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bhlaab posted:Bioshock had stupid enemies who weren't really fun to fight at all... The only standouts were the Big Daddies, by virtue of them being big and slow enough that you could execute strategies like laying traps or drawing aggro etc. It was usually more effective to just shoot at them until they died, but whatever. You could make your own fun if you wanted to. As much as I loved them, the Big Daddies were never the challenge they sounded like they were meant to be. Considering death meant nothing it may have been better to make them almost too overpowered rather than simple enough for anyone to be able to kill them more or less whenever. I don't think they even tried to make the variants behave differently or have different strengths/weaknesses. They may have had a slight difference in equipment now and then but I don't remember anything that made one particular encounter more dangerous than the next. Unfortunately because they were tied to the skill upgrade system by virtue of protecting the things that give you points, they had to be an enemy any casual player could feasibly take down with at least some effort. It would be nice to one day have a Big Daddy sort of enemy that is completely optional with a huge reward attached, so they can actually make it a tough fight without impeding progress for some players. (I'm sure that enemy already exists in some game somewhere) Stormgale posted:N.B. Here Matt lees talks alot of the points that I feel are weakness' of Bioshock infinite and I feel this is a good examination of the games faults for anyone who wants a far more reasoned eloquent explanation than I can muster. I really like this video. The brief mention of Dishonored was also funny considering how often it was brought up in Bobbin's last thread. Dishonored had a few small things it never dealt too much with after introducing, although I think they were small details to begin with. It felt like that other mystery continent was going to have some influence on the story but as I remember the game it never amounted to much more than something you'd read about in a collectible. Seems like the mentions of failed expeditions and unknown horrors were supposed to tie into Dunwall's decay somehow. But focusing on Infinite again - it has such an interesting theme to work with, but leaves it hanging halfway. And I'm only referring to the American Exceptionalism stuff. At one point you're literally having giant cartoon Indians pop out at you from either side, but once the Vox Populi portion starts up everything interesting dies down. I'd say if anyone had negative reactions to the game at launch because of excessive racism, it was probably due to the fact that none of that ever really goes anywhere. The game has this brief racism in it because it's going for this particular angle on American history, but because the game plays out the way it does it has nothing to add with it in the end. Personally when I played the game I filled in the blanks and knew what point they were going for, so at the time it didn't seem like much of a big deal. Still doesn't because you know they just wanted something interesting to go for, but as it was said in the video Infinite is spread very thin in its attempt to play with all its ideas. e: Also, haven't touched the DLC but the Luteces were always at the very least interesting. I can't speak to how much sense their role makes, because the end itself is still too confusing to me. But they were definitely interesting to me, so for that alone I like them. Ghost Stromboli fucked around with this message at 00:18 on May 29, 2015 |
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May 29, 2015 00:14
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Probably the only thing about Vigors that made me laugh is Suchong getting pissed at fink for extravagantly wasting Adam on making a plasmid that you can drink rather than one you have to inject. Though that does raise the question of where the hell Fink is getting that much goddamn Adam.
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May 29, 2015 00:16
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Bobbin Threadbare posted:To be fair, I'm rather certain that the comparison is there because Thi4f's developers were actively ripping off Bioshock Infinite. Say what you will about narrative merits, but at least Irrational came up with their own story. Yes, I really hate them. Garrand posted:Because the Lutece's have only a limited amount of screen time that consists largely of funny bantering with each other. While they technically have a central role in the story as a whole they don't actually do that much in the game so they don't tarnish their amusing image. Well, until the DLC. Yeah, the problem is I found them to be aggressively the opposite of everything they were supposed to be. Amusing, clever, witty, mysterious. I nicknamed them Dr. Who and Dr. Cares which I was pleased with myself for. So they gave me some amount of fun I suppose. bhlaab fucked around with this message at 00:32 on May 29, 2015 |
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May 29, 2015 00:24
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Kurieg posted:Though that does raise the question of where the hell Fink is getting that much goddamn Adam. Infinite universes of sea floor slugs to harvest + not really thinking about vigors.
