Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Locked thread
Evil Mastermind
Apr 28, 2008

If you don't like 13th Age, you are my enemy. Please update your shipping charts accordingly.

Countblanc posted:

The palicos are basically the best thing to ever happen to gaming.
Also this.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Harrow
Jun 30, 2012

FactsAreUseless posted:

Well, the Essentials issue was introducing stripped-down classes that didn't work with existing ones. The 13th Age fighter is a lot like the Essentials fighter.

My only real issues with 13th Age are the few stripped-down classes, it's true. Fighter, Paladin, and Ranger are all perfectly effective, but they're really boring in the process. Paladin at least works great as a multiclass with the 13 True Ways Commander class (which is what one of my players is doing). Also, damage numbers kind of spiral out of control. I think Heinsoo and Tweet kind of got caught up in "big numbers are fun!" and just ran with it.

I like most everything else about it, though. The engagement rules for combat are a nice, easy way to handle opportunity attacks and "tanking" mechanics.

01011001
Dec 26, 2012

Harrow posted:

My only real issues with 13th Age are the few stripped-down classes, it's true. Fighter, Paladin, and Ranger are all perfectly effective, but they're really boring in the process. Paladin at least works great as a multiclass with the 13 True Ways Commander class (which is what one of my players is doing). Also, damage numbers kind of spiral out of control. I think Heinsoo and Tweet kind of got caught up in "big numbers are fun!" and just ran with it.

I like most everything else about it, though. The engagement rules for combat are a nice, easy way to handle opportunity attacks and "tanking" mechanics.

The fighter is fine, but realistically it should be the lower end of complexity instead of the middle ground.

Shoombo
Jan 1, 2013
Yeah, I've always wondered why people seem to hate the Fighter so much. It's an interesting take on a simple class, that still has something to do, and can do something different every single turn, if they're lucky. The Fighter could be better, but I like flexible attacks as a mechanic, and I've had fun playing the Fighter, a lot more than I have had with the Ranger, which is actually a class that is way too simple.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Loki_XLII posted:

Yeah, I've always wondered why people seem to hate the Fighter so much. It's an interesting take on a simple class, that still has something to do, and can do something different every single turn, if they're lucky. The Fighter could be better, but I like flexible attacks as a mechanic, and I've had fun playing the Fighter, a lot more than I have had with the Ranger, which is actually a class that is way too simple.

I think the biggest thing they could do with is more special attacks that activate on odds and more that overlap. It should be 'what are my options and how do I react' instead of 'do I get to do a thing at all', but it's a decent concept and the player of mine who plays them legit loves the Fighter.

Lightning Lord
Feb 21, 2013

$200 a day, plus expenses

I mostly think the Druid is too unfocused and wants to be every version of that concept.

Harrow
Jun 30, 2012

Night10194 posted:

I think the biggest thing they could do with is more special attacks that activate on odds and more that overlap. It should be 'what are my options and how do I react' instead of 'do I get to do a thing at all', but it's a decent concept and the player of mine who plays them legit loves the Fighter.

This is pretty much my problem with it. The Bard, the other official class that relies on flexible melee attacks, has a lot of options that aren't those. The Fighter, meanwhile, is mostly built around them, and the balance of it swings towards "hope your roll lets you do something useful." I think I just don't love the idea of flexible melee attacks to begin with, so building an entire class out of them, especially one that could be as tactical as the Fighter, means I'm probably not going to like that class.

Lightning Lord posted:

I mostly think the Druid is too unfocused and wants to be every version of that concept.

Yeah, the Druid is kind of messed up. I've heard that if you give the Druid four talents instead of three, it helps a lot, but even then, you should still really choose between "caster" or "warrior" Druid, which kind of defeats the purpose of having such a modular class to begin with.

Ferrinus
Jun 19, 2003

i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world
The 13th Age fighter is unbelievably bad. It's amazing how lovely the effects of its powers actually are given that it can't even decide when to use them.

01011001
Dec 26, 2012

Loki_XLII posted:

Yeah, I've always wondered why people seem to hate the Fighter so much. It's an interesting take on a simple class, that still has something to do, and can do something different every single turn, if they're lucky. The Fighter could be better, but I like flexible attacks as a mechanic, and I've had fun playing the Fighter, a lot more than I have had with the Ranger, which is actually a class that is way too simple.

