff Racer types praise the first manifestation as freedom. Jerry Manderbilt posted:Was nerddom always like this? Like back during the 90s, was nerd more associated with academic achievement rather than being way too into some fandom? I think I remember some sociology papers back then outlining how nerds were on average much more socially progressive than today. What gave? I find those papers suspect, if for no other reason than the fact you can still go and browse the entire usenet text archives, vast message base dumps from BBSes and early forums, and even just many straight up older websites. And the nerds on there were often as not little proto-stormfronters or other such nastys. And that's to say nothing of the sorta things you might see in fanzines, physical mailing lists (yes nerds did that) or straight up cons, especially more local ones. Perhaps those papers were only surveying smaller segments, since after all it was a lot harder to get a comprehensive view of the internet, let alone "nerddom" as a whole, then despite being much smaller?
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May 14, 2015 23:50
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Some people think we should police communities for terrible content, while other people think that we have a right to free speech. Maybe the answer is somewhere in the middle; we could police and moderate content every other day.
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May 14, 2015 23:51
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