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Moridin920
Nov 15, 2007

by FactsAreUseless

Nuclearmonkee posted:

This is basically what happened in Greece except now the Germans and other Euro governments want their loan back. No one was or is willing to accept that the loans are bad and cannot be paid in full.

I lived in Germany for a while and those dudes are such sticklers about the tiniest little bit of rules or paperwork that they spawned world famous author Franz Kafka - famous for writing about nightmare bureaucracy.

They'll probably be cursing Greece and demanding their payment in full 200 years from now.

Deals with them are like deals with the devil. They don't give a poo poo about bad faith or exigent circumstances. You signed ze papers goddamnit.

Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Jul 16, 2015

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Nuclearmonkee
Jun 10, 2009


Moridin920 posted:

I lived in Germany for a while and those dudes are such sticklers about the tiniest little bit of rules or paperwork that they spawned world famous author Franz Kafka - famous for writing about nightmare bureaucracy.

They'll probably be cursing Greece and demanding their payment in full 200 years from now.

Deals with them are like deals with the devil. They don't give a poo poo about bad faith or exigent circumstances. You signed ze papers goddamnit.

It's great because after WW2 the Germans had a huge amount of their debt forgiven. Sovereign debt forgiveness has happened lots and lots of times throughout European history but it is apparently no longer allowed because ???

Shadow
Jun 25, 2002

Nuclearmonkee posted:

This is basically what happened in Greece except now the Germans and other Euro governments want their loan back. No one was or is willing to accept that the loans are bad and cannot be paid in full.

Force creditors to take losses on bad loans. Obviously you don't let your banks collapse but ideally you have strong frameworks to prevent them from over-leveraging to the point that this is a risk (Which is hard because capitalism actively erodes institutions that do things like this :v:). The idea that you can loan someone money, charge them based on their risk profile and then never actually accept any real risk since you can just have the government pay you off when the debtor can't is extremely hosed up. Just lend money to everyone and collect profits. Socialize the losses and hand them off to the government so taxpayers can cover your mistakes.

Christ.. what a mess.

Thanks for the recap!

the worst thing is
Oct 3, 2013

by FactsAreUseless

Nuclearmonkee posted:

It's great because after WW2 the Germans had a huge amount of their debt forgiven. Sovereign debt forgiveness has happened lots and lots of times throughout European history but it is apparently no longer allowed because ???

Cause international monetary policy is war by other avenues..what's going on isn't always what's going on. It was in everyone's best interest to prop up Germany after the war. Now it is in the majority's best interest to stop the bleeding while they can, since Germany is on the hook for most of the lending in what should be an economic union, and they want to preserve their economic power. There is no rulebook for this kind of thing, and if there were, it would be thrown out at the first adverse situation (kind of like what's happened actually). Countries are always trying to get a leg up, even if there's smiles and handshakes out in public.

Also with money lending comes control, which is also why everyone is desperately trying to avoid a greek default/bankruptcy, but also debt forgiveness, both for the same reason. No debt, no control

the worst thing is fucked around with this message at 18:57 on Jul 16, 2015

Moridin920
Nov 15, 2007

by FactsAreUseless

Tautologicus posted:

Also with money lending comes control, which is also why everyone is desperately trying to avoid a greek default/bankruptcy, but also debt forgiveness, both for the same reason. No debt, no control

Yeah, very true.

Just like a good capitalist worker is now in debt, a good way to control entire nations is to loan them cash and keep them perpetually indebted.

That's basically the International Monetary Fund's purpose.

ArbitraryC
Jan 28, 2009
Pick a number, any number
Pillbug
In this case though didn't they essentially defraud the banks by cooking their books though? Like i understand that banks should eat the loss from bad loans that they understand were risky when they made them but if the people the banks loaned money to provided false information to get more money then it's more reasonable for the gov to step in and help em out.

Shadow
Jun 25, 2002

Moridin920 posted:

I lived in Germany for a while and those dudes are such sticklers about the tiniest little bit of rules or paperwork that they spawned world famous author Franz Kafka - famous for writing about nightmare bureaucracy.

They'll probably be cursing Greece and demanding their payment in full 200 years from now.

Deals with them are like deals with the devil. They don't give a poo poo about bad faith or exigent circumstances. You signed ze papers goddamnit.

lol this is so true. my german and austrian clients were the worst with regards to paperwork. took one of our guys 6 hours each sunday to deal with it. then they got pissed off because we billed that time.

Nuclearmonkee
Jun 10, 2009


ArbitraryC posted:

In this case though didn't they essentially defraud the banks by cooking their books though? Like i understand that banks should eat the loss from bad loans that they understand were risky when they made them but if the people the banks loaned money to provided false information to get more money then it's more reasonable for the gov to step in and help em out.

Unless I am wrong which is quite possible I think Goldman Sachs (who Greece hired) manipulated the books using legal methods.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/greek-debt-crisis-how-goldman-sachs-helped-greece-to-mask-its-true-debt-a-676634.html

Moridin920
Nov 15, 2007

by FactsAreUseless
Yeah afaik the banks that approved the loans were the ones that were helping Greece 'adjust' their poo poo to look more loan worthy in the first place.

Nuclearmonkee
Jun 10, 2009


Moridin920 posted:

Yeah afaik the banks that approved the loans were the ones that were helping Greece 'adjust' their poo poo to look more loan worthy in the first place.

Scams all the way down as is proper in modern investment banking.

ArbitraryC
Jan 28, 2009
Pick a number, any number
Pillbug

Nuclearmonkee posted:

Unless I am wrong which is quite possible I think Goldman Sachs (who Greece hired) manipulated the books using legal methods.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/greek-debt-crisis-how-goldman-sachs-helped-greece-to-mask-its-true-debt-a-676634.html
Hahaha fair enough, what a world we live in.

Nonsense
Jan 26, 2007

golden dawn to target ethnic germans

Moridin920
Nov 15, 2007

by FactsAreUseless

Nuclearmonkee posted:

Scams all the way down as is proper in modern investment banking.

I'm copywriting 'hot potato economics.'

new phone who dis
May 24, 2007

by VideoGames
Morbid Hound
Even if they forgave the debt, wouldