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Space Bat
Apr 17, 2009

hold it now hold it now hold it right there
you wouldn't drop, couldn't drop diddy, you wouldn't dare

dasmause posted:

They're not inherently hostile
Also hell doesn't exist, only Expanse which is just a parallel world where demons dwell
And existance of demon summoning program proves that co-existance is possible with time
Bigotry doesn't justify genocide


Oh please. The only reason you like Law is because you want to be eternally happy with no effort on your part

You can't negotiate with dark or light demons though, who are always inherently hostile. What's with the racist angle? This is weird.

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McGwee
May 1, 2012

I say we screw them both and be the new leaders of Japan, what could possibly go wrong?

Tallgeese
May 11, 2008

MAKE LOVE, NOT WAR


dasmause posted:

Also hell doesn't exist, only Expanse which is just a parallel world where demons dwell
And existance of demon summoning program proves that co-existance is possible with time

Ah, so your idea of co-existence is only possible with the threat of subjugation within a magitech computer, along with stuffing them into tubes and combining them into forms you like if what they are now doesn't suit you.

I'm not sure I like what I'm hearing...

(Seriously though, this is a weird, weird angle you're taking. At least throw in a reference to something funny somewhere!)

As for the other thing, I'll spoil it, since we miraculously have someone who hasn't spoiled themselves.

Hell is a specific part of the Expanse.

It's semi-Buddhist in nature. You get out through reincarnation, but that's part of the punishment. If you've been sent there you'll probably go right back soon enough.

Tallgeese fucked around with this message at 20:31 on Aug 13, 2015

dasmause
Jul 20, 2015

Tallgeese posted:

Ah, so your idea of co-existence is only possible with the threat of subjugation within a magitech computer, along with stuffing them into tubes and combining them into forms you like if what they are now doesn't suit you.

And you say "we're" the prejudiced ones?

(Seriously though, this is a weird, weird angle you're taking.)

Also, Hell is a specific part of the Expanse.

It's semi-Buddhist in nature. You get out through reincarnation, but that's part of the punishment. If you've been sent there you'll probably go right back soon enough.

Good job putting words into my mouth, I guess
Also apparently you don't know what you're talking about, so I'll explain: to get demons to go into your computer, they have to agree to go there on their own accord. Only Raidou stuffs them by force, and he's using outdated technology
Demon Summoning Programm allows communication between humans and demons, so unprovoked agression wouldn't happen like it did when Steven first met a demon.

By hell I mean the specific plane dedicated to make sinners suffer, but so far the only place that fits the bill is God's domain. In Expanse/Makai/Abyss, peaceful existance is possible, as evident in SMTII


Space Bat posted:

You can't negotiate with dark or light demons though, who are always inherently hostile. What's with the racist angle? This is weird.

This thread is the first time I heard about inability to contact Light demons. Is it a bug maybe? I mean, Light demons are supposed to be good, while Dark - evil, so it's weird that you can't speak to them. Also a lot of guides only list Dark as unavailable for negotiations
Maybe it's a coincedence and OP is of incompatible alignment with Light demons that he tried to talk to

Pieuvre
Sep 19, 2010
Can we skip the usual SMT alignment circlejerk and make lovely fanart instead? Kazuya throwing a tea party with Pixie and Cu Sith, stuff like that?

Rockstar Massacre
Mar 2, 2009

i only have a crazy life
because i make risky decisions
from a position of
unreasonable self-confidence

Dragonatrix posted:

also try and keep alignment arguments to a minimum if you can okay thanks

Can we at least wait until later in the game?

Tallgeese
May 11, 2008

MAKE LOVE, NOT WAR


I would point out that alignment is barely being mentioned at all, so it's not actually alignment chat.

It actually started coming up in the votes out of nowhere, unbidden. By my count each person who has mentioned it has done so exactly once; in my case it was even a blatant political joke I just couldn't resist burying my face in, not unlike a delicious ICE CWEAM BAH.

I think you're knee-jerking a bit and need to relax!

I swear, kids these days have no appreciation for classic cartoons.

I bet it's all the anime. That's the real reason Thorman needs to fire the missiles.

Tallgeese fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Aug 13, 2015

Junpei Hyde
Mar 15, 2013




Why would you even have a heated argument about a video game alignment system in the first place?

Tallgeese
May 11, 2008

MAKE LOVE, NOT WAR


Do you actually want an answer to that question?

Leave
Feb 7, 2012

Taking the term "Koopaling" to a whole new level since 2016.

Tallgeese posted:

Do you actually want an answer to that question?

No, because it involves you posting more.

On another point, Steven invented the Demon Summoning Program, right? And he has all of these upgrades to it and what-not; do we ever find out what sort of demons he has rocking around in his computer? Or if he's ever captured one?

