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burritolingus posted:If you're heroically fighting on the side of slavery/genocide then you are a bad even if you don't much care for slavery/genocide or were just following orders or whatever excuse. Even if you are in fact an ignorant farmboy who has been led to believe you are simply under siege from Northern tyrants who simply want to pillage all you hold dear? Any number of almost necessarily ignorant farmboys at the time were being fed a tremendous amount of bullshit. The sort of people who actually owned all the slaves were, perhaps unsurprisingly, ethically bankrupt people who had few if any qualms about lying to useful idiots so they would fight their war under their command. Whip up the southern pride and you could have any reasonable person tarred and feathered by his closest friends for questioning the propaganda. This doesn't fit nicely with reductionist thought though, as it starts to sound like you shouldn't even hate the Confederate Soldiery. Which there is little point in doing even then, actually. If you must hate something, hate the evils that shaped them. Greed, racism, deception, ignorance- they paid the price for them in blood and were still, happily, defeated soundly. The Snark fucked around with this message at 09:17 on Jul 15, 2015 |
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Jul 15, 2015 09:10
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burritolingus posted:If you're heroically fighting on the side of slavery/genocide then you are a bad even if you don't much care for slavery/genocide or were just following orders or whatever excuse. Thats an undertandable line of thinking, I guess it's the fundamental disagreement that this all boils down to.
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Jul 15, 2015 09:11
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The Snark posted:Even if you are in fact an ignorant farmboy who has been led to believe you are simply under siege from Northern tyrants who simply want to pillage all you hold dear? Yes. Knowingly fighting to enslave others is certainly worse than unknowingly fighting to enslave others, but that doesn't mean unknowingly fighting to enslave others is good or isn't bad. It's still bad. I don't understand why people would celebrate something bad or think that something bad is somehow worthy of respect. It's like, if I hit someone with a car, whether I did it on purpose or did it by accident, I've still hit a person with my vehicle, and that's pretty bad. burritolingus fucked around with this message at 09:49 on Jul 15, 2015 |
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Jul 15, 2015 09:44
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It was a long time ago and none of you were there. Remember, history is written by the winners
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Jul 15, 2015 10:12
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burritolingus posted:Yes. Agreed. Still not saying it is something to celebrate, but remembering it is absolutely critical and fostering intolerance of reminders is pointless to outright counterproductive. Here's the thing, if you grew up in the South at that time, in those cultures- can you say for certain that you wouldn't have been in that army? Statistically speaking, any number of us in that situation would have wound up doing the bad things. It isn't useful to pretend we can't possibly have been as bad as they were if we were in their place and that is why it is questionable to hate them beyond reason. (Unless you were black of course, then you PROBABLY wouldn't have been in the army-but not certainly.) It's more practical to have reminders wandering about that make it clear we probably could be manipulated into being colossally wrong again if we are not collectively aware of the threat. Like for instance if we were driven to whitewash history in order to spite dead people from more ignorant era.
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Jul 15, 2015 10:25
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The Snark posted:Here's the thing, if you grew up in the South at that time, in those cultures- can you say for certain that you wouldn't have been in that army? I would probably be a bad person/do a bad thing such as fight for slaves for the Confederates if I were a white southerner raised in the South at that time. I don't understand the point you're trying to make here. "Would you be bad if you were raised to be bad?" Um yeah prolly. Ultimately, though, it'd still be me (except not really me, since I'd basically be a completely different person) choosing to do all those bad things, and I'd still be responsible for my actions. Important lesson, but why call them "heroic?" For defending slavery without knowing it? I don't quite get that either, sir. Never said we should forget the bad things that people did, just that we ought stop sugarcoating those bad things. Germans don't do that poo poo. burritolingus fucked around with this message at 11:57 on Jul 15, 2015 |
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Jul 15, 2015 11:47
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burritolingus posted:If you're heroically fighting on the side of slavery/genocide then you are a bad even if you don't much care for slavery/genocide or were just following orders or whatever excuse. i think you're vastly overestimating the autonomy/intelligence/options of a huge number of people. Often, in war, you're fighting for the person standing next to you, not for any ideal or general.
