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Doccers posted:It was more politicians realized that Handguns were too common to get the votes for a nation-wide ban, so they decided to start with rarer, scarier-looking guns, to try and ease people into the idea of bans. e: Well, except for the "ease them in" part. Maybe I'm just cynical, but given how little the AWB had to do with seriously addressing even the problem that it purported to, I doubt that the politicians that passed it were ever honestly interested in addressing any real issue. The Oldest Man posted:It helps that spree killers loving love military-style rifles and get the most national attention even if their comparative body count is a tiny fraction of what handguns account for. OneEightHundred fucked around with this message at 08:43 on Jul 7, 2015 |
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Jul 7, 2015 08:31
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Nessus posted:So it sounds like the best thing the hypothetical gun control folks could do is get scary black people (political sorts, rappers) to open carry then. Of course that's probably asking to get shot. That and get some people to go on strike while open carrying. THat will start the gun control laws rolling, its also why I am not fond of such laws, they tend to exist for the people at the top.
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Jul 7, 2015 08:53
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OneEightHundred posted:Spree shootings are so atypical that there's really no point in legislating over them ever, but even if you wanted to, I'm pretty sure that most spree shooters used pistols and shotguns. Most of the ones that I can remember just used whatever they could acquire easily, but the ones that actually selected weapons tended to prefer compactness more than anything. It's sort of like the crime rate. Reporting and presentation conceals a drastic decline.
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Jul 7, 2015 16:52
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any proper leftist opposes gun control, because statistically people who own guns are far more likely to harm themselves or their family members (especially children) than anyone else. i don't think we want to lessen suicide rates among gun owners and veterans in this country, the cost savings are enormous
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Jul 7, 2015 17:48
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Nessus posted:Yeah, I think one other contributing factor is that modern media annihilates the sheer space between different regions. These cases are usually separated by thousands of miles and months - if they were happening in Europe they'd usually be in different countries and would likely only be brief, if nasty, news. There's also the fact that sometimes mass killings using things other than guns don't get as much attention. How many people here have heard of the Happy Land fire? In 1990, a guy killed 87 people using a jug of gasoline and some matches by setting fire to the club where his ex-girlfriend worked. That's more than 2.5 times as many as the Virginia tech shooting, and 10 more people than Brevik killed. By any objective measure it's one of the worst civilian mass killings in US History, but how often does it get brought up nowadays? A further irony is that the perpetrator resorted to arson because he wasn't able to acquire a gun. If he had been able to get his hands on a gun, he very likely wouldn't have killed as many people.
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Jul 7, 2015 18:19
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INH5 posted:There's also the fact that sometimes mass killings using things other than guns don't get as much attention. How many people here have heard of the Happy Land fire? In 1990, a guy killed 87 people using a jug of gasoline and some matches by setting fire to the club where his ex-girlfriend worked. That's more than 2.5 times as many as the Virginia tech shooting, and 10 more people than Brevik killed. By any objective measure it's one of the worst civilian mass killings in US History, but how often does it get brought up nowadays? The Columbine kids hosed up their propane bombs, which was plan #1. Sometimes the best protection we have as a society is the incompetence of those who wish to do us harm.
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Jul 7, 2015 18:51
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INH5 posted:There's also the fact that sometimes mass killings using things other than guns don't get as much attention. How many people here have heard of the Happy Land fire? In 1990, a guy killed 87 people using a jug of gasoline and some matches by setting fire to the club where his ex-girlfriend worked. That's more than 2.5 times as many as the Virginia tech shooting, and 10 more people than Brevik killed. By any objective measure it's one of the worst civilian mass killings in US History, but how often does it get brought up nowadays? quote:While they were found not responsible criminally, the city filed misdemeanor charges during February 1991 against DiLorenzo, the building owner, and Weiss, the landlord. These charges claimed that the owner and landlord were responsible for the building code violations caused by their tenant.[9] They both pleaded guilty during May 1992, agreeing to perform community service and paying $150,000 towards a community center for Hondurans in the Bronx.[10] I agree with you that Bushmaster should have been found negligent in court for violations related to the misuse of their product.
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Jul 7, 2015 18:52
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INH5 posted:A further irony is that the perpetrator resorted to arson because he wasn't able to acquire a gun. If he had been able to get his hands on a gun, he very likely wouldn't have killed as many people.
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Jul 7, 2015 18:58
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Nessus posted:So you're saying this fire wouldn't have happened... if he'd had a gun? No, everyone should carry a book of matches so they can light counterfires around the arsonist, and prevent Harm. It's the only way to be safe. A polite society is an inflammable society.