Junpei Hyde
Mar 15, 2013




Tallgeese posted:

Do you actually want an answer to that question?

Yes.

Tallgeese
May 11, 2008

MAKE LOVE, NOT WAR



See the post above yours. People take these games and posting about them far too seriously for their own good.

I'm just here for the winged metal husbandos.

To answer the other question, Steven never actually summons a demon at any point to the best of my memory.

dasmause
Jul 20, 2015

Leavemywife posted:

No, because it involves you posting more.

On another point, Steven invented the Demon Summoning Program, right? And he has all of these upgrades to it and what-not; do we ever find out what sort of demons he has rocking around in his computer? Or if he's ever captured one?

Nah, but he's a wheelchair-bound guy who manages to get around pretty well, so I imagine he has some demons as body-guards

Either that, or his teleportation tech is insane

Tallgeese
May 11, 2008

MAKE LOVE, NOT WAR


There's actually a simple explanation for how he manages to stay alive, but it's spoilers.

Section Z
Oct 1, 2008

Wait, this is the Moon.
How did I even get here?

Pillbug

Tallgeese posted:

I swear, kids these days have no appreciation for classic cartoons.

I bet it's all the anime. That's the real reason Thorman needs to fire the missiles.
Tallgeese how are the huge, pectoral muscles implants working out for you?

Tallgeese
May 11, 2008

MAKE LOVE, NOT WAR


Section Z posted:

Tallgeese how are the huge, pectoral muscles implants working out for you?

Totally worth it; I even had butt mass to spare!

Anything to be more like my idol Metatron, really.

I suddenly want to take up knitting, though.

Tallgeese fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Aug 13, 2015

Victis
Mar 26, 2008


Haha jesus christ this dork.

Demons are distilled objectivism, unless you're the most special snowflake in fantasy world (you're not), they're just going to kill you or enslave you. That's the whole point of demons/Chaos path.

Sounds like a cool deal, should probably not nuke them.

Seyser Koze
Dec 15, 2013

Mucho Mucho
Nap Ghost
Neutral for maximum boss killing.

Also because if tons of people are going to die either way I'm going to make sure I'm the one ruling over the ashes.

Also also because Yukio Mishima's death was one of the most embarrassing things in the history of Japan and we're not associating with him.

dasmause
Jul 20, 2015

Victis posted:

Haha jesus christ this dork.

Demons are distilled objectivism, unless you're the most special snowflake in fantasy world (you're not), they're just going to kill you or enslave you. That's the whole point of demons/Chaos path.

Sounds like a cool deal, should probably not nuke them.

Oh wow, this is your first exposure to SMT isn't it?
If you like JRPGs you should play some games from the franchise, they're pretty good

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Seyser Koze posted:

Neutral for maximum boss killing.

Also because if tons of people are going to die either way I'm going to make sure I'm the one ruling over the ashes.

Also also because Yukio Mishima's death was one of the most embarrassing things in the history of Japan and we're not associating with him.

Ah, right, that guy. I knew that Gotou and the imagery of the Suicide Squad reminded me of a specific nutjob from Japanese history.

Geizt
Dec 10, 2014



Can we please not turn this into a repeat of the Strange Journey thread, and just drop all the alignment discussion?

Lotus Aura
Aug 16, 2009

KNEEL BEFORE THE WICKED KING!

Geizt posted:

Can we please not turn this into a repeat of the Strange Journey thread

This is good; I agree with this to a point.

If you must argue over it, keep it sensible. There'll be plenty of time to keep discussing alignments in general after all. No need to repeat the same handful of arguments over and over again ad nauseum.

NewMars
Mar 10, 2013
I say we kill 'em all and then we kill god, that should sort them out!

Tallgeese
May 11, 2008

MAKE LOVE, NOT WAR


Dragonatrix posted:

This is good; I agree with this to a point.

If you must argue over it, keep it sensible. There'll be plenty of time to keep discussing alignments in general after all. No need to repeat the same handful of arguments over and over again ad nauseum.

I say the thread will be infinitely less memorable for it, because there will be less outdated references only a few people will get.

But hey, it's your thread!

Now just put on this helmet, because I have a very special song for you...

(Truth be told, since this thread is a repeat I was running out of new commentary. I do have one more thing though.)

Tallgeese fucked around with this message at 02:08 on Aug 14, 2015

Joe Chill
Mar 21, 2013

"What's this dance called?"