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May 29, 2015 00:25
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Kurieg posted:Probably the only thing about Vigors that made me laugh is Suchong getting pissed at fink for extravagantly wasting Adam on making a plasmid that you can drink rather than one you have to inject. There's an audio log where Fink is bitching about the undersea ventures to get the Adam are eating up huge chunks of his profit margin. I have no idea if he is supposed to be getting them from his world or actually sending expeditions through a tear and into Rapture's world.
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May 29, 2015 00:27
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I recently decided to give the game a try. I was really enjoying the visuals, was intrigued by the Letuces, and was getting slowly unsettled by what the citizens were saying. Then the raffle happened. It was disturbing, but not enough to push me out of the game. What DID push me out was that Booker shredded an assailant's face without my control. I quit the game right there. I really hate visceral violence in my media. My sense of empathy just couldn't handle it. I chose to believe/pretend that it was a Spec Ops kind of game, where the best ending is the one where you turn back before doing any harm. I intend to follow this LP with great interest, especially for the lectures on the context.
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May 29, 2015 00:57
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HomestarCanter posted:I recently decided to give the game a try. I was really enjoying the visuals, was intrigued by the Letuces, and was getting slowly unsettled by what the citizens were saying. Then the raffle happened. It was disturbing, but not enough to push me out of the game. What DID push me out was that Booker shredded an assailant's face without my control. I quit the game right there. I really hate visceral violence in my media. There's a video in Burial at sea 2 that you're not going to be able to watch then. hell *I* wasn't able to watch it, and that stuff normally doesn't bother me.
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May 29, 2015 01:12
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Kurieg posted:There's a video in Burial at sea 2 that you're not going to be able to watch then. Yes, that part in Burial at Sea really made me cringe.  You get to enjoy a first-person experience of a lobotomy through your loving eyesocket.I quickly adapted to the rather visceral murder of people with the skyhook, since close-up violence is sort of a cornerstone of the series. Oddly enough aside from the start there aren't many situations where you're forced to really do that, if my memory serves me correctly. I guess I pay more attention to gameplay than narrative/story really, which probably contributes to how I didn't find the whole of Infinite to be too offensive. that said, I do enjoy the Luteces, even if most of the time I didn't quite catch what they're bantering about. Here's to this LP to let me focus more on that!
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May 29, 2015 01:23
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The candles that you were trying to think of are votive candles, Bobbin. While you might light them in remembrance and the like, they're really there to carry you're prayers up on the smoke. The Roman Catholic church, like English did to language, knocked other religions aside the head and went through their pockets for looser catechisms. My mom's side of the family is Catholic (and half Castillian) while my dad's side of the family is Church of Christ/cowboy church and is Scot-Irish. Hearing my dad, a convert, try to explain Fatima and the like to my increasingly horrified relatives this Memorial Day sure was a hell of a thing. Be interesting to see what you come up with.
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May 29, 2015 01:33
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I'm pretty sure that Comstock's church is supposed to be based off of the Baptist church, for various reasons (Specifically the full body immersion). But he's stolen the trappings from some other Christian faiths as it suits him.
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May 29, 2015 01:40
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Oh, yes, this game. One of the previews of the game had the reviewer commenting that he was enjoying wandering around in a nice city and then he wandered into a bar and the game automatically smashed someone's face into pulp. And he abruptly went from enjoying the experience to being yanked out and going, "Oh, right, video games..." I had some of the same experience. The combat didn't feel dynamic and interesting enough to me to really justify it barging in on my exploration and quiet world-building. Never bought the DLC. Didn't ever finish my 1999 run. Look forward to hearing Bobbin's views and corners, though.
