TG July Chat Thread: Practical Transhumanist Roleplaying

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Plutonis: Mar 25, 2011

Yeah that sounds cool but it's not really what I was looking for but it's still worth a look.

# ? Jul 31, 2015 19:11

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# ? Apr 19, 2024 01:31

mycot: Oct 23, 2014; "It's okay. There are other Terminators! Just give us this one!"; Hell Gem

Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

You are coming across as incredibly insecure. If you haven't read the whole book - so that you see how this passage slots into the work as a whole - you are doing yourself a disservice. Get some context.

Do you like hurting people?

# ? Jul 31, 2015 19:53

Megaman's Jockstrap: Jul 16, 2000; What a horrible thread to have a post.

mycot posted:

Do you like hurting people?

Sorry, this isn't the Voight-Kampff testing thread, that's in another forum.

# ? Jul 31, 2015 20:03

01011001: Dec 26, 2012

TheLovablePlutonis posted:

Ohhh that does sound pretty cool and I might try it... Although what I really want is a TRPG that is on the same "Real Robot" genre and related mechanics as Armored Core, Front Mission or hell, even Mechwarrior, although ever since Mekton (which was better played for Super Robot genre games any way) there weren't many of those.

This might still be a little far afield but look up Lunar Reckoning 69. It's not complete as far as I know but it's been in a relatively playable form for a good while.

# ? Jul 31, 2015 20:23

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Are there any traditional fantasy/D&D-type games that are specifically designed for or would work well with just 2 players+a DM? I know pretty much every edition of D&D ever has assumed 4 to 5 players, and I'd like something with a bit more crunch than Dungeon World.

# ? Jul 31, 2015 21:05

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

Wasn't sure if this belonged in Chat or Grogstxt.

https://medium.com/kickstarter/total-party-kill-3898fb82b5fb

# ? Jul 31, 2015 21:14

remusclaw: Dec 8, 2009

Siivola posted:

Racing is just as simple to gamify as violence, and I'd argue it also lends itself to better models of both reality and fiction. Tradgame violence hardly ever resembles the action movie spectacle, and many video games struggle as well.

This is my bimonthly rant against violence in games.

It's just a big loving rut we've been stuck in since Gary wrote that stupid wargame supplement. A bunch of dudes wander deep into a perilous dungeon, risking their lives for treasure, which is cool and all, but every sodding game since has followed the formula of "A bunch of dudes [delve/stumble/are drawn] deep into [danger], risking their lives for [a commodity or goal]." And I just realized the common denominator here isn't violence, it's that lives are at stake. You just can't have drama without the highest stakes am I right? Violence is the easiest solution because it's all about them lives at stake.

And even that's been hosed up now that we're all too cynical to believe the protagonist would ever die, or at least not get better. Now it's other people's lives that are actually on the line, because that's the easiest way to keep stakes high while making sure the game won't grind to halt at failure and we can sell the next part of the adventure path to these guys.

True about racing, though I would say that it shares about as much commonality with reality as game violence does. I spend most racing games doing escalating bits of cars violence to my opponents as I run them into divides and use their cars to help get me around corners.

I really like the idea of gaming things other than violence. Where it hits the snag as I said was in being fun first of all, and second in not trivializing it. I have seen long screeds written about gaming companies doing it the wrong way, with Pathfinder and its numbers based romance in their adventure paths sticking out in my mind. People find non violent activities to be important, and so modeling it requires at least as much care as does modeling violence, but what is the right way to do that? Bioware style dialog trees are a new fun way to play a choose your own adventure, limited by needing to funnel you through the same set pieces regardless of your choices. Free-form is what people have been doing for forever when it comes to social interaction, and it works except when it doesn't, but it really isn't part of the game, it relies on the player and the game-master to be on the same page to get any results worth getting, and also necessitates player skill over all else. Skill rules tend toward a dry treatment of such things, the most mechanically consistent and by far most boring approach. Finally there are games like Fate where everything is combat, or more specifically, combat is the same as everything else, and here we hit the problem of whether everything should be modeled in the same way as combat. Does that trivialize violence or does it de-emphasize it as the only solution? I don't have answers, but violence, while a fun part of gaming, shouldn't be the end all of what it consists.

Drama. Have we stripped all the drama from violence? I cant remember the last time an action movie had me tense about the fate of the hero or his or her loved one. Death in video games means a short bit of backtracking and in an RPG it generally means a resurection or a new character being rolled. I don't mean games should be all about PKing, but are we averse to drama as a society? Is that why we stick to no consequences violence and avoid political drama or relationship drama, is it all too awkward for us to engage with? Alternatively, is this just a symptom of escapist entertainment, not to engaged with beyond how it makes us feel in the moment and discarded at a whim as we get back to our lives?

remusclaw fucked around with this message at 21:46 on Jul 31, 2015

# ? Jul 31, 2015 21:28

ProfessorCirno: Feb 17, 2011; The strongest! The smartest!
The rightest!

The idea that ALL MEDIA FOREVER involves a lot of violence because of crazy ol' Gygax and his wargames is pretty silly at best. Violence in a fictional setting can be and is pretty exciting - as the entire history of human beings telling stories goes. Before video games there were TV shows which were fine with using violence or the threat thereof to raise the stakes. Before that there were movies - hell, in 1903 The Great Train Robbery, grainy black and white with no sound, had an evil outlaw draw his gun up to shoot the audience. Are we going to claim books never had violence? That war has never been glorified in stories? How many mythological characters don't kill a dude? How many stories of heroism don't involve violence?

This isn't to say all games forever need to be about peoples' lives in danger, but to rail that it happens at all is kinda out there.

The problem with violence in tabletop games is that it's so often boring. But that's because for plenty of tabletop games everything is. It's all cold, passionless, and clinical. That's a hard one to fix when the only real conflict resolution that seems to exist is rolling some dice, but the neverending push for "immersive" games that abandon emotion for trying to be as "realistic" as possible sure as hell doesn't help. What sucks out the fun of throwing a fireball faster then using that space to explain the exact dimensions of it and telling players to bring out a ruler?

# ? Jul 31, 2015 21:51

Covok: May 27, 2013; Yet where is that woman now? Tell me, in what heave does she reside? None of them. Because no God bothered to listen or care. If that is what you think it means to be a God, then you and all your teachings are welcome to do as that poor women did. And vanish from these realms forever.

remusclaw posted:

True about racing, though I would say that it shares about as much commonality with reality as game violence does. I spend most racing games doing escalating bits of cars violence to my opponents as I run them into divides and use their cars to help get me around corners.

I really like the idea of gaming things other than violence. Where it hits the snag as I said was in being fun first of all, and second in not trivializing it. I have seen long screeds written about gaming companies doing it the wrong way, with Pathfinder and its numbers based romance in their adventure paths sticking out in my mind. People find non violent activities to be important, and so modeling it requires at least as much care as does modeling violence, but what is the right way to do that? Bioware style dialog trees are a new fun way to play a choose your own adventure, limited by needing to funnel you through the same set pieces regardless of your choices. Free-form is what people have been doing for forever when it comes to social interaction, and it works except when it doesn't, but it really isn't part of the game, it relies on the player and the game-master to be on the same page to get any results worth getting, and also necessitates player skill over all else. Skill rules tend toward a dry treatment of such things, the most mechanically consistent and by far most boring approach. Finally there are games like Fate where everything is combat, or more specifically, combat is the same as everything else, and here we hit the problem of whether everything should be modeled in the same way as combat. Does that trivialize violence or does it de-emphasize it as the only solution? I don't have answers, but violence, while a fun part of gaming, shouldn't be the end all of what it consists.

Drama. Have we stripped all the drama from violence? I cant remember the last time an action movie had me tense about the fate of the hero or his or her loved one. Death in video games means a short bit of backtracking and in an RPG it generally means a resurection or a new character being rolled. I don't mean games should be all about PKing, but are we averse to drama as a society? Is that why we stick to no consequences violence and avoid political drama or relationship drama, is it all too awkward for us to engage with? Alternatively, is this just a symptom of escapist entertainment, not to engaged with beyond how it makes us feel in the moment and discarded at a whim as we get back to our lives?

Nah, we just like blowing poo poo up sometimes and like engaging works other times. poo poo don't always have to be one way or the other. If you want a thought engaging thing, seek an indie title. Why? Because big titles seek the lowest common denominator since that maximizes profit. That and the average person is just looking for a diversion.

# ? Jul 31, 2015 21:52

remusclaw: Dec 8, 2009

ProfessorCirno posted:

The idea that ALL MEDIA FOREVER involves a lot of violence because of crazy ol' Gygax and his wargames is pretty silly at best. Violence in a fictional setting can be and is pretty exciting - as the entire history of human beings telling stories goes. Before video games there were TV shows which were fine with using violence or the threat thereof to raise the stakes. Before that there were movies - hell, in 1903 The Great Train Robbery, grainy black and white with no sound, had an evil outlaw draw his gun up to shoot the audience. Are we going to claim books never had violence? That war has never been glorified in stories? How many mythological characters don't kill a dude? How many stories of heroism don't involve violence?

This isn't to say all games forever need to be about peoples' lives in danger, but to rail that it happens at all is kinda out there.

The problem with violence in tabletop games is that it's so often boring. But that's because for plenty of tabletop games everything is. It's all cold, passionless, and clinical. That's a hard one to fix when the only real conflict resolution that seems to exist is rolling some dice, but the neverending push for "immersive" games that abandon emotion for trying to be as "realistic" as possible sure as hell doesn't help. What sucks out the fun of throwing a fireball faster then using that space to explain the exact dimensions of it and telling players to bring out a ruler?

I honestly don't blame anything on Gygax, he just published a game before other people did. His big win was in being first. That game, OD&D is neither good in its rules, writing, or presentation, but it gets a pass because it is first. Violence is the history of human kind, it is inherently dramatic because it is, by the traditional view of history, the reason for why things change. Escapism takes violence and removes its impact, making it all sound and fury signifying nothing. But gently caress, escapism is fun and we all need it sometimes, I just want to see some non violent escapism gamed in a fun way. Where is His Girl Friday the rpg, or The West Wing?

remusclaw fucked around with this message at 22:10 on Jul 31, 2015

# ? Jul 31, 2015 22:05

mycot: Oct 23, 2014; "It's okay. There are other Terminators! Just give us this one!"; Hell Gem

ProfessorCirno posted:

The idea that ALL MEDIA FOREVER involves a lot of violence because of crazy ol' Gygax and his wargames is pretty silly at best. Violence in a fictional setting can be and is pretty exciting - as the entire history of human beings telling stories goes. Before video games there were TV shows which were fine with using violence or the threat thereof to raise the stakes. Before that there were movies - hell, in 1903 The Great Train Robbery, grainy black and white with no sound, had an evil outlaw draw his gun up to shoot the audience. Are we going to claim books never had violence? That war has never been glorified in stories? How many mythological characters don't kill a dude? How many stories of heroism don't involve violence?

If nothing else these violent board games are probably a nicer alternative to public hangings and gladiator matches.

# ? Jul 31, 2015 22:16

Guilty Spork: Feb 26, 2011; Thunder rolled. It rolled a six.

dwarf74 posted:

Wasn't sure if this belonged in Chat or Grogstxt.

https://medium.com/kickstarter/total-party-kill-3898fb82b5fb

quote:

�But if the game�s not hard, it�s not fun, and the rewards are cheapened.�

Nah, games don't have to be "hard" to be fun, least of all games that can tell a good story.

# ? Jul 31, 2015 22:17

Plutonis: Mar 25, 2011