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reignofevil
Nov 7, 2008

Beef Turret posted:

But atheism does imply certain value sets, just like christianity. I never accepted the idea that atheism was like being a "non-stamp collector". Clearly people who live in certain ways, regardless of what labels they apply to themselves, live according to certain values and narratives they've accepted or rejected. Those things matter more than labels and it makes no sense to claim your own values to be neutral after the horrors of militant atheism in the USSR and China. That's the equivalent of saying "I don't speak with an accent, other people do", it's just a sleigh of hand

Atheism implies value sets. The value sets that it implies are not the ones you are applying to it (as there is no good reason to associate the actions of people in the USSR with current day atheism). Lemmie know if you need this broken down to be more simple.

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RaceBannon
Apr 3, 2010

Blurry Gray Thing posted:

"Not religious" is a belief.

wrong.

Beef Turret
Jul 9, 2009

by Lowtax

reignofevil posted:

Atheism implies value sets. The value sets that it implies are not the ones you are applying to it (as there is no good reason to associate the actions of people in the USSR with current day atheism). Lemmie know if you need this broken down to be more simple.

"It is our duty to destroy every religious world-concept. If the destruction of ten million human beings, as happened in the last war, should be necessary for the triumph of one definite class, then that must be done and it will be done." - League of Militant Atheists

"What will we do if an Islamist regime, which grows dewy-eyed at the mere mention of paradise, ever acquires long-range nuclear weaponry? If history is any guide, we will not be sure about where the offending warheads are or what their state of readiness is, and so we will be unable to rely on targeted, conventional weapons to destroy them. In such a situation, the only thing likely to ensure our survival may be a nuclear first strike of our own. Needless to say, this would be an unthinkable crime - as it would kill tens of millions of innocent civilians in a single day - but it may be the only course of action available to us, given what Islamists believe." - Sam Harris

Knight
Dec 23, 2000

SPACE-A-HOLIC
Taco Defender
I asked someone if they were religious and they said "I have a boyfriend" :(

bonvivant
Oct 1, 2014

I may be racist, transphobic, an antisemite and a misogynist, but I project like an angel ;)
sam harris is beloved by all atheists and hell, look at how many progressives don't call richard dawkins a clueless piece of trash on twitter

vug
Jan 23, 2015

by Cowcaster

Knight posted:

I asked someone if they were religious and they said "I have a boyfriend" :(

Beef Turret
Jul 9, 2009

by Lowtax

bonvivant posted:

sam harris is beloved by all atheists and hell, look at how many progressives don't call richard dawkins a clueless piece of trash on twitter

If only atheists didn't accept all or most of what Sam Harris and Dawkins believe about science and morality you'd have a point. Your little infights don't interest anyone else

FrankenVader
Sep 12, 2004
Polymer Records
An Atheist has faith that there is no God, but no ability to prove it. An Agnostic knows that they can't prove if there is, or isn't a God and accepts it as such. One of these two groups is an rear end in a top hat about it.

TacticalUrbanHomo
Aug 17, 2011

by Lowtax

Beef Turret posted:

But atheism does imply certain value sets, just like christianity. I never accepted the idea that atheism was like being a "non-stamp collector". Clearly people who live in certain ways, regardless of what labels they apply to themselves, live according to certain values and narratives they've accepted or rejected. Those things matter more than labels and it makes no sense to claim your own values to be neutral after the horrors of militant atheism in the USSR and China. That's the equivalent of saying "I don't speak with an accent, other people do", it's just a sleigh of hand

It doesn't matter whether you accept it, that's what it means. Christianity is a positive belief. Lacking that belief does not make you a Muslim by default. Similarly, theism (of any, or no, particular sort) is a positive belief. Lacking that positive belief does not make you a materialist or a communist or an anything-ist except an atheist, which means nothing except lacking that positive belief. Lacking one positive belief does not require you to hold any other positive belief.

quakster
Jul 21, 2007

by FactsAreUseless
what if im athetits as all hell by any worthwhile definition but feel sorry for my country's church because people are leaving it in droves to save on taxes and only the hardcore wackadoos are staying? i mostly share values and culture with people i've personally interacted with, rather than some imaginary atheist hivemind, does this make me a fake atheist? or stalin?

quakster fucked around with this message at 15:39 on May 23, 2015

quakster
Jul 21, 2007

by FactsAreUseless
seriously it's p. hosed that so few people actually feel a genuine connection to christianity, perhaps because it's ultimately just another random 2000 year old strain of culture from the middle east that was forced onto millions of people, often violently, much like a contagious viral disease

Beef Turret
Jul 9, 2009

by Lowtax

TacticalUrbanHomo posted:

It doesn't matter whether you accept it, that's what it means. Christianity is a positive belief. Lacking that belief does not make you a Muslim by default. Similarly, theism (of any, or no, particular sort) is a positive belief. Lacking that positive belief does not make you a materialist or a communist or an anything-ist except an atheist, which means nothing except lacking that positive belief. Lacking one positive belief does not require you to hold any other positive belief.