"'Radioactive Flesh.' It's the latest - and the last!"

dasmause posted:

This thread is the first time I heard about inability to contact Light demons. Is it a bug maybe? I mean, Light demons are supposed to be good, while Dark - evil, so it's weird that you can't speak to them. Also a lot of guides only list Dark as unavailable for negotiations
Maybe it's a coincedence and OP is of incompatible alignment with Light demons that he tried to talk to

It's not a bug, light demons are supposed to be elitist types. Light and dark does not necessary mean good or evil either.

Here are the definitions from the manual translation:

quote:

LIGHT:
Light demons are generally gods that are loved and worshipped by large numbers of
people. As such, they often fall into the general category of being "good," but
not always--many Light gods/demons routinely perform heinously cruel acts. Light
demons rarely ever show themselves on the human plane, and most must be
explicitly fused or summoned. Should you have a chance encounter a Light demon in
your travels, you will find them aloof and unwilling to lower themselves to
negotiation with a mere human.

DARK:
Dark demons are generally gods or that are hated and feared by large numbers of
people, and as such are often "evil," though not invariably--many Dark
gods/demons are kind and benevolent. (as one man's demon is another's god) Dark
demons are found much more frequently on the human plane than Light demons. While
they generally are perfectly willing to talk and negotiate with humans, they will
not willingly join or submit to them.

NEUTRAL:
Neutral demons are those that are neither widely worshipped nor vilified.
Generally Neutral demons are monsters or supernatural beings like elves, pixies,
or minor deities/demons. Creatures that are not supernatural at all (like humans)
fall into this category by default. As neutral demons are much closer to humans
than dark or light demons, they are the most open to conversation and negotiation
with them as well. Neutral demons are the only types of demons that will
willingly become the minions of budding demon summoners through negotiation.

GilliamYaeger
Jan 10, 2012

Call Gespenst!
Light demons are snooty upper class-types who are completely sure of their own righteousness.

Dark demons are brutish thugs at worst and The Godfather at best.

Both are generally prideful.

Everyone else is Neutral.

Its not so much a moral alignment as much as it is an attitude alignment.

Tallgeese
May 11, 2008

MAKE LOVE, NOT WAR


Honestly, the Light-Dark part of the axis can be safely ignored, because it shifts based on developer mood and/or gameplay concerns.

To give a slightly spoilery example for an alignment change for a race...

Divines in SMt1 are considered Light-Law, which makes sense from the manual description. Except they suddenly change to Neutral-Law later so that they can be negotiated with. Most people obviously have positive feelings about angels.

Green Intern
Dec 29, 2008

Loon, Crazy and Laughable

Junpei Hyde posted:

Why would you even have a heated argument about a video game alignment system in the first place?

Tallgeese has a history of doing this.

Junpei Hyde
Mar 15, 2013




Green Intern posted:

Tallgeese has a history of doing this.

Oh. Well am I dumb for having the argument of "pick neutral, both these guys look shady as hell"?

Tallgeese
May 11, 2008

MAKE LOVE, NOT WAR


Well, it makes you a conformist, which is irony of the highest order, but other than that no. It's what you're ostensibly supposed to pick.

Docahedron
May 11, 2008

Im a special snowflake

Green Intern posted:

Tallgeese has a history of doing this.

And everyone else in an SMT thread ever. He certainly isn't arguing with himself. Ironically he's singled out because he and a scant few side with Law, and we can never pick the Law ending because my parents made me go to church a few times sky wizard Patrick Stewart doesn't exist.

I'm sure we all play the games differently, but yeah the alignment arguments always come up, so...if you don't like 'em, don't encourage 'em.

Tallgeese posted:

Anything to be more like my idol Metatron, really.

gently caress, marry, kill? (I will add Uriel and Dominion into the mix)

Docahedron fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Aug 14, 2015

Roobanguy
May 31, 2011

neutral always involves the most killing, which i as a human am down with so murder everybody.

Tallgeese
May 11, 2008

MAKE LOVE, NOT WAR


Docahedron posted:

gently caress, marry, kill? (I will add Uriel and Dominion into the mix)

I'd have to go with Metatron, Uriel, Dominion.

Honestly the hardest part was the second one. Since Uriel is all about the fire, chances are he's an excellent cook.

...wonder how he'd look in a chef hat.

Lotus Aura
Aug 16, 2009

KNEEL BEFORE THE WICKED KING!
Chaos



Well, in a sense that's true. The poll results are VERY decisive...

No.
You dare to oppose me then? Well, my friends, I'm afraid you leave me no choice but to kill you.
Take care of them!

Battle



After the execution site, it makes sense that we'd start fighting multiple demons at once. Unfortunately, this is not a difficult pairing.



The only thing of some note is that the Nue can inflict Panic while simultaneously dealing very low single digit damage. How terrifying!