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May 29, 2015 02:50
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Kurieg posted:I'm pretty sure that Comstock's church is supposed to be based off of the Baptist church, for various reasons (Specifically the full body immersion). But he's stolen the trappings from some other Christian faiths as it suits him. There's some strong Baptist and Anabaptist sentiments in there yeah, along with some good ol' weird Pentacostal stuff and the like as well as the Latter Day Saints. Been a while since i played it though. Look forward to that lecture when it comes across.
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May 29, 2015 05:28
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I did enjoy BSI, but it still wasn't the game I've been hoping for since Bioshock first came out. What I got was a very passable shooter with a decent-veering-toward-batshit story, with some cool artwork and set pieces. But neither of the Bioshock games, nor this one, have really been a spiritual successor to System Shock 2; and something about the claim that they are really bothers me. Dishonored can be played as a spiritual successor to the original Thief games, in pretty much every sense. You sneak around most missions lifting valuables and picking pockets, with the same thrill of success. Combat aside from one-hit incapacitation is completely optional if you're good enough, the feel of mobility and the ability to escape confrontations are pretty much identical. There are enemies you cannot incapacitate quietly, there exist direct confrontations that will lead to your death the first time you play through, and there are areas where running through like Leeroy Jenkins will result in you getting your face kicked in. You are the sneaky bastard whacking guys while their backs are turned and pilfering their stuff. Dishonored plays like Thief or Thief 2, if you're so inclined. In BSI, Booker DeWitt is Rambo Superstar. Oh no, you dropped your gun down the rocketship at the beginning. Big deal. You pick up guns and superpowers fifteen minutes in, you mow down Contrast this with your first trip down to Cargo in Engineering of System Shock 2. You've witnessed the horror of the entire crew turning into mind-controlled space zombies, and beaten them back with nothing but a wrench. You've scavenged a health hypo or two out of crates, been barred off from other areas because you can't hack in with the skills you've chosen. You've probably tripped an alarm or two along the way, and gotten in way over your head. On this floor you've just run through radiation-contaminated hallways, burning through your health hypos, and you are decidedly NOT at full health. You have a working shotgun at durability 3 with an unknown handful of shots in it before it stops working, a nearly-broken pistol with 2 types of special ammo you're not sure if you should use yet, and a loving wrench. You hear a disembodied almost-human groaning from behind one of the doors. Behind the other is an exploding C3-PO robot and what sounds like a clunking combat bot on pneumatic struts. You aren't being shot at immediately, but as soon as one of those doors opens you're in deep poo poo. You are most assuredly NOT in control of the situation. And yet, how you fail will be of your own choosing, and your own fault. Even after you get a bit better situated, more things get thrown at you to keep that pacing and that lack of control-- no cheating on behalf of the game, no "hahaha I took all your stuff away" a la Half-Life and the garbage chute, postponing the five minutes it will take for you to arm and equip yourself to Superman status again. Just the inevitable crawl of entropy and the endless waves of more powerful worm zombies battering at your limited resources, convincing you that if you stay put and try to fight it out you will die (a perception reinforced by the audio logs left behind by those who tried exactly that). Meanwhile you're caught between far superior forces trying to subvert your actions to their whims, who also maintain the impression that they will discard you as soon as you're no longer useful. You are on your own, kid. So someone explain to me what exactly SS2 has in common with Bioshock 1 or 2 or BSI again, and how is this supposed to be a spiritual successor? Because I'm obviously missing it.
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May 29, 2015 08:15
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rabiddeity posted:So someone explain to me what exactly SS2 has in common with Bioshock 1 or 2 or BSI again, and how is this supposed to be a spiritual successor? Because I'm obviously missing it. Nothing, really. SS2 was a horror game, after all. The Bioshocks have never really been horror. They have horrific happenings and all, but they do not focus on building tension and they certainly don't focus on shepherding limited resources while faced with theoretically unlimited opposition.
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May 29, 2015 09:26
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It was a PR campaign, really. The premise of a shooter-based RPG with extremely hostile environment that makes you scavenge for supplies and choose your fights carefully. It just didn't happen.
