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Moridin920
Nov 15, 2007

by FactsAreUseless
we're not at the end of history

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TEAYCHES
Jun 23, 2002

it should be put forward that joining the eu isnt some neutral economic plan without any political aspect. i mean, come on, that and nato go hand in hand. get a grip. the united states is trying to stymie russia with aggressive foreign policy. for however evil and awful putin and russia is, this isnt an incorrect reading of american ambitions

Moridin920 posted:

no but you're naive if you think Russia isn't backing the seperatists. Ukraine should have been more inclusive of their Russian population but Russia took advantage of a situation and followed a fairly old operating procedure of 'fund rebel groups sympathetic to your government.' There's Russian troops and equipment in Ukraine, they've obviously got vested interests here.

the russians are totally backing the separatists

Moridin920
Nov 15, 2007

by FactsAreUseless

TEAYCHES posted:

it should be put forward that joining the eu isnt some neutral economic plan without any political aspect. i mean, come on, that and nato go hand in hand. get a grip. the united states is trying to stymie russia with aggressive foreign policy. for however evil and awful putin and russia is, this isnt an incorrect reading of american ambitions

Yeah but Russia is responding in the worst way possible.

opus111
Jul 6, 2014

killmeimmafailure posted:

We live in the end of history, anyway. Wars are too expensive, oils too cheap, and too much poo poo is outsourced everywhere. There's no financial motive to go to war. Is that Marxist?

war isn't about money, its about power. war is in our genes, the only way it will disappear is if we live for many more thousands of years and things come to a point where power is an outdated and useless concept.

you mean there won't be another world war, which is hopefully true. but there will always be skirmishes between puppet governments.

Tuxedo Gin
May 21, 2003

Classy.

i don't care about his politics but i will forever hate him because he is a poo poo linguist and his hoards of followers have really dumb ideas about how language works

TEAYCHES
Jun 23, 2002

Moridin920 posted:

Yeah but Russia is responding in the worst way possible.

so would anyone in their situation. theres no way to prevent them from responding the way they are. its either diplomacy and allowing a russian sphere of influence or more proxy wars and insanity

opus111
Jul 6, 2014

also the US is currently doing what the british empire was doing 170 years ago... shits always the same, just different actors,

I AM GRANDO
Aug 20, 2006

Wait until we start running out of copper.


And water.

And wait until the coasts start sinking.

Oh what merry fun well have

opus111
Jul 6, 2014

Tuxedo Gin posted:

i don't care about his politics but i will forever hate him because he is a poo poo linguist and his hoards of followers have really dumb ideas about how language works

lol my previous post proven again. go on then, educate everybody.

killmeimmafailure
Apr 19, 2015

by Nyc_Tattoo

opus111 posted:

war isn't about money, its about power. war is in our genes, the only way it will disappear is if we live for many more thousands of years and things come to a point where power is an outdated and useless concept.

you mean there won't be another world war, which is hopefully true. but there will always be skirmishes between puppet governments.

Sure I'm more responding to people talking Cold War poo poo. Arming dudes to spite other dudes is just how it goes. I'm not current about urkraine so I dunno.

E: I was only be slightly factious abou the end of history stuff. people have literally been saying that since the dawn of time. i just doubt anything more than saber rattling and sanctions. Arm some strategically and ideologically positioned rebels and you've got the recipe for how geopolitics works in the the 21st century

killmeimmafailure fucked around with this message at 08:31 on May 24, 2015

Moridin920
Nov 15, 2007

by FactsAreUseless

TEAYCHES posted:

so would anyone in their situation. theres no way to prevent them from responding the way they are. its either diplomacy and allowing a russian sphere of influence or more proxy wars and insanity

pf. give ukraine the middle finger, shut the oil off if you want to be petty, then instead of getting into a pissing match with the West and spending all your cash reserves propping up your currency instead invest it on future energy tech like nuclear and at the same time start building infrastructure to access all the oil in the arctic circle. when Canada and co. start screaming loud enough tell them the poo poo is already in place but you'd be glad to sell them oil at a discounted rate.

there's all sorts of poo poo they could be doing other than trying to regain some poo poo lands for pride reasons. what's the end goal here? say they get all of ukraine tomorrow without a fight. then what? how much are they going to be in the hole fixing up that whole money sink region? they should focus on the fact that the average male dies around 35 before trying to rebuild the empire.

TEAYCHES
Jun 23, 2002

Moridin920 posted:

pf. give ukraine the middle finger, shut the oil off if you want to be petty, then instead of getting into a pissing match with the West and spending all your cash reserves propping up your currency instead invest it on future energy tech like nuclear and at the same time start building infrastructure to access all the oil in the arctic circle. when Canada and co. start screaming loud enough tell them the poo poo is already in place but you'd be glad to sell them oil at a discounted rate.

there's all sorts of poo poo they could be doing other than trying to regain some poo poo lands for pride reasons. what's the end goal here? say they get all of ukraine tomorrow without a fight. then what? how much are they going to be in the hole fixing up that whole money sink region? they should focus on the fact that the average male dies around 35 before trying to rebuild the empire.