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Jul 7, 2015 18:59
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Nessus posted:So you're saying this fire wouldn't have happened... if he'd had a gun? From the Wikipedia article: quote:The evening of the fire, González had argued with his former girlfriend, Lydia Feliciano, a coat check girl at the club, urging her to quit. She claimed that she had had enough of him and did not want anything to do with him anymore. González tried to fight his way back into the club but was ejected by the bouncer. He was heard to scream drunken threats in the process. González had recently lost his job at a lamp factory, was impoverished, and had virtually no companions. Unable to acquire a gun, González returned to the establishment with a plastic container of gasoline. He spread the fuel on a staircase, the only access into the club, and then ignited the gasoline. Though that part has a bunch of "Citation Needed" labels, so who knows.
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Jul 7, 2015 19:02
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Yeah I'm more pointing out that your argument is "this guy would have killed fewer people, had he been able to access a firearm and use that to kill people instead." This may be literally true but this doesn't seem like the best rhetorical tack. Popular Thug Drink posted:No, everyone should carry a book of matches so they can light counterfires around the arsonist, and prevent Harm. It's the only way to be safe. A polite society is an inflammable society.
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Jul 7, 2015 19:04
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It's not so much the fire that kills people, but overcrowded and unsuitable uses with lack of safety features such as wide and easily reached egress points with fire doors and suppressant systems. If only Big Construction didn't constantly block attempts to institute building regulations and fire codes, this wouldn't be a weekly occurrence. Oh well, what can you do. The only thing that can stop a criminal with a lighter is a good guy with a lighter.
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Jul 7, 2015 19:14
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INH5 posted:First off, comparing "gun crime" tells us nothing. Of course gun crime goes down if it's harder to get guns, but if the decrease in gun crime is completely offset by a simultaneous increase in knife crime, then you aren't really any better off, are you? Jesus Christ... When you miss with a knife, it doesn't punch through a wall or sail down the block and kill someone else. Ya know, the way bullets tend to.
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Jul 7, 2015 20:18
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I'll never give up my guns as long as capitalism exists.
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Jul 7, 2015 20:33
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Panzeh posted:I'll never give up my guns as long as capitalism exists. Thank you comrade for making society worse and funneling at least thousands of dollars into weapons manufacturers and republican lobbyists in an attempt to make your half-baked revolution fantasies insignificantly more plausible.
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Jul 7, 2015 20:48
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Jul 7, 2015 20:52
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Tezzor posted:Thank you comrade for making society worse and funneling at least thousands of dollars into weapons manufacturers and republican lobbyists in an attempt to make your half-baked revolution fantasies insignificantly more plausible. Truly world peace will be achieved when Bushmaster can no longer make cheap semi knockoffs of M4s.
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Jul 7, 2015 20:53
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Jul 7, 2015 20:55
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Rent-A-Cop posted:As if private small arms manufacturers make any difference to anything at all. They actually do, as they invest their capital partially into attempts to sell more guns. Maybe not to war-torn nations, but in America and indirectly to all the countries American firearms are shipped to.
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Jul 7, 2015 21:00
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Tezzor posted:They actually do, as they invest their capital partially into attempts to sell more guns. Maybe not to war-torn nations, but in America and indirectly to all the countries American firearms are shipped to.
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Jul 7, 2015 21:07
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In countries other than the USA, knifre crime makes up a bigger proportion of violent crimes, so we can't tell that widely available guns increase crime rather than change it's method. Additionally, there is more violent crime in the USA than other developed countries, so there must be other reasons than guns. Therefore, if we all had guns there would be less crime. e.g. crime in the UK would fall if handguns were legalised again.
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Jul 7, 2015 21:10
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Rent-A-Cop posted:I'd love to see any data you have on a statistically significant amount of crime caused by legal foreign sales of domestically produced arms by private manufacturers. Because I can't imagine there's a ton of a market for AR clones overseas when the US government gives away surplus arms by the literal shipload to pretty much anyone who asks nicely. http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/world/article24746863.html An average of 253,000 weapons purchased in the United States head south of the border each year, according to the study by four scholars at the University of San Diego’s Trans-Border Institute and the Igarape Institute, a research center in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. Profit margins at many gun stores are razor thin, and thousands of U.S. gun vendors would go out of business without the illicit traffic to Mexico, said Topher McDougal, an economist educated at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology who’s one of the study’s authors.
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Jul 7, 2015 21:12
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Tezzor posted:Thank you comrade for making society worse and funneling at least thousands of dollars into weapons manufacturers and republican lobbyists in an attempt to make your half-baked revolution fantasies insignificantly more plausible. I bet you don't even know how to make explosives.
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Jul 7, 2015 21:13
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Panzeh posted:I bet you don't even know how to make explosives. This is like the opposite of gaslighting.
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Jul 7, 2015 21:16
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Tezzor posted:This is like the opposite of gaslighting.