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Jul 15, 2015 12:02
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what's people's opinions on blackface?
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Jul 15, 2015 12:04
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is this racist? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K04rSfSAZR8
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Jul 15, 2015 12:04
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opus111 posted:i think you're vastly overestimating the autonomy/intelligence/options of a huge number of people. Often, in war, you're fighting for the person standing next to you, not for any ideal or general. No, when your "heroic deed" is ultimately in service to probably one of the worst causes imaginable, like the enslavement of an entire race of people or genocide, whether you're doing it for those reasons or not, it really underscores your "heroic deed" and makes you sort of not a hero 'cuz you're fighting on the side of the baddies regardless of your personal reasons to do so. If a soldier jumps on a grenade to save his buddies, he's a hero, but if it was a Nazi soldier saving a bunch of other Nazi soldiers, no, not so much really a hero then, even if he was "just following orders."
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Jul 15, 2015 12:05
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where did I say anything about heroic deeds.... I just find it very difficult to see a million men as plain evil and I can't find it in myself not to feel pity at the idea of some poor sap being torn apart by canon fire by his own countryman. Anyway, this happened today http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33533264 which is kinda relevant, and you did mention the Germans' treatment of their own history.
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Jul 15, 2015 12:09
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opus111 posted:where did I say anything about heroic deeds.... I just find it very difficult to see a million men as plain evil Where did I say a million men were plain evil? Also a 94 year old man who getting a 4 year sentence is pretty much getting a life sentence at that point. You expect Germany to de-age him and then give him 100 years or something? And they're not putting monuments up to honor him and calling him a hero by giving him 4 years for keeping books, now are they? burritolingus fucked around with this message at 12:16 on Jul 15, 2015 |
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Jul 15, 2015 12:10
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Humans who fly a flag are idiots. Hth
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Jul 15, 2015 13:17
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Ramsus posted:It was a long time ago and none of you were there. Remember, history is written by the winners When I win I'm writing you out of existence, you lame o.
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Jul 15, 2015 13:18
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burritolingus posted:Where did I say a million men were plain evil? I wasn't trying to prove anything with that, I just thought you'd find it interesting considering what you said earlier in the thread...
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Jul 15, 2015 13:20
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The south sought to keep 4 million people enslaved, the north sought to keep 13 states enslaved, let's not pretend anybody's blameless here
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Jul 15, 2015 13:26
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All flags are dumb, some are just dumber.
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Jul 15, 2015 13:46
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Frackie Robinson posted:The south sought to keep 4 million people enslaved, the north sought to keep 13 states enslaved, let's not pretend anybody's blameless here and 11 of those states were already filled with 4 million slaves so this manner of double enslavement was truly intolerable
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Jul 15, 2015 14:43
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Lol at the people ITT who were too poor to go to a decent school and never learned about the Milgram experiment.
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Jul 15, 2015 14:48
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They should dedicate a memorial to those brave Milgram guards who were just trying to keep the peace and fighting a losing fight they were the real heroes.
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Jul 15, 2015 14:58
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No matter how personally virtuous they were, the best thing (aside from switching sides) any Confederate or Nazi soldier could do was die.
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Jul 15, 2015 15:04
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The Snark posted:Even if you are in fact an ignorant farmboy who has been led to believe you are simply under siege from Northern tyrants who simply want to pillage all you hold dear? this was not the case at all. if you look at contemporary documents, confederate leaders were perfectly clear that their cause was the protection of the racist institution of slavery. don't forget that it was the confederacy that started the war, by laying siege to fort sumter. it takes a bit of doing to convince men to steal cannons from their country's army and then use them to murder its soldiers. a choice excerpt from the speech that directly precipitated this, given by the CSA's vice president: quote:Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth 'that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. the idea that confederate leaders had anything else in their mind is a fantasy. as for the rank-and-file soldiers, there was no particular reason that they had to fight for the confederacy. the confederacy, not being a real country, had no means of instituting or enforcing a draft. it was a popular insurrection that relied on large numbers of men willingly volunteering to fight for it. there was also a not-insignificant minority of loyal americans from southern states who either didn't believe in the confederacy's values, or didn't believe they were important enough to justify betraying their country.