the united states should focus on its own horrific internal problems, just like russia - we agree on this. you speak like russia doesnt have the same kind of weird nationalism driving along a hosed up society. russia and the united states are disturbingly similar

i dont think putin even had a plan for the ukraine crisis, they took crimea because it became convenient and because the people living there went along with it. maybe they will get some of the eastern Ukraine provinces. self determination, am i rite? looks like sudetenland and ww2 all over again, maybe, except its not, in a world of super powers. idk what to tell you

what do you want to happen? russia pulls back and ignores the anti-russia military alliance encirclement? that is fantasy

TacticalUrbanHomo
Aug 17, 2011

by Lowtax

TEAYCHES posted:

lol if you think russia doesnt see nato expansion into eastern europe as a pretty hosed up thing considering, oh, i dont know, history

lol if you think russia isn't a pretty hosed up thing considering, oh, I don't know, history the present day and the entire history of its existence

Beef Turret
Jul 9, 2009

by Lowtax
Here's a funny essay length takedown of Chomsky. Including his politics, his stupid linguistic theory and his careerism https://astudygroup.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/chomsky-on-the-nod-bob-black-reduced-size.pdf

TEAYCHES
Jun 23, 2002

TacticalUrbanHomo posted:

lol if you think russia isn't a pretty hosed up thing considering, oh, I don't know, history the present day and the entire history of its existence

what do you think russia could realistically do considering its nationalistic stance? i mean how you deal with russia as it reasserts itself in its former sphere of influence

Moridin920
Nov 15, 2007

by FactsAreUseless

TEAYCHES posted:

the united states should focus on its own horrific internal problems, just like russia - we agree on this. you speak like russia doesnt have the same kind of weird nationalism driving along a hosed up society. russia and the united states are disturbingly similar

i dont think putin even had a plan for the ukraine crisis, they took crimea because it became convenient and because the people living there went along with it. maybe they will get some of the eastern Ukraine provinces. self determination, am i rite? looks like sudetenland and ww2 all over again, maybe, except its not, in a world of super powers. idk what to tell you

what do you want to happen? russia pulls back and ignores the anti-russia military alliance encirclement? that is fantasy

I think Russia needs to realize it is 2015 and 'military encirclement' isn't really a thing that matters in an age when you can just rain nuclear fire down on anyone who tries to invade your homeland. It's like a red herring the West is throwing up to get Russia to trip up on its shoelaces and steal its wallet.

Plus an invasion of Russia is not even on any western government's radar. it's just kind of a russian tom clancy paranoia situation going on.

TEAYCHES
Jun 23, 2002

like you can loathe russia and oppose everything it does and hate hate hate it but that isnt really a good approach to dealing with russia as a global player

Moridin920
Nov 15, 2007

by FactsAreUseless
Well yeah I don't think it'd be a good diplomatic move to tell Putin he's being a bitch I'm just kind of lolling at Russia in general.

TEAYCHES
Jun 23, 2002

Moridin920 posted:

I think Russia needs to realize it is 2015 and 'military encirclement' isn't really a thing that matters in an age when you can just rain nuclear fire down on anyone who tries to invade your homeland. It's like a red herring the West is throwing up to get Russia to trip up on its shoelaces and steal its wallet.

Plus an invasion of Russia is not even on any western government's radar. it's just kind of a russian tom clancy paranoia situation going on.

russia has the confidence of a relatively large economy with a huge nuclear arsenal and those are the only terms we can deal with them on, because they have no reason to gently caress on other grounds

this is a diplomacy simulator, and this is why the united states is so poo poo at it

all of these goon assumptions rely on hubris and basically making GBS threads on the agency of any other actor in a negotiation. you would all be horrible diplomats

Moridin920
Nov 15, 2007

by FactsAreUseless

TEAYCHES posted:

russia has the confidence of a relatively large economy with a huge nuclear arsenal and those are the only terms we can deal with them on, because they have no reason to gently caress on other grounds

this is a diplomacy simulator, and this is why the united states is so poo poo at it

all of these goon assumptions rely on hubris and basically making GBS threads on the agency of any other actor in a negotiation. you would all be horrible diplomats

Nah I wouldn't be like that in a negotiation I'm just giving you a rough 'here's what I think about the situation in general.'

Like I said I'm from Eastern Europe, I know the worst way to try and convince a slav of anything is to try and engage him in a hubris contest. Those fuckers free climb skyscrapers.