I don't accept it because it isn't true. The idea of positive and negative beliefs are just marketing terms that were made up in the 70s to elevate atheist assumptions over others, like how positive and negative liberty were used to champion liberalism. Atheism is not the default position for various reasons, one is that religious belief is in all likelihood biologically innate in humans and also that it goes with the cultural conditioning of living in a society. By using the term positive belief you're just mystifying the fact that belief is an activity, not an entity

Beef Turret fucked around with this message at 16:04 on May 23, 2015

TacticalUrbanHomo
Aug 17, 2011

by Lowtax

Beef Turret posted:

I don't accept it because it isn't true. The idea of positive and negative beliefs are just marketing terms that were made up in the 70s to elevate atheist assumptions over others, like how positive and negative liberty were used to champion liberalism. Atheism is not the default position for various reasons, one is that religious belief is in all likelihood biologically innate in humans and also that it goes with the cultural conditioning of living in a society. By using the term positive belief you're just mystifying the fact that belief is an activity, not an entity

Atheism doesn't entail any assumptions. They simply lack a faith in god. You seem to be asserting that this can't be true because it "elevate[s]" atheism.

Zzulu
May 15, 2009

(▰˘v˘▰)

Beef Turret
Jul 9, 2009

by Lowtax

TacticalUrbanHomo posted:

Atheism doesn't entail any assumptions. They simply lack a faith in god. You seem to be asserting that this can't be true because it "elevate[s]" atheism.

Yeah it does. Even the assumption of "there is no god" has many implications. And the idea that some held assumption can be "positive" and "negative" is something Antony Flew cooked up in the 70s . It's a meaningless term outside a formal setting

reignofevil
Nov 7, 2008

Beef Turret posted:

"It is our duty to destroy every religious world-concept. If the destruction of ten million human beings, as happened in the last war, should be necessary for the triumph of one definite class, then that must be done and it will be done." - League of Militant Atheists

"What will we do if an Islamist regime, which grows dewy-eyed at the mere mention of paradise, ever acquires long-range nuclear weaponry? If history is any guide, we will not be sure about where the offending warheads are or what their state of readiness is, and so we will be unable to rely on targeted, conventional weapons to destroy them. In such a situation, the only thing likely to ensure our survival may be a nuclear first strike of our own. Needless to say, this would be an unthinkable crime - as it would kill tens of millions of innocent civilians in a single day - but it may be the only course of action available to us, given what Islamists believe." - Sam Harris

So what proportion of Atheists does this group and this person represent?

I am asking you because while I could go find out the honest question here is "if whatever percentage of atheists ascribe to the beliefs of TLoMA or Sam Harris is sufficient for you to ascribe cultural values to the group as a whole; why shouldn't we ascribe ________ (insert negative cultural value) to ________ (culture with identical percentage of radical members)."

And that really has way more to do with whatever number you are gonna pull out than whatever number I'd get from googling.

Beef Turret
Jul 9, 2009

by Lowtax

reignofevil posted:

So what proportion of Atheists does this group and this person represent?

I am asking you because while I could go find out the honest question here is "if whatever percentage of atheists ascribe to the beliefs of TLoMA or Sam Harris is sufficient for you to ascribe cultural values to the group as a whole; why shouldn't we ascribe ________ (insert negative cultural value) to ________ (culture with identical percentage of radical members)."

And that really has way more to do with whatever number you are gonna pull out than whatever number I'd get from googling.

Like most western atheists Sam Harris is a neo-liberal protestant minus god

Ocean Book
Sep 27, 2010

:yum: - hi

I don't get what's so bad to some people about atheism being a 'belief system', which is basically another word for 'ideology'. It's impossible as a human to be non-ideological but its like 'belief' is a scary work that atheists have to make sure to not associate with.

reignofevil
Nov 7, 2008

Beef Turret posted:

Like most western atheists Sam Harris is a neo-liberal protestant minus god

Gimmie a number man.

Edit- *So said every Atheist*

Rolo
Nov 16, 2005

Hmm, what have we here?
I got a job once by lying on the interview after being asked my religion and political affiliation. Luckily I noticed Fox News was on in his office, so I answered correctly.

If you ask me poo poo like this I will lie for my own benefit.