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Jul 7, 2015 21:17
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Tezzor posted:This is like the opposite of gaslighting. You're a terrible revolutionary, you probably couldn't even cap a single capitalist.
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Jul 7, 2015 21:17
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quote:The traffic is reflected in the disproportionately high number of federally licensed firearms dealers along the U.S. side of the border, said Robert Muggah, another of the four scholars. Of the 51,300 retail gun shops in the United States that hold federal licenses, some 6,700 of them are concentrated in the four U.S. states that border Mexico, Muggah said.
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Jul 7, 2015 21:21
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Yes, how odd that about 13% of gun shops are in states with about 20% of the US population. Surely this is proof of something nefarious. I don't think that there was any claim of anything "nefarious."
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Jul 7, 2015 21:30
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Tezzor posted:I don't think that there was any claim of anything "nefarious."
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Jul 7, 2015 21:38
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Nope but A) Never going to happen and B) Never Ever going to happen.
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Jul 7, 2015 21:58
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Rent-A-Cop posted:The study suggests that having 13% of US FFLs in a region that is home to more than 20% of the US population is "disproportionately high" and reflects illegal cross-border arms traffic. The statement is ridiculous on its face. I'm happy that you've managed to find some irrelevant thing to whine about rather than addressing reality that 250,000 American firearms a year cross the border into Mexico. Dissonance is terrible Tezzor fucked around with this message at 22:05 on Jul 7, 2015 |
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Jul 7, 2015 22:00
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pointsofdata posted:In countries other than the USA, knifre crime makes up a bigger proportion of violent crimes, so we can't tell that widely available guns increase crime rather than change it's method. Is this a serious post?
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Jul 7, 2015 22:08
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Tezzor posted:I'm happy that you've managed to find some irrelevant thing to whine about rather than addressing reality that 250,000 American firearms a year cross the border into Mexico.
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Jul 7, 2015 22:09
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Rent-A-Cop posted:I don't think it's irrelevant. The authors of that study have taken bad data and used it to draw a farcical conclusion. That should lead any reasonable individual to question their other conclusions, especially when their conclusions are so different from DoJ/NIJ conclusions reached in the same time period. How many tens of thousands of firearms per year are smuggled into Mexico according to the DoJ, and what number is low enough to relieve gun owners for their culpability in buying useless weapons they don't need which not only props up the production of firearms but which also, primarily as a result of their paranoia and stupidity, are stolen and entered into criminal circulation by the hundreds of thousands annually? Tezzor fucked around with this message at 22:24 on Jul 7, 2015 |
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Jul 7, 2015 22:17
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Tezzor posted:How many tens of thousands of firearms per year are smuggled into Mexico according to the DoJ, and what number is low enough to relieve gun owners for their culpability in buying useless weapons they don't need which not only props up the production of firearms but which also, primarily as a result of their paranoia and stupidity, are stolen and entered into criminal circulation by the hundreds of thousands annually?
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Jul 7, 2015 22:22
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Tezzor posted:Thank you comrade for making society worse and funneling at least thousands of dollars into weapons manufacturers and republican lobbyists in an attempt to make your half-baked revolution fantasies insignificantly more plausible. You're welcome
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Jul 7, 2015 22:23
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Rent-A-Cop posted:If you move those goalposts any further you'll be smuggling them into Mexico. I'd really like a source. I wasn't aware that the claim that "tens of thousands of American firearms are smuggled into Mexico" was really such a controversial proposition, and the wikipedia article has the typical stink of gun fanboy on it. According to official sources, 48-87% of firearms found in Mexico are traced back to the US, but according to some broken links and a right-wing website that doesn't understand statistical sampling,
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Jul 7, 2015 22:25
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Tezzor posted:I wasn't aware that the claim that "tens of thousands of American firearms are smuggled into Mexico" was really such a controversial proposition Tezzor posted:According to official sources, 48-87% of firearms found in Mexico are traced back to the US Edit: The GAO report that is the source of the above 87% figure. [PDF]. In this report the GAO makes several recommendations on how to more effectively combat arms trafficking to DTO's across the US-Mexico border. To that list I would personally add opening the NICS to private transfers and providing federal funding along with penalties for state's non-compliance with the NICS. Rent-A-Cop fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Jul 7, 2015 |
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Jul 7, 2015 22:37
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i don't want to hear anything about this till I can legally mount a heavy machine gun to the roof of my truck.
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Jul 8, 2015 00:15
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Why yes, well off American gun owner, you too can feel as if you are in a now war torn country historically swept with sectarian, ethnic, civil and now large terrorist organization troubles. Debate guns forever, go ahead. But dont compare yourself to ethnic minority forces fighting tooth and nail for their survival. It's pathetic, disengenous and absolutely disgusting.
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Jul 8, 2015 01:52
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