Of course there's a bit more to it than that. The Shade is easy and is potentially something we could run into in this place. So, uh, yeah no threat there. Baykok is identical to when Ozawa made us fight one. Would be even easier but Unicorn's silenced so I can't just Hama it.




If you want something done right, you have to do it yourself!

Boss: Human Gotou



So, uh, yeah it's obvious that this was going to happen. There is a reason we want to fight Gotou first, by the way.

Boss Battle



In terms of what he can do, Gotou is the first boss we've faced who's able to put up a proper fight. Doman came close but his offense was easily negated; Gotou just hits you hard.



...Very hard. Granted, Kaz's Vitality isn't great right now but he does have the best available armor.



And if that's not enough, he can just Bind you if he feels like it.



Of course, Yuka has good chances of going before him and has Mazio almost guaranteed so she can shut him down too.



Or if you have, say, a Rusalka or Dryad or something with the ability to cast Marin Karin (or do the right type of dance) Gotou can be charmed.



Considering his third skill is to heal himself for a decent chunk of his 440HP, this helps a lot too. But, y'know he DOES have some Magical resistance so we have to contend with that.

Magical is a weird separate element for some ailments which is not confusing at all.




End

Yeah, yeah, great, whatever. That's Gotou promptly dealt with, so let's head on back to the American Embassy and skip right to Thorman's room.

Law





Oh no, what a shocker. Thor Man was Thor all along. :geno:

You've done superbly. I am Thor, and on behalf of God himself, I thank you and praise your good deed.

Please do not try and wrap your head around why Thor would be a follower of what is blatantly meant to be the Judeo-Christian God. Just sigh, accept it and move on. Your lack of an aneurism will thank you for it.

Will you continue to fight in God's name?
No.
...Then you dare to defy my command!?
Very well then. In punishment, I, the great Thor, will take your lives!

Boss: Deity Thor



So, uh, Thor. If we fought him before Gotou, we would not get to fight Gotou. You'll see why.

Also this order is better because Thor is a colossal joke.


Boss Battle



Not just because he's easier to Charm (which he kinda is). Honestly, Charm is nuts good here. As soon as you have ANY source of Charm you've beaten the game, frankly. There's even a thing we can get later than lets us Charm more consistently and for less which makes us basically double win.



Unsurprisingly, being the god of Thunder and all Thor does have Mazio. Which he uses on himself because he's Charmed. And he takes damage from it, albeit a small amount because his Magic sucks and he merely resists it.

He also has a basic attack which he also directs at himself for more damage but that's all. Thor is boring, easy and stays charmed the whole fight forever.


End

Embassy



I have already brought my hammer down. Within moments, nuclear warhead-tipped I.C.B.Ms will strike Tokyo.
Tokyo and the demons will soon be no more...
Glory to God and to his Thousand Year Kingdom...!



So, uh, yeah because we decided to not side with him, Thor got a mite pissy and just launched his nuclear missiles at us.

We now have 31 seconds, including the time it takes to transition out of his office, to somehow get to safety.



The timer does not stop if you go into menus, change screens or anything. Fortunately, there are no random encounters at the moment.


Silence



Once the timer hits zero or we make it to the world map, whichever comes first (probably the timer hitting zero since its VERY tight), the nukes hit. You can guess how that ends.

Dream



At the very least, I should get you out of here so you don't have to!
There's no time! ...Farewell, Kazuya...













Thor's many important designs. From left to right: Original, Nocturne and Devil Summoner. Also can I just say that I hate the weird Devil Summoner backgrounds.

Siegkrow
Oct 11, 2013

Arguing about Lore for 5 years and counting



Well, uhhh....

Good thread everyone! that was a short game.

Choco1980
Feb 22, 2013

I fell in love with a Video Nasty
Apparently in the first Megami Tensei from what I've seen, Loki was in league with Lucifer, so Thor being with God checks out.

Rawkking
Sep 4, 2011
Gotou's flashing eyes in his combat sprite would probably make an entertaining avatar with the right quote.

Thor's got them too but they seem a bit less notable due to his size and the helmet he's wearing.

Section Z
Oct 1, 2008

Wait, this is the Moon.
How did I even get here?

Pillbug
OOPS! :downs:

Totally worth it. Thor would have launched the nukes anyway if we didn't fight him. Probably.

GimmickMan
Dec 27, 2011

Thor is a dick. His Nocturne design kicks rear end though.

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FredMSloniker
Jan 2, 2008

Why, yes, I do like Kirby games.

Section Z posted:

Totally worth it. Thor would have launched the nukes anyway if we didn't fight him. Probably.

Yeah, I don't know the exact quote, but it's something along the lines of 'glad to have you aboard, but we still need to purge Tokyo'.

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