TEAYCHES
Jun 23, 2002

socialist internationalism is the only true way forward for any of us

lite frisk
Oct 5, 2013
as someone from eastern europe, lemme break it down for y'all in terms you can understand: the region is like a big prison yard, and you're the new arrival. now you got one guy who is known to like to gently caress rear end, and his dad hosed your dad's rear end and his granddad your granddad's rear end, and now he's lookin at you like "come here boy, we all know i got an inalienable right to your rear end."

now you know this dude is rough and you want to save your tender rear end, and you're (sort of) in luck because another dude shows up and he wants you to suck that dick. he's gonna probably maybe protect you from the assfucker and maybe even let you hussle some candy bars and smokes and you can make profit, nothing's really certain since he's been known to be a bailing bitch before, but you're hoping it won't happen this time.

it seems like you got a choice between getting assraped or sucking a lot of dick but you don't actually have that choice. it's more like if you don't suck the dick you're definitely gonna get assraped, but if you do suck it then there's still a chance you'll get assraped, but for now the rapist is just gonna stand real close eyefucking your cheeks and mocking you while you're on your knees sucking that dick.

this is what it's like being eastern eauropen.

killmeimmafailure
Apr 19, 2015

by Nyc_Tattoo
E: going to bed

Beef Turret
Jul 9, 2009

by Lowtax

TEAYCHES posted:

socialist internationalism is the only true way forward for any of us

Lol

TEAYCHES
Jun 23, 2002


the red flag is the only flag to be patriotic about

Kuato
Feb 25, 2005

"I CAN'T BELIEVE I ATE THE WHOLE THING"
Buglord

Prallax Litovsk posted:

as someone from eastern europe, lemme break it down for y'all in terms you can understand: the region is like a big prison yard, and you're the new arrival. now you got one guy who is known to like to gently caress rear end, and his dad hosed your dad's rear end and his granddad your granddad's rear end, and now he's lookin at you like "come here boy, we all know i got an inalienable right to your rear end."

now you know this dude is rough and you want to save your tender rear end, and you're (sort of) in luck because another dude shows up and he wants you to suck that dick. he's gonna probably maybe protect you from the assfucker and maybe even let you hussle some candy bars and smokes and you can make profit, nothing's really certain since he's been known to be a bailing bitch before, but you're hoping it won't happen this time.

it seems like you got a choice between getting assraped or sucking a lot of dick but you don't actually have that choice. it's more like if you don't suck the dick you're definitely gonna get assraped, but if you do suck it then there's still a chance you'll get assraped, but for now the rapist is just gonna stand real close eyefucking your cheeks and mocking you while you're on your knees sucking that dick.

this is what it's like being eastern eauropen.

Really makes you think. Wish a Presidential candidate would speak like this. I could see Joe Biden saying this come to think of it

TEAYCHES
Jun 23, 2002

bernie sanders has pretty milquetoast foreign policy if thats what you are getting at

TacticalUrbanHomo
Aug 17, 2011

by Lowtax

TEAYCHES posted:

what do you think russia could realistically do considering its nationalistic stance? i mean how you deal with russia as it reasserts itself in its former sphere of influence

personally I would like to move a carrier and a few destroyers into the black sea, obliterate the Russian fleet there, and then send the marines into crimea while the army rolls into ukraine proper

too bad I'm not in charge

lite frisk
Oct 5, 2013

Kuato posted:

Really makes you think. Wish a Presidential candidate would speak like this. I could see Joe Biden saying this come to think of it

thanks im contacting my electoral representative to let them know that the somethingawful dot com thinktak is on the case and making steady progress toward resolving this international crisis

Moridin920
Nov 15, 2007

by FactsAreUseless

TacticalUrbanHomo posted:

personally I would like to move a carrier and a few destroyers into the black sea, obliterate the Russian fleet there, and then send the marines into crimea while the army rolls into ukraine proper

too bad I'm not in charge

good job you've started a war over a useless piece of land that has nothing to do with us and now hundreds of thousands if not millions will die

TEAYCHES
Jun 23, 2002

TacticalUrbanHomo posted:

personally I would like to move a carrier and a few destroyers into the black sea, obliterate the Russian fleet there, and then send the marines into crimea while the army rolls into ukraine proper

too bad I'm not in charge

that would be a really bad idea

TacticalUrbanHomo
Aug 17, 2011

by Lowtax

Moridin920 posted:

good job you've started a war over a useless piece of land that has nothing to do with us and now hundreds of thousands if not millions will die

actually it's really important that russia is not allowed to keep crimea, millions of people dying is acceptable


TEAYCHES posted:

that would be a really bad idea

disagree

TEAYCHES
Jun 23, 2002

TacticalUrbanHomo posted:

actually it's really important that russia is not allowed to keep crimea, millions of people dying is acceptable


disagree

TacticalUrbanHomo
Aug 17, 2011

by Lowtax

lol that owns

anyway I'm not of the opinion that this would result in nuclear war. a nuclear response, from russia's perspective, would not have any utility in this scenario

what game is that btw I want it

Beef Turret
Jul 9, 2009

by Lowtax

TEAYCHES
Jun 23, 2002


Beef Turret
Jul 9, 2009

by Lowtax
Shadow President

TEAYCHES
Jun 23, 2002

Beef Turret posted:

Shadow President

Ork of Fiction
Jul 22, 2013

TEAYCHES posted:

also lol if you think ukraine is some democracy representing the peoples interest instead of a tug of war between elites on the western and russian side. there are no good guys here either

So you're saying that there is a country, where some sort of "elite" cadre actually runs everything and makes all the important decisions?

[img]ice-t is puzzled[img]

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TacticalUrbanHomo
Aug 17, 2011

by Lowtax

Beef Turret posted:

Shadow President

ty

I will pursue this and leave you guys to discuss nuclear policy from the perspective of a tom clancy ghostwriter

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