A Stupid Baby
Dec 31, 2002

lip up fatty
just say youre from the midwest and repeatedly pretend not to understand the question

Beef Turret
Jul 9, 2009

by Lowtax

reignofevil posted:

Gimmie a number man.

Edit- *So said every Atheist*

It's not really unreasonable to say people from western civ believe in protestantism, the worldview peculiar to the west

FreudianSlippers
Apr 12, 2010

Shooting and Fucking
are the same thing!

Atheism is for scrubs. Sun worship is where it's at.

reignofevil
Nov 7, 2008

Beef Turret posted:

It's not really unreasonable to say people from western civ believe in protestantism, the worldview peculiar to the west

I guess I was unclear. Amongst Atheists how many would you say prescribe to the beliefs of the groups which you are attempting to imply all Atheists share? Again if there is more confusion I can go back and quote you which groups you think have influenced which opinions and how it is valid to ascribe these beliefs to all Atheists.
Edit- and that is how many PEOPLE. A number or percentage of a whole please. Estimates are fine.

Ocean Book
Sep 27, 2010

:yum: - hi

reignofevil posted:

I guess I was unclear. Amongst Atheists how many would you say prescribe to the beliefs of the groups which you are attempting to imply all Atheists share? Again if there is more confusion I can go back and quote you which groups you think have influenced which opinions and how it is valid to ascribe these beliefs to all Atheists.
Edit- and that is how many PEOPLE. A number or percentage of a whole please. Estimates are fine.

this is stupid and your point is stupid. Beef turret is saying that Protestantism has influenced cultural values in the west. Estimating how many people hold those values and to what extent is impossible to do usefully. What point are you going for anyway, 'cultural values don't exist, only population-ratios of personal values do'?

Beef Turret
Jul 9, 2009

by Lowtax

reignofevil posted:

I guess I was unclear. Amongst Atheists how many would you say prescribe to the beliefs of the groups which you are attempting to imply all Atheists share? Again if there is more confusion I can go back and quote you which groups you think have influenced which opinions and how it is valid to ascribe these beliefs to all Atheists.

I don't know because the polls only ask about the labels. But from the people I've known, I've noticed atheists in the west are more likely to believe that science and religion are antagonists using almost the same slogans as the Maoists who thought religion was holding back the revolutionary potential of the masses. Theyre more likely to think western civilization is superior and that we should spread western values of enlightenment and rationality to the world. They're prone to fetishize technology and systems over outcome, and believe that institutional science is the only way to find truth. All of those assumptions follow naturally one after the other from the belief that there is no god, and justifies rule by technocrats who have the right scientific credentials, which is incidentally the late soviet era summed up

TacticalUrbanHomo
Aug 17, 2011

by Lowtax

Beef Turret posted:

Yeah it does. Even the assumption of "there is no god" has many implications. And the idea that some held assumption can be "positive" and "negative" is something Antony Flew cooked up in the 70s . It's a meaningless term outside a formal setting

"There is no god" isn't an assumption necessarily being made, though. Atheism is a simple rejection of the positive, that isn't the assertion of the negative.

TacticalUrbanHomo
Aug 17, 2011

by Lowtax

Ocean Book posted:

I don't get what's so bad to some people about atheism being a 'belief system', which is basically another word for 'ideology'. It's impossible as a human to be non-ideological but its like 'belief' is a scary work that atheists have to make sure to not associate with.

I don't think they do. It would be pretty hard being a functional human being if you don't believe anything. I mean even Descartes believed that everyone could believe, if nothing else, in their own existence. If you refuse to believe anything then you're going to have a pretty fanciful life, if you ever get to doing anything other than pondering whether you do in fact exist.

quakster
Jul 21, 2007

by FactsAreUseless
culture, including atheism and religion, is born from self-preservation and the drive to do things. as atheism specially requires giving low priority to the part of your brain that believes in ghosts and faeries, you resort to atheist thinking when a more spiritual approach would not yield the results desired or required for survival. call it god, or natural selection, or the cosmic taintjuice, but whatever ypu call it, it ensured that your brain is a toolbox ready to handle lots of different situations and anyone squabbling about the false dichotomy of atheist/theist is on the mental level of a fetus. the species is still around because while an individual brain often gets stuck in one gear for life, we can then specialize in that type of thinking and look after people who function and think differently despite our conflicting worldviews

quakster
Jul 21, 2007

by FactsAreUseless
admittedly im biased because my goony hosed up digestion keeps flipping my brain functions on and off like a toy boat in a washing machine, stopping me from settling in a specific way of thinking. its a real hoot

TacticalUrbanHomo
Aug 17, 2011

by Lowtax

quakster posted:

admittedly im biased because my goony hosed up digestion keeps flipping my brain functions on and off like a toy boat in a washing machine, stopping me from settling in a specific way of thinking. its a real hoot

is it going to flip them back on anytime soon

Beef Turret
Jul 9, 2009

by Lowtax

TacticalUrbanHomo posted:

"There is no god" isn't an assumption necessarily being made, though. Atheism is a simple rejection of the positive, that isn't the assertion of the negative.

