|
If a plot element in your game reminds people of a plot element in Thie4th it's probably a bad sign.
|
#
?
May 28, 2015 20:23
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 19:10 |
|
|
It's a predictable enough plot turn that I went all  when they actually did it.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2015 20:25
|
|
|
PlaceholderPigeon posted:If a plot element in your game reminds people of a plot element in Thie4th it's probably a bad sign. I'll say, that would imply that something from that game was actually memorable. Except for Jim Beam, RIP.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2015 20:26
|
|
|
Wayne posted:Sorry for anybody who wants to skip this stuff and just talk about how crazy Bioshock Infinite's plot gets. I don't think anyone cares but watching stupid back and forth "You're wrong", "no you're wrong" "debates" isn't really fun for anyone, especially Bobbin, whose thread we are making GBS threads on.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2015 20:28
|
|
|
Ghost Stromboli posted:Plus it sort of seemed like the game didn't need the rebellion, unless I'm forgetting some sort of significance it's supposed to have that ties into everything else. This part gets to me, why don't people just leave? Make some parachutes.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2015 20:29
|
|
|
Opiomorphone posted:I agree I will shut up about stuff. Was going to make a huge rebuttal post, In this case both you and Wayne are terrible and should never post in this thread again. I shall also not post again. Let it not be said I am unfair.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2015 20:36
|
|
|
Ghost Stromboli posted:Most of us at that moment are already well aware we are about to fight palette-swapped enemies for the next half of the game or so. Plus it sort of seemed like the game didn't need the rebellion, unless I'm forgetting some sort of significance it's supposed to have that ties into everything else. The rebellion's only narrative purpose is to act as a catalyst for the "Elizabeth does universe shifting and makes everything worse", you could replace the rebellion with anything else and it'd have the same narrative impact. The only saving grace of that whole segment is the audio logs with that 1 trapper "Big game hunter" archetype fellow who is great.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2015 20:39
|
|
|
JossiRossi posted:This part gets to me, why don't people just leave? Make some parachutes. Columbia burned a major city on the other side of the world to the ground before, so they might come after you. But yeah you'd think someone would have at least tried that.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2015 20:40
|
|
|
Stormgale posted:The rebellion's only narrative purpose is to act as a catalyst for the "Elizabeth does universe shifting and makes everything worse", you could replace the rebellion with anything else and it'd have the same narrative impact. The only saving grace of that whole segment is the audio logs with that 1 trapper "Big game hunter" archetype fellow who is great. And to show Elizabeth's naivete considering she learned everything she needs to know about rebellions from reading Les Miserables.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2015 20:41
|
|
|
Small Frozen Thing posted:In this case both you and Wayne are terrible and should never post in this thread again.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2015 20:41
|
|
|
Opiomorphone posted:I agree I will shut up about stuff. Was going to make a huge rebuttal post,  You're the first person who's ever let me have the last word on something like this. All differences aside,  and let me know if you want to follow up on this elsewhere sometime.One thing I don't [think?] I've seen anyone else mention yet-- my biggest problem with Infinite was actually with how over-the-top gory it is. It's kind of jarring to see the game condemning real-world atrocities (like the American Indian exhibit) and then Booker immediately rips a cop's head off with a buzzsaw to save his bullets. I'm not sure if that was deliberate (a la Spec Ops The Line) or not, but it got pretty uncomfortable at times. Small Frozen Thing posted:In this case both you and Wayne are terrible and should never post in this thread again. 
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2015 20:43
|
|
|
When you consider what we later learn about Booker and Comstock that particular aspect actually makes a lot of sense to me.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2015 20:45
|
|
|
Opiomorphone posted:That is fine normally I don't have much to add but "Good LP guys, keep it up!", so I probably won't be posting again mainly due to other people knowing more than me about Bioshock: Infinite.  JossiRossi posted:This part gets to me, why don't people just leave? Make some parachutes. According to Wikipedia, Parachutes have been invented but aren't widespread yet so it might a matter of nobody knowing how to manufacture or not having the proper materials for 'chutes. Then you factor in the universe hopping bullshit and massive holes start popping up in the line of reasoning.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2015 20:47
|
|
|
Wayne posted:
That was actually one of the big initial complaints people leveled on the game, but hearing anyone use the phrase 'ludonarrative dissonance' instantly makes my brain shut off so I just was going to leave it. The over the top gore doesn't feel like it was being used to make the player uncomfortable, or make any kind of statement actually. Its really one of the things about the game I will admit I honestly 'just don't understand'. Is it just because that's what shooters do these days?
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2015 20:48
|
|
|
I think the thing about Booker is that he isn't a nice person. But he has absolutely no illusions about himself being a nice person. That's the whole point of the Booker/Comstock divide. Comstock thinks that his baptism has not only absolved him of sin but remade him into a holy man, thus absolving him of fault from his future actions as well ("God forgives, but I'm just a man, so I don't have to.") Booker, on the other hand, knows that he is not a good man, and tries to accept the fault for his own actions. You know, circumstances involving time holes and babies notwithstanding, he did try to stop them once he realized the gravity of what he'd done.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2015 20:52
|
|
|
Kurieg posted:And to show Elizabeth's naivete considering she learned everything she needs to know about rebellions from reading Les Miserables. I feel that was kinda shown better by the beach chapter and 90% of her interactions in there, by that point her naivete had been all ready established.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2015 20:54
|
|
|
Klaus88 posted:According to Wikipedia, Parachutes have been invented but aren't widespread yet so it might a matter of nobody knowing how to manufacture or not having the proper materials for 'chutes. Then you factor in the universe hopping bullshit and massive holes start popping up in the line of reasoning. Nah, it's because in this scifi alt timeline they accidentally invented parachute pants that function as parachutes instead of the kind we think of. Naturally, the citizens of Columbia would rather risk death than to be seen wearing them.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2015 20:55
|
|
|
Gantolandon posted:This becomes obvious with the Vox Populi bit, which is the worst sort of "the truth is in the middle" bullshit. (Yes I did sit around doing nothing for a while hoping I could save Daisy's life over the kid's, why do you ask?)
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2015 21:08
|
|
|
Nalesh posted:I'm still 100% that it wasn't made by the "main team", because that part was actually fun I think you're nuts, a boss fight against a ghost mom's infinitely spawning waves of enemies. It was probably the nadir of it all, although I never played the DLC because why would I death .cab for qt posted:I thought the gameplay was severely limited and unfun. I'd even go so far as to say that Bioshock 2 had better gameplay. Infinite gives you boring weapons (which double up later, with no real benefit and a score of detriments) and lackluster tonics. The enemies are all the same with the exception of the very rare tonic enemy, president robots that are just large bullet sponges, and this game's unjustified Big Daddy clone. I would rather fight splicers and actual Big Daddies. Again, I'd say it plays mostly like Duke Nukem Forever. They both make the mistake of mixing Halo-style shield health and weapon scrounging with hitscan baddies who have simple AI.
DNF and BioInf take all of those and just sort of slap them together without considering the implications. Also, with really clumsy and bad weapons that aren't fun to use. BioInf also has magic powers, all but one or two of which do the exact same thing. Speaking of which, something I noticed while I was playing is that if you lay down a magical trap eventually a random enemy's pathfinding will guide it directly into the center of the trap, killing them. They had to do that because it's the only way laying down traps wouldn't be completely useless. That's sort of the guiding design ethos of latter-day Irrational: "the feature doesn't work, but instead of fixing it or scrapping it, let's just fake it and make it appear to work." Not that I blame the devs, God Only Knows
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2015 21:10
|
|
|
JossiRossi posted:This part gets to me, why don't people just leave? Make some parachutes. Well it's 1912 so Columbia is actually way better than real America was for minorities at the time. Not to mention apparently way easier to start an actual revolution in.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2015 21:20
|
|
|
Wayne posted:
But I don't think realism is really a topic for Bioshock: Infinite, I mean it is fun to try to imagine what it would take and the ramifications it would have, as the idea that a floating city being that high up in the air. Most people at that altitude, (At least according to the voice that tells you it's altitude) would have major altitude sickness. It would be kind of bemusing though because at that altitude, every enemy should have a huge advantage over Booker just because he hasn't really had the time to get acclimatized yet, and he would constantly be out of breath and probably very sick. They would probably need a huge amount of oxygen tanks for newcomers instead of that massive ?church? (It is probably too big to just a be a church and I don't know what different denominations of Christianity call their buildings) being partially flooded. It is also very creepy the whole American forefathers being some kind of deity. I am very certain that is the last thing they would ever want to happen. The whole idea of hero worship is always kind of bullshit though, ignore all the bad whilst exaggerating the good. Wayne posted:then Booker immediately rips a cop's head off with a buzzsaw to save his bullets. I'm not sure if that was deliberate (a la Spec Ops The Line) or not, but it got pretty uncomfortable at times. And regarding the horn thing, I would assume that the red light and horn noise were just reaffirming that the floating islands are actually in position. Otherwise Booker would have a nasty fate, drowning to death strapped to a rocket. I wonder how many universes that actually happened
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2015 21:20