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May 29, 2015 09:35
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rabiddeity posted:So someone explain to me what exactly SS2 has in common with Bioshock 1 or 2 or BSI again, and how is this supposed to be a spiritual successor? Because I'm obviously missing it. To be fair, if you know what you're doing and approach the game without the desire to be sucked in, System Shock 2 can wind up playing like a decent shooter with ugly models and a lot of annoying busywork and platform sections. I'm not trying to say one game or another is superior, but I am saying that if you approach SS2 from this angle, then remove the atmosphere and clever writing that was added by the Thief Trilogy developers and finally streamline some of the busywork, the line from System Shock to BioShock becomes clearer.
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May 29, 2015 13:43
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Can I just mention that hearing a twisted version of "Dayeinu" from these pseudo-protestants made me feel rather uncomfortable? I mean, I know they're going for that, but... I don't know. Is it enough to say that they're engaging in cultural appropriation, which is bad, because they're villains, or can I consider that the authors themselves are engaging in the cultural appropriation themselves and twisting it to make a part of my heritage part of the evil? I'd say I was overthinking it, but I believe this is the perfect thread for overthinking.
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May 29, 2015 16:01
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Night10194 posted:Nothing, really. SS2 was a horror game, after all. The Bioshocks have never really been horror. They have horrific happenings and all, but they do not focus on building tension and they certainly don't focus on shepherding limited resources while faced with theoretically unlimited opposition. The original Bioshock looks as though it would be a survival-horror game. The setting itself is appropriately desolate and creepy to fit the role. However, the gameplay really doesn't back that up in any way. Early on the first Bioshock has some semblance of that sort of survival experience, but I'd say by the time you pass that doctor in the beginning the survival feel is largely gone.
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May 29, 2015 16:12
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I enjoyed Infinite for all of the little anachronistic touches that the game added, the barbershop quartet doing "God Only Knows" is one of my favorite unexpected videogame moments.
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May 29, 2015 17:13
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Ghost Stromboli posted:The original Bioshock looks as though it would be a survival-horror game. The setting itself is appropriately desolate and creepy to fit the role. However, the gameplay really doesn't back that up in any way. Early on the first Bioshock has some semblance of that sort of survival experience, but I'd say by the time you pass that doctor in the beginning the survival feel is largely gone. Bioshock is creepy for all of 5 minutes after you enter Rapture, then you get electricity powers and it becomes your standard shoot-em-up, only now you can shove bees at people with your brain.
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May 29, 2015 17:16
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Ghost Stromboli posted:The original Bioshock looks as though it would be a survival-horror game. The setting itself is appropriately desolate and creepy to fit the role. However, the gameplay really doesn't back that up in any way. Early on the first Bioshock has some semblance of that sort of survival experience, but I'd say by the time you pass that doctor in the beginning the survival feel is largely gone. Yeah, you start off needing to scrounge for bullets and supplies pretty much anywhere you can and relying on melee because guns/bullets are rare. That very quickly changes into normal shooter mentality where you can fire that grenade launcher all day long.
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May 29, 2015 17:26
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kalonZombie posted:Bioshock is creepy for all of 5 minutes after you enter Rapture, then you get electricity powers and it becomes your standard shoot-em-up, only now you can shove bees at people with your brain. Bioshock 2 was only really creepy in how fundamentally broken the people of rapture were. The Spider Splicer in particular. Excusing the central conceit of Lamb being alive and in Rapture in the first place, she created a cult full of fanatics in need of killing for getting between you and your daughter. The horror wasn't in what they could do to you (since you were functionally immortal, yay Alpha series big daddies) but what they were doing to the little sisters, and what they wanted to do as their end goal.