It's got many class features, especially early on, that are traps, are really only useful for one kind of fighter, or work really counterintuitively. It works if you know your options but once you've drilled down that subset, there are significant build diversity issues, far more so than any other class.

SunAndSpring
Dec 4, 2013
The new options Fighters get in the Glorantha expansion seem really nice, at least, and easy enough to adapt to normal 13th Age.

Helical Nightmares
Apr 30, 2009
Huh. Escalation and Icons are interesting design choices to try to improve D&D.

Thanks very much for the write up gents.

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

HELL SERPENT
Lipstick Apathy

Helical Nightmares posted:

For 13th Age, what is the escalation dice and what are icons?

Beyond what's already been said about what the Escalation Die does, the intent behind it is

1. It speeds up combat - baseline to-hit chance is about 60%, so a +6 from the Escalation Die is going to make you hit 90-95% of the time, removing that phase of combat where people keep whiffing, especially when they're whiffing long after the outcome of the combat is already decided.
2. It discourages the 'alpha strike' - that is, unleashing your most powerful attacks in the first few rounds. The idea is that players are going to wait until the Escalation Die has a higher bonus (or until they really need to use their big moves) before unleashing their big moves, so that they're more guaranteed that those attacks will hit

It's also worth noting that the Escalation Die is supposed to either not increment or even decrement if the players do not engage in combat, so you can't just "turtle up" or pass on turns and wait for the bonus to go up before you start attacking. If violence isn't being dealt, the Die stays put.

01011001
Dec 26, 2012

In practice, though, most fights end on turn 2-3 so most of that doesn't much matter. Good concept, execution is a bit off.

Kai Tave
Jul 2, 2012
Fallen Rib

01011001 posted:

In practice, though, most fights end on turn 2-3 so most of that doesn't much matter. Good concept, execution is a bit off.

This could be 13th Age's tagline really. I agree that the Escalation Die is a good idea in theory, but in practice my experience with D&D-style fights is that they're either over in a couple-few rounds or if they go on any longer then people quickly start going "yeah okay, this is dragging on," so adding something to fights that unlocks cool stuff but only after you've passed the threshold between "this is fun" and "c'mon just loving die already, Jesus" doesn't quite work. I'm not sure what you'd need to do to make it work better though.

Plutonis
Mar 25, 2011

Davin Valkri posted:

Some of us don't have that option, you realize.

I'm your friend and I'll play the game you want with you.

Harrow
Jun 30, 2012

01011001 posted:

In practice, though, most fights end on turn 2-3 so most of that doesn't much matter. Good concept, execution is a bit off.

I'm having about the same experience, actually. I still like a lot about 13th Age, and I like the idea behind the escalation die, but it isn't helping as much as I'd like. Either the fight is over by turn 3, or everyone's rolling so lovely that they manage to miss even with the escalation die on 5 and it's very disheartening. In the same session, I had an easy encounter with some stupid ghouls take 7 turns (and drat near an hour of real time), while the climactic fight that was tuned to be way harder was basically over by turn 3. That's an extreme circumstance, obviously. But it did highlight how the escalation die is only a minor aid and not quite as revolutionary as it seems on the surface.

Elector_Nerdlingen
Sep 27, 2004



Kai Tave posted:

This could be 13th Age's tagline really. I agree that the Escalation Die is a good idea in theory, but in practice my experience with D&D-style fights is that they're either over in a couple-few rounds or if they go on any longer then people quickly start going "yeah okay, this is dragging on," so adding something to fights that unlocks cool stuff but only after you've passed the threshold between "this is fun" and "c'mon just loving die already, Jesus" doesn't quite work. I'm not sure what you'd need to do to make it work better though.

I still haven't managed to actually play 13th Age (much to my regret), but this is really interesting because from reading the book it sounds like the escalation die will do that really well.

Is it just a case of the numbers not actually making fights end in the sweet spot between short/unsatisfying and long/boring. Could it be as simple as adjusting the bonus you get from the die? Does the die need to be integral to more stuff you can do?

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

AlphaDog posted:

I still haven't managed to actually play 13th Age (much to my regret), but this is really interesting because from reading the book it sounds like the escalation die will do that really well.

Is it just a case of the numbers not actually making fights end in the sweet spot between short/unsatisfying and long/boring. Could it be as simple as adjusting the bonus you get from the die? Does the die need to be integral to more stuff you can do?

It's more that striking home a couple times will usually kill an enemy and getting off a Daily or Encounter power if you have one will almost certainly do it.

Kai Tave
Jul 2, 2012
Fallen Rib

AlphaDog posted:

I still haven't managed to actually play 13th Age (much to my regret), but this is really interesting because from reading the book it sounds like the escalation die will do that really well.

Is it just a case of the numbers not actually making fights end in the sweet spot between short/unsatisfying and long/boring. Could it be as simple as adjusting the bonus you get from the die? Does the die need to be integral to more stuff you can do?

My experience playing with the Escalation Die both in 13th Age and repurposed into 4E is that the +to hit bonus the ED gives doesn't make a ton of difference and is also kind of fiddly, and gating certain abilities/special bonuses behind the ED being at a certain threshold is more frustrating than "woah awesome" because it's like if you have an ability that doesn't get expended if you use it when the ED is at X or higher and then the fight ends (either completely or "all over but the mopping up") at round X-1 and you were hanging onto that ability thinking "oh man this is gonna be so cool" then you wind up feeling like you wasted an opportunity.

From a strict numbers perspective I'd say that the ED isn't tremendously likely to bring fights to a close in the "sweet spot" any more than any other low to middling set of bonuses would...+1 to +3 to hit is nice and all but a d20 based resolution system still has a tendency to be swingy even with an extra 5-15% chance to-hit going on, and if you start getting past that point then you've already sort of passed the sweet spot for a lot of folks anyway. I think the Escalation Die is a noble idea that sounds neat in concept but in practice just sort of adds an extra layer of fiddly cruft to things.

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

HELL SERPENT
Lipstick Apathy
It's just another of those D&D sacred cows to have combat based around hitting or not hitting, rather than always hitting, but hitting for lots or hitting for less*

* and/or that the ability to avoid getting hit should be in the realm of the players, and even that it should be a controlled ability that you can tap into when it's tactically important for you to not get hit

Ratpick
Oct 9, 2012

And no one ate dinner that night.
As far as D&D-likes go, 13th Age is among my favorites. That's not to say it's perfect, but it gets enough right to appeal to me.

To me, the biggest downside to the game is the lack of parity as far as truly mythic abilities at higher levels across the classes goes. At epic tier the Bard will be performing awesome solos that are so rad that all the Icons just come around for a huge party, the Cleric is resurrecting people, and the Wizard and Sorcerer are raining down arcane hellfire on their enemies. The fighty classes don't have any such abilities written into them unless you take very specific talents, and the Fighter lacks any talents and powers that give them abilities of mythic proportion. The Ranger and Rogue have two of my favorite talents in the game and the epic level feats of those talents open them up to really amazing abilities with a lot of narrative power (I'm talking of course of Tracker and Thievery), and the Barbarian gets to summon a ghostly warband of their ancestors which is kind of cool I guess but sadly limited to being a combat ability. The Paladin can sort of get abilities of mythic proportions, but even then it requires taking talents that just let them steal spells from the Cleric, which is kind of sad. The Fighter gets none of that.

And yeah, the Fighter is okay, but their main thing being purely reliant on randomness is kind of lovely.

Another thing that sort of gets to me about the game is that it presents itself as D&D with innovative indie design but doesn't exactly go very far with the really innovative bits. It still uses ability scores (although to the authors' credit, they featured Death to Ability Scores on their blog in a feature that is supposed to present house rules for 13th Age, something which I can't imagine Paizo or Wizards doing), Icon relationships are an interesting idea but would warrant a bit more fleshing out, and I love how some abilities in the game blur the line between combat and noncombat applications (including Cantrip Mastery and Ritual Casting, the idea of being able to cast cantrip and ritual versions of all my Wizard's spells is so cool).

Having said that, yeah, I still enjoy the game. I just wish I had time to play it some time.

FactsAreUseless
Feb 16, 2011

Please do not insult my good friend, the Fighter.

Plutonis
Mar 25, 2011

FactsAreUseless posted:

Please do not insult my good friend, the Fighter.

Thank you FAU. Do you like Swords as well?

FactsAreUseless
Feb 16, 2011

Yes, I like many S words:

Sandwich
Slytherin
Sock
Syncopation
Snake
Stamps
Syllable
Simple
Salad
Steering

Plutonis
Mar 25, 2011

You could have made this a Celebrity Jeopardy joke and yet. And yet.

FactsAreUseless
Feb 16, 2011

You know what would be a better class than the Fighter? The Frighteners from the movie The Frighteners.

FactsAreUseless
Feb 16, 2011

TheLovablePlutonis posted:

You could have made this a Celebrity Jeopardy joke and yet. And yet.
It was. It was a reverse of the classic Sean Connery s-words/swords mix-up.

Plutonis
Mar 25, 2011

FactsAreUseless posted:

It was. It was a reverse of the classic Sean Connery s-words/swords mix-up.

I know, I just said it because you could have added a "shuck it up trebek" for more laughs.

FactsAreUseless
Feb 16, 2011

TheLovablePlutonis posted:

I know, I just said it because you could have added a "shuck it up trebek" for more laughs.
I don't really do impressions.

Plutonis
Mar 25, 2011

FactsAreUseless posted:

I don't really do impressions.

Your posting isn't impressive either!

Inexplicable Humblebrag
Sep 20, 2003

are all the monthly TG chat threads like this

FactsAreUseless
Feb 16, 2011

DOWN JACKET FETISH posted:

are all the monthly TG chat threads like this
Please do not insult my friends.

Evil Mastermind
Apr 28, 2008

DOWN JACKET FETISH posted:

are all the monthly TG chat threads like this

Unfortunately.

FactsAreUseless
Feb 16, 2011

Evil Mastermind posted:

Unfortunately.
Watch out... this guy's the evil mastermind behind the whole thing!

FactsAreUseless
Feb 16, 2011

What's the most fun character everyone has played?

Plutonis
Mar 25, 2011

FactsAreUseless posted:

What's the most fun character everyone has played?

Three way split: Ultra self-centered, ambitious and haughty Abyssal Exalted, Demented Magical Girl on a Pokemon Tabletop Adventure game and stinky hobo Bone Gnawer on Werewolf the Apocalypse.

SunAndSpring
Dec 4, 2013
Man, I have no idea what setting I wanna run next time I GM a d20 game. Dark Sun is cool because I like deserts and survivalist stuff, Ravenloft is nice because it's got some decent spooky stuff, and Glorantha is great because it's super detailed and has so much variety.

FactsAreUseless
Feb 16, 2011

SunAndSpring posted:

Man, I have no idea what setting I wanna run next time I GM a d20 game. Dark Sun is cool because I like deserts and survivalist stuff, Ravenloft is nice because it's got some decent spooky stuff, and Glorantha is great because it's super detailed and has so much variety.
Urban Eberron campaign that takes place entirely in Sharn.

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

HELL SERPENT
Lipstick Apathy

SunAndSpring posted:

Man, I have no idea what setting I wanna run next time I GM a d20 game. Dark Sun is cool because I like deserts and survivalist stuff, Ravenloft is nice because it's got some decent spooky stuff, and Glorantha is great because it's super detailed and has so much variety.

Nentir Vale

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Elfface
Nov 14, 2010

Da-na-na-na-na-na-na
IRON JONAH
I quite liked the antipaladin who thought she was a regular paladin and that she had 'detect evil' and 'smite evil' etc. etc. as a character I played.


It's that or a Scion from Scion with the ability to eat anything and reshape earth and metals as though they were wet clay who would just chomp on a brick when she was peckish.

Ended up as a goddess of recycling when she just ate all the plastics that wouldn't bio-degrade.



So, what are good Transhumanist games? Eclipse Phase is nice, but might be the most complicated non-parody rules system ever created. Plus you spend a whole bunch of stuff on gear and then find out you're being sent as an ego across the galaxy on a mission, so you need to go shopping again with a different budget.

  • Locked thread