|
|
|
pumpinglemma posted:Oh god, tell me about it. On the one side, we have generations of literal slavery. On the other side, we have the leader of the slave uprising killing one of the single biggest culprits in a slightly nasty way and trying to kill his apparently innocent son. Clearly both sides are equally in the wrong, and we must exterminate both to the last man. Bonus points for depicting the black people as savage and animalistic, exactly in line with the horribly racist society's stereotypes! Oh don't worry friend... that entire scene gets even better if you ever played burial at sea She was setup by the lutece's (though she agreed) to martyr herself to make Elizabeth a killer, she never intended to hurt the kid but was willing to die to get Comstock via Booker and Elizabeth)
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2015 21:21
|
|
|
I've seen very little of this game and heard very much, and am very interested in seeing this game for myself so I can come to a real conclusion. It sounds like it takes a turn for nihilism, a concept that seems alluring and educated at first, but after a while grows tiresome and shows to prove a limited view on things. It's why I got tired of ASOIAF.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2015 21:25
|
|
|
I'm fairly sure the abovementioned cop-ripping scene isn't just to save bullets but simply becaue Booker doesn't have any weapons at that point.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2015 21:30
|
|
|
It's weird. I've not managed to replay any Bioshock all the way through. B1 because it's downhill all the way after the twist (or probably Sander Cohen if you know the twist) - System Shock 2 fell to bits at the end, but at least didn't have a pointless escort quest. B2 I actually remember more fondly, but it sags in the middle when it forces you to do the gathers over and over again. B:I... I largely enjoyed. It's badly flawed in many ways, but I remember liking the ending (possibly only because it shied away form the "Oh ho-ho-ho! Because you are playing a videogame! Ahhhhhh!" ending I was worried it was going to have). But I've never touched it again, and I'm not quite sure why.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2015 21:43
|
|
|
We gave up on playing through Burial At Sea, so I started looking up things on the Bioshock Wiki. It is positively astounding how bad some of the narrative choices are. Major Bioshock Infinite and Burial At Sea Spoilers (spoiled, as while the OP says to not bother tagging B:I info, it doesn't say whether DLC spoilers are okay). So, apparently the invention of the vigor from B:I came from a tear that happened to go to the original Rapture of B1. It's drinkable adam, more or less. That is so outrageously boring. You have literally infinite universes, and you have go back to that one particular universe? Was there something special about that one that made it have Adam where no one else did? If not, why couldn't there just be a universe where they discovered similar things simultaneously? There's this concept called convergent evolution. It's where multiple species evolve the same thing without actually being related to each other. For instance, birds and bats are not both evolved from a single flying ancestor; they both just independently evolved to fly. The specific example I like to use is porcupines. There are actually two families of porcupine: Old World porcupines and New World porcupines. You might think the New World porcupines are just transplants from the days of exploration brought over from the Old World, but that isn't the case. They are native to the hemisphere. They aren't all that closely related, and they have some significant biological differences. Simply put, they exist because at some point two different fairly large rodents evolved sharp spines. It turns out that spines are a good idea. So, in this universe of literally infinite possibilities, couldn't we have had Columbia's earth 'covergently evolve' to discover similar ideas? Wouldn't that have been so much more satisfying? So much more intriguing? There might be some minor allusions that could explain these narrative choices (the stolen music, etc), but I cannot imagine them making enough difference to make it satisfactory.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2015 21:57
|
|
|
Magnetic North posted:We gave up on playing through Burial At Sea, so I started looking up things on the Bioshock Wiki. It is positively astounding how bad some of the narrative choices are. I don't think spoilers are necessary, and I kind of assumed that while playing the main game, I have never seen the DLC, so its at least hinted at? There are a few other references, Voxaphones and the songbird are also stolen from rapture I believe. I think this is made worse because, while Adam is absolutely essential to Rapture's downfall and Bioshock's story, vigors are completely ancillary to Infinite. They are such an obvious tacked on mechanic and its really a waste. The harvesting of Adam for them has been hand waved, as has their new drinkable nature. For some reason, the fake science in Infinite irritates me more than it did in Bioshock. I am not normally the kind of person who gets too irritated (maybe that's a lie), but it all feels like excessive hand waving. I can't really act like Bioshock's biology stuff was any more legitimate, but it had a verisimilitude that I feel is lacking in Infinite. To my knowledge they never really even bring up a real idea related to Quantum Mechanics in the entire game. None of it feels connected to a larger fiction or internal logic, they just do whatever they need to to make a gameplay mechanic or scene work.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2015 22:41
|
|
|
Bioshock's science never really went into detail beyond what it needed to do to exist. ADAM as a limited resource that provided seemingly unlimited 'self improvement' but at the cost of hollowing people out and driving them mad for more was more important to the story than the mechanics of any kind of genetic engineering. ADAM mattered for what it did to society, not how it worked, and how it worked was never necessary to the story, so the ridiculousness of a sea slug that allows you to shoot bees out of your hand never really needed to come front and center.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2015 22:50
|
|
|
I find it really annoying when modern media storytelling goes the low-scope route where everything has to connect to one another in some sort of way, rather than just letting the places be different and allow gameplay considerations like 'how do we get the player to have cool powers' to stand on their own.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2015 22:55
|
|
|
I feel the opposite mean in Bioshock 1 the player Plasmid powers are a massive part of examining the setting and how it functions: How an objectivist "utopia" would deal with that sort of genetic power. The problem with Vigors in 2 is actually what you said, they don't really ft into the world and have cool powers and the lazy "It's Plasmids but somehow without any of the downsides" answer only worsens it. Compare this to the musician brother using the portals to steal music and adapting it fits in well with the setting as the setting has informed the theft and made a balance between the original element and the Columbia version. While the songs are out of place to us they are still altered by Columbia (by changing genre/performance method for example) and the same with songbird, songbird is still a big daddy in it's role (protect a little girl at all costs and be a tough foe) but it's an avenging angel that fits Columbia's themes and setting more. I've thought a lot about how Vigors could more suit Columbia as a setting but that's just dumb backseat development N.B. Here Matt lees talks alot of the points that I feel are weakness' of Bioshock infinite and I feel this is a good examination of the games faults for anyone who wants a far more reasoned eloquent explanation than I can muster. Edit: I know I don't need to tag spoilers but obviously the video talks alot about elements of the game and shows later scenes/setpieces so if you want to keep yourself unspoiled/experience things as the lp goes on. Stormgale fucked around with this message at 23:09 on May 28, 2015 |
|
#
?
May 28, 2015 23:06
|
|
|
This thread is making me real glad I never picked up Burial at Sea. As soon as I saw it announced, I just assumed it was a cash-in on Bioshock 1 nostalgia, but those narrative choices are something else.  I really enjoyed Infinite playing through the first time, but the Vox Populi face turn was the loving worst. I specifically remember thinking "Why am I shooting these guys again? Oh, because VIDEO GAMES, I guess." Now that's giving the player motivation. smokyprogg fucked around with this message at 23:21 on May 28, 2015 |
|
#
?
May 28, 2015 23:18
|
|
|
smokyprogg posted:This thread is making me real glad I never picked up Burial at Sea. As soon as I saw it announced, I just assumed it was a cash-in on Bioshock 1 nostalgia, but those narrative choices are something else. I would have preferred if it were entirely just a cash in on the nostalgia of BS1 and it's own little vignette about Elizabeth exploring other universes to sate her curiosity but literally half of the DLC is talking about how Columbia and Rapture are intertwined and it's so forced it was terrible.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2015 23:36
|
|
|
I remember my first encounter with the songbird. I was already getting sick of being lead around the guided tour of Columbia and so decided to see what would happen if I stood completely still and waited for him to catch up during the oh-so-dramatic chase sequence. He never did, even when I turned back and walked back towards the start. Kind of set the stage for me to be thoroughly underwhelmed throughout the rest of the game.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2015 23:46
|
|
|
Stormgale posted:I feel the opposite mean in Bioshock 1 the player Plasmid powers are a massive part of examining the setting and how it functions: How an objectivist "utopia" would deal with that sort of genetic power. The problem with Vigors in 2 is actually what you said, they don't really ft into the world and have cool powers and the lazy "It's Plasmids but somehow without any of the downsides" answer only worsens it. Compare this to the musician brother using the portals to steal music and adapting it fits in well with the setting as the setting has informed the theft and made a balance between the original element and the Columbia version. While the songs are out of place to us they are still altered by Columbia (by changing genre/performance method for example) and the same with songbird, songbird is still a big daddy in it's role (protect a little girl at all costs and be a tough foe) but it's an avenging angel that fits Columbia's themes and setting more. I was more complaining about the trying to adapt something from Bioshock and making the explanation come from it rather than making Vigors a thing on their own. I agree, Plasmids being tied into the story was better. But I think in the case of Vigors, since they aren't tied to the story really its awkward that they half-try, rather than just letting them be there. I suppose they sort of have to explain it a little though, but I think making them unique to Columbia would have been better even if it wasnt as good of an explanation compared to Plasmids.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2015 23:52
|
|
|
Opiomorphone posted:And honestly no one has ever changed their political views with a debate. It takes people wanting to learn on their own to do that. Well, I'd say it takes both. I mean, an academic with a closed mind and an open-minded guy who never learns anything are both probably going to stay set in their ways (whatever those ways happen to be, heh). Debates are kind of unique in that they're not so much aimed at the other party but in the audience, so what's a debate for the debaters is more like a lecture for everybody else, since laymen tend to not keep up on facts (and opinions  ) that experts have. You do see "before and after" polls show big changes sometimes, I remember reading about a death penalty debate that swung around 20% of the audience (which way I can't remember, though, heh). anilEhilated posted:I'm fairly sure the abovementioned cop-ripping scene isn't just to save bullets but simply becaue Booker doesn't have any weapons at that point. Glad the thread wasn't moving so fast I didn't have time to nip this in the bud: it's not a specific cutscene or anything (though the fact that it's so plausible says a lot  ). What happened was that when my brother and I were playing the game, my turn happened to include a setpiece in an Indian war museum exhibit, and you get ambushed during that. I don't remember if it was during the big fight or right/before after it, but I ran low on ammo for both guns (revolver and carbine) and Liz would only toss me the former. If you're close enough, cops will use their nightsticks on you (I guess it's to give you a breather if you have to melee people). It was just one of those things where the game clearly wants you (and "you as Booker" since it's part of his backstory) to feel something, but it's hard to stay contemplative when you have to dismember security guards to save bullets for the tougher enemies, and all to... get to the next thing the game wants you to feel bad about. It really felt like the kind of awkward D&D session with new players when 4 out of 5 want to cast spells and bang elves or whatever and the last guy is all "Describe the gushing fountain my greatsword clove through its neck."
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2015 23:57
|
|
|
PlaceholderPigeon posted:I was more complaining about the trying to adapt something from Bioshock rather than making Vigors a thing on their own. Yeah sorry I think we are agreeing with each other here, I feel that when you try to tie things together working it into the narrative or letting the setting inform it (like with songbird) is better. Anyway to talk more about the game we have seen so far and quote the video I feel one of the weirdest thing about giving Booker a voice and character is how... little he has to say with all the passing people around here. I mean this would have been a great place to flesh out who he was and how he acts but he really doesn't talk much when presented with all this incidental dialogue
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2015 23:57
|
|
|
Ghost Stromboli posted:It's kinda depressing how much the Vox Populi remind me of the Graven from Thi4f, thinking about it now. To be fair, I'm rather certain that the comparison is there because Thi4f's developers were actively ripping off Bioshock Infinite. Say what you will about narrative merits, but at least Irrational came up with their own story. By the way, does anyone dislike the Luteces? Because I think that's the only opinion about BI that hasn't been expressed at this point. Constants and variables indeed...
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2015 00:06
|
|
|
Bobbin Threadbare posted:By the way, does anyone dislike the Luteces? Because I think that's the only opinion about BI that hasn't been expressed at this point. Constants and variables indeed... They fit right into the lovely supporting character niche of having an amusing gimmick and not showing up enough to wear it thin, see enjoyable side characters from almost any other "Bad" narrative. I love them just wanted to maybe examine why no one really hates them Edit: Garrand knows whats up. Stormgale fucked around with this message at 00:12 on May 29, 2015 |
|
#
?
May 29, 2015 00:09
|
|
|
Stormgale posted:N.B. Here Matt lees talks alot of the points that I feel are weakness' of Bioshock infinite and I feel this is a good examination of the games faults for anyone who wants a far more reasoned eloquent explanation than I can muster. He really expressed some of what I have been trying to say better than I have. I especially liked "Its a game that wants to blow your mind rather than encouraging you to use it.", which I think sums up why some old *shock fans are a bit down on it? I don't agree with him on everything, and I am bit more negative about the game than he was, but he describes a lot of the issues I've had with it as well. I feel a bit bad for how down on this game the thread generally is at this point though. I mean, it did some neat things, even if I am not a big fan of it. In terms of both visual and audio effects it is pretty interesting. Edit: I think the luteces brought a bit of light heartedness that the game was really missing. They never wear out their welcome, and are just the medicine some scenes needed. I legitimately played parts of the game just wondering when I would see them again.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2015 00:09
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 19:10 |
|
|
Bobbin Threadbare posted:By the way, does anyone dislike the Luteces? Because I think that's the only opinion about BI that hasn't been expressed at this point. Constants and variables indeed... Because the Lutece's have only a limited amount of screen time that consists largely of funny bantering with each other. While they technically have a central role in the story as a whole they don't actually do that much in the game so they don't tarnish their amusing image. Well, until the DLC.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2015 00:09
|
|