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May 29, 2015 17:40
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Iunnrais posted:Can I just mention that hearing a twisted version of "Dayeinu" from these pseudo-protestants made me feel rather uncomfortable? I mean, I know they're going for that, but... I don't know. Is it enough to say that they're engaging in cultural appropriation, which is bad, because they're villains, or can I consider that the authors themselves are engaging in the cultural appropriation themselves and twisting it to make a part of my heritage part of the evil? I'd say I was overthinking it, but I believe this is the perfect thread for overthinking. I don't think you're supposed to be reacting to the Comstock Cult in any way other than 'man, gently caress those guys'. Stealing from other religions is like, everything that cult does.
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May 29, 2015 20:16
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HopperUK posted:I don't think you're supposed to be reacting to the Comstock Cult in any way other than 'man, gently caress those guys'. Stealing from other religions is like, everything that cult does. To be fair, it's what just about every religion in history does. People have neighbors, they talk to their neighbors, they share traditions and stories, they try to convince their neighbors their stories are better, etc. Every religion that has ever existed will display elements from other religions, and someone like Comstock is basically intentionally amping it up to try to create a cult that basically makes him the Christ figure. Thinking on the game, I don't think you ever hear Christ invoked, just The Prophet and the Founders.
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May 29, 2015 20:20
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Bobbin Threadbare posted:To be fair, if you know what you're doing and approach the game without the desire to be sucked in, System Shock 2 can wind up playing like a decent shooter with ugly models and a lot of annoying busywork and platform sections. I'm not trying to say one game or another is superior, but I am saying that if you approach SS2 from this angle, then remove the atmosphere and clever writing that was added by the Thief Trilogy developers and finally streamline some of the busywork, the line from System Shock to BioShock becomes clearer. You mean if you take System Shock 2 and make it worse you get Bioshock
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May 29, 2015 20:48
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bhlaab posted:You mean if you take System Shock 2 and make it worse you get Bioshock I think the argument is if you look at how you interact with the gamespace, like the specific core game loop and gameplay.
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May 29, 2015 20:53
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bhlaab posted:I think you're nuts, a boss fight against a ghost mom's infinitely spawning waves of enemies. It was probably the nadir of it all, although I never played the DLC because why would I It's probably just cause I went back to the mindset of what I do the most, wave based shooters like Killing Floor or Warframe 
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May 29, 2015 21:04
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Night10194 posted:Thinking on the game, I don't think you ever hear Christ invoked, just The Prophet and the Founders. The only reference to Christ I can recall are the quote in one of the beams when the rocket desends after landing in Columbia. While it may have been a conscious choice to the cult Comstock had build around himself and America, it made the religion of Columbia feel more like a generic religion with Christian iconography. But that might just be me.
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May 29, 2015 21:47
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Stormgale posted:I think the argument is if you look at how you interact with the gamespace, like the specific core game loop and gameplay. Remove the atmosphere, the clever writing, completely break the economy and character advancement systems, and streamline out anything that isn't killing the same randomly spawning monsters over and over again...
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May 29, 2015 22:03
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Parenthesis posted:The only reference to Christ I can recall are the quote in one of the beams when the rocket desends after landing in Columbia. It doesn't though, it just refers to "the savior". quote:Why would he send his savior unto us. Followed immediately by the capsule opening up and revealing this.  Note that the quote does not refer to God, or Jesus, but just a generic "He". I'm pretty sure that you're meant to, at least in part, think that the Savior is Comstock, or at the very least that he views himself on par with Christ.
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May 29, 2015 22:14
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They don't obfuscate who the Savior is, it is entirely meant to be Comstock. The Church of Comstock seems to have God, the Triumvirate of the Fathers (Washington, Jefferson, Franklin), and the Savior, Comstock. A Cosmology corner might be interesting, since I'm not sure if there's an OTL religion (outside of some cult or other) that is like Comstock's.