The assumption is implicit and is functionally identical to how people live their regular lives. Separating explicit and implicit assumptions is just an empty intellectual exercise that has no bearing on anything. A person can have an implicit assumption that's essentially "there's some greater power who created everything" and when confronted with the atrocities of religion say "those are positive, specific beliefs in some manifestation of god, my conception is universal" and he'd be just as wrong

Scrotum Modem
Sep 12, 2014

I find many people who identify as atheist (not talking about internet fedora atheists) to really be no different than internet agnostics in regards to their positions on how they feel about popular religious deities and that from a scientific standpoint, there are so many unknowns that it would be silly to claim to know otherwise. I call myself an atheist in the broadest sense of the term, though it would probably be more correct to be called an apatheist. Neil DeGrasse Tyson calls himself an agnostic (youtube vid) for reasons relating to separating himself from internet atheists and also because of his apathetic position on the matter when it comes to the supernatural in the natural world, and if that's what agnostic means, then perhaps that's what I am. But when I read things on the internet like

FrankenVader posted:

An Atheist has faith that there is no God, but no ability to prove it. An Agnostic knows that they can't prove if there is, or isn't a God and accepts it as such. One of these two groups is an rear end in a top hat about it.

I honestly don't want to be identified as either. Arguing about this poo poo is a waste of energy, for fucks sakes.

quakster
Jul 21, 2007

by FactsAreUseless

TacticalUrbanHomo posted:

is it going to flip them back on anytime soon
hopefully not, i'm planning to watch the eurovision finals

RaceBannon
Apr 3, 2010

Ocean Book posted:

I don't get what's so bad to some people about atheism being a 'belief system', which is basically another word for 'ideology'. It's impossible as a human to be non-ideological but its like 'belief' is a scary work that atheists have to make sure to not associate with.

It's not that its bad but it is wrong.

TacticalUrbanHomo
Aug 17, 2011

by Lowtax

Beef Turret posted:

The assumption is implicit and is functionally identical to how people live their regular lives. Separating explicit and implicit assumptions is just an empty intellectual exercise that has no bearing on anything. A person can have an implicit assumption that's essentially "there's some greater power who created everything" and when confronted with the atrocities of religion say "those are positive, specific beliefs in some manifestation of god, my conception is universal" and he'd be just as wrong

Which is it? Is it an implicit assumption, or is such an assumption functionally identical to how people live their regular lives? For some people, it may well be the former, but I've never met a person who, when asked, will say "I know there is no god". Even Dawkins puts himself as a 6 on the theism scale, where 6 is someone inclined to believe there isn't a god and 7 is a person who actively asserts the non-existence of the divine.

For most people identifying as atheists, it's the latter. Yes, the way they live their life is probably identical to how someone who assumes the non-existence of god would live, and so for most practical reasons the difference is negligible, but when the subject being discussed is that person's thoughts, yes, there is an important difference. They don't have to assume the negative to reject the positive. They do, however, have to make the pragmatic decision to live their life as if anything they can't (or won't) assert to exist doesn't exist, because the alternative is literal insanity. Teapot, spaghetti monster, etc.

If you're actually going to assert that there is no difference between lacking faith in a positive claim and asserting the negative, then what does that make radical skeptics, to you? People who reject even the Cartesian proposition that a mind capable of pondering its own existence can be at least sure that it exists? If you don't see any distinction between rejecting or failing to believe a positive claim, and asserting that claim's negative, then you can't have put very much thought into epistemology, or whatever thought you have put into it has been driven with a point of reaching a predetermined conclusion.

Beef Turret
Jul 9, 2009

by Lowtax

ashgromnies
Jun 19, 2004

TacticalUrbanHomo posted:

try just saying that


tao isn't a real thing, though, it's a nebulous descriptive noun for a particular flavour of "spiritual experience", to which the same applies as above

lmao look at this fukken retard

Ocean Book
Sep 27, 2010

:yum: - hi

RaceBannon posted:

It's not that its bad but it is wrong.

how is atheism not a belief system? The absence of a specific belief is a belief system.

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quakster
Jul 21, 2007

by FactsAreUseless

Ocean Book posted:

how is atheism not a belief system? The absence of a specific belief is a belief system.
a pedatic argument over the definition of "belief system" itt. thread's goin' places

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