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Jul 15, 2015 15:04
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I really loved the movie Gettysburg as a kid but it gets really embarrassing as an adult when I get to the scene where a Confederate soldier laments "why men can't let other men live the way they want to?" and the Union soldier tearfully shares his sentiments. No side in the war is wrong and everyone gets a medal for participating.BigBoss posted:Lol at the people ITT who were too poor to go to a decent school and never learned about the Milgram experiment.
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Jul 15, 2015 15:05
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BigBoss posted:Lol at the people ITT who were too poor to go to a decent school and never learned about the Milgram experiment. the only thing that experiment proves is that most people are shitbags.
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Jul 15, 2015 15:06
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tweekinator posted:No matter how personally virtuous they were, the best thing (aside from switching sides) any Confederate or Nazi soldier could do was die.
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Jul 15, 2015 15:06
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TacticalUrbanHomo posted:the only thing that experiment proves is that most people are shitbags. That experiment is also why Germany and Japan are decent, prosperous countries 70 years after being bombed to dust. Meanwhile it's taken the American South 150 years, and it still hasn't fully recovered.
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Jul 15, 2015 15:16
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BigBoss posted:That experiment is also why Germany and Japan are decent, prosperous countries 70 years after being bombed to dust. Meanwhile it's taken the American South 150 years, and it still hasn't fully recovered. You're right. We should bomb the southern u.s.
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Jul 15, 2015 15:42
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Frackie Robinson posted:The south sought to keep 4 million people enslaved, the north sought to keep 13 states enslaved, let's not pretend anybody's blameless here lol are you loving kidding me the South didn't give a poo poo about states rights when it wielded the Fugitive Slave act to gently caress over Northern states harboring escapees, and would have wielded Federal power even more brutally than the North did if it could have
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Jul 15, 2015 15:45
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BigBoss posted:That experiment is also why Germany and Japan are decent, prosperous countries 70 years after being bombed to dust. Meanwhile it's taken the American South 150 years, and it still hasn't fully recovered. lol if you think japan is a decent country that wouldn't have long since been back at raping their neighbours if america wasn't keeping it firmly under its thumb Zombie Boat posted:You're right. We should bomb the southern u.s. agree with this though, also execute japanese nationalists
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Jul 15, 2015 15:46
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burritolingus posted:I don't get it because you can just say the truth (that the Confederacy fought for slavery) and they're still bad guys. You don't need to resort to name-calling with "traitors" or "terrorists" (which you could also call the colonials who fought for America in the Revolutionary War). It's enough that they fought to enslave other human beings. The colonials who fought for America in the Revolutionary War weren't only traitors, they were also slave owners. Why does America still celebrate the 4th July?
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Jul 15, 2015 15:46
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the only reason states rights ever entered the narrative about the Civil War is your propagandist historians needed a fig leaf to cover for the actual reason for the war, keeping and expanding your slave empire
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Jul 15, 2015 15:47
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Benny Harvey posted:The colonials who fought for America in the Revolutionary War weren't only traitors, they were also slave owners. Why does America still celebrate the 4th July? because a lot of them weren't slave owners and foresaw that poo poo giving us trouble but felt that getting us independent of the limeys was the more pressing concern, and that slavery would get resolved eventually they were right, it's just unfortunate that hundreds of thousands of Americans had to die first
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Jul 15, 2015 15:49
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Benny Harvey posted:The colonials who fought for America in the Revolutionary War weren't only traitors, they were also slave owners. Why does America still celebrate the 4th July? because slavery was not the issue in the revolutionary war. if the american colonies had rebelled against the british specifically because they were afraid they'd have to give up slavery otherwise, then I would probably feel the same way about the founding fathers as I do, say, andrew jackson.