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May 29, 2015 23:28
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As there are so many Christian sects in America, being a "Christian" is about as specific as someone saying they're "European". The Prophet stuff, as I took it as I played it, was a comment on people putting faith in a belief rather than faith in a religion, and really confusing beliefs and religion. Comstock's schitck is that he doesn't claim to be a "holy man", but he has two very important pivot points to his claim of power: 1) Divine intervention begins the quest to Eden 2) The Lamb, My Child, shall be your salvation However, between those two points, there's a river of grey area that Comstock has the ability to weave a narrative that is to his direct benefit. A city in the clouds? You build it, I oversee it. That pretty woman who is absolutely devoted to my cause? She's a saint and shall bear the Lamb between us! America telling us to tone it down a notch? Well gently caress them, they were Sodom all along and everyone else here can decide who's a real Colombian like me and the three Founding Fathers, who totally would have dug our plan. Questioning my decisions? "VOX POPULI AND AGENTS OF THE FALSE SHEPARD! For every major milestone in Columbia's evolution, there's a religious contrivance that justifies any sudden changes in tone. Yet there wasn't any actual, real religion behind Columbia, it was all belief in a soothsayer. Someone they thought represented the best of them who also happened to be espousing familiar tones of their religion. Word of the Prophet becomes gospel, and the new holy text is written by the rantings and ravings of a man in charge. As to why the Vox didn't just leave Columbia, I thought why not as well. But looking down at the sky below, the Vox were trapped on Columbia. No way in hell would Columbia make scrubs and undesirables parachutes in which to leave, and no airship captain would allow so many on his blimp. It was really a response of "You want to leave, there's your exit." So suicide wasn't something the Vox were keen on.
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May 30, 2015 01:57
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I considered Comstock's whole deal to be more of a cult of personality. While it keeps the religious themes, imagery, and lingo the entire church as it exists relies solely on Comstock himself to work. The difference between placing faith in some holy 'higher power' versus directly into a physical human being.
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May 30, 2015 03:04
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I guess I believe the citizens of Columbia are more culpable to this exaggerated vision of Americana than simply a wayward flock. The mob rules and that kinda thing. The major events like the Orient Massacre and Lady Comstock's "upcoming" death riled the mob into demanding action in a certain direction, mostly demanding blood and retribution. While he was in certain cases, Comstock wasn't complicit with every event.
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May 30, 2015 03:34
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The overthetop violence does serve the narrative. So many times Booker tries to say he's not this, or not that when he does horribly aggressive and violent acts. The often mentioned museum set piece brings this up several times.
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May 30, 2015 06:07
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Bootcha posted:As to why the Vox didn't just leave Columbia, I thought why not as well. But looking down at the sky below, the Vox were trapped on Columbia. No way in hell would Columbia make scrubs and undesirables parachutes in which to leave, and no airship captain would allow so many on his blimp. It was really a response of "You want to leave, there's your exit." So suicide wasn't something the Vox were keen on. Also the vox populi, or rather the group of people who feed it's ranks, are entirely the backbone of life on Columbia. Their work is what allows the upper class oppressors to live in such excess. They wouldn't be allowed to leave because for all the hate the Columbians hold for the lower classes they cannot live without them. You know just like in real life. It's still babby's first criticism of socioeconomic class, yet it manages to fly over so many people's heads. Rigged Death Trap fucked around with this message at 15:38 on May 30, 2015 |
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May 30, 2015 15:17
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Rigged Death Trap posted:Also the vox populi, or rather the group of people who feed it's ranks, are entirely the backbone of life on Columbia. Their work is what allows the upper class oppressors to live in such excess. They wouldn't be allowed to leave because for all the hate the Columbians hold for the lower classes they cannot live without them. Until you get to finkton, when it turns around and starts flying into their heads repeatedly.
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May 30, 2015 15:27
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Kurieg posted:Until you get to finkton, when it turns around and starts flying into their heads repeatedly. And yet some people STILL don't get it.
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May 30, 2015 15:32
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"They may be oppressed, but trust me, they're no angels." -- VOX News. That whole segment of the game I had the longest of sighs.
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May 30, 2015 15:45
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kalonZombie posted:And yet some people STILL don't get it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_u18_BKczg This springs into mind.
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May 30, 2015 16:39
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