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Jul 15, 2015 15:52
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TacticalUrbanHomo posted:lol if you think japan is a decent country that wouldn't have long since been back at raping their neighbours if america wasn't keeping it firmly under its thumb yeah but then they wouldn't give us hilarious images like this 
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Jul 15, 2015 15:52
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Omi-Polari posted:it faded over time but the german-american thing used to be a bigger deal from the 1850s until World War I when it was suppressed. the remnants are in places like north dakota, texas hill country, a few other places but i'm not sure https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUSJA-vtg_s best civil war song
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Jul 15, 2015 15:53
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ANIME IS BLOOD posted:because a lot of them weren't slave owners and foresaw that poo poo giving us trouble but felt that getting us independent of the limeys was the more pressing concern, and that slavery would get resolved eventually fewer than 150,000 americans were killed in action during the civil war another 200,000 died of disease and stuff I guess, but a lot of those probably would have anyway
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Jul 15, 2015 15:54
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TacticalUrbanHomo posted:because slavery was not the issue in the revolutionary war. if the american colonies had rebelled against the british specifically because they were afraid they'd have to give up slavery otherwise, then I would probably feel the same way about the founding fathers as I do, say, andrew jackson. You are a loving idiot if you dislike Andrew Jackson. Read American Lion you philistine.
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Jul 15, 2015 16:01
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TacticalUrbanHomo posted:this was not the case at all. if you look at contemporary documents, confederate leaders were perfectly clear that their cause was the protection of the racist institution of slavery. The leaders didn't really bother to lie to each other, but I continue to doubt they were inclined to be completely honest with Johnny Confederate grunts. TacticalUrbanHomo posted:lol if you think japan is a decent country that wouldn't have long since been back at raping their neighbours if america wasn't keeping it firmly under its thumb I don't know, maybe some problems can't be solved with wholesale slaughter. I wonder, how do you feel about the Middle East? Glass it or no? ANIME IS BLOOD posted:the only reason states rights ever entered the narrative about the Civil War is your propagandist historians needed a fig leaf to cover for the actual reason for the war, keeping and expanding your slave empire Your propagandist historians, your slave empire. ANIME IS BLOOD, I hate to break it to you- but Frackie Robinson is also almost certainly not a Confederate Soldier. They almost certainly own no slaves, almost certainly don't advocate the return of slavery but quite possibly have fired a blank musket in a re-enactment battle. At worst, they are just rather deluded as to the nature of the civil war. One would be hard pressed to rationally argue that the Southern States were enslaved by the North, especially after all the absurd compromises they forced. Frackie, it was about slavery. Really, the big joke is that it was SO VERY about slavery they seceded just out of fear the abolition of slavery was on the horizon when, if they had refrained, there is no telling when it would have been put down. As far as I know it wasn't actually high on Lincoln's to-do list. In some ways they guaranteed the destruction of the vile practice as once war was declared, abolition wasn't just the morally and ethically right thing to do- it became the tactically right thing to do as well. Benny Harvey posted:The colonials who fought for America in the Revolutionary War weren't only traitors, they were also slave owners. Why does America still celebrate the 4th July? If we're going to cull Set Off Tiny Sparkly Explosives Day- I insist Columbus Day goes first. It's not even fun. The Snark fucked around with this message at 16:06 on Jul 15, 2015 |
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Jul 15, 2015 16:02
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Hey, my great great grandfather died in the civil war. He fell out of a guard tower 
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Jul 15, 2015 16:05
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Snatch Duster posted:You are a loving idiot if you dislike Andrew Jackson. Read American Lion you philistine. the worst thing about jackson's presidency was richard lawrence's weapon maintenance
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Jul 15, 2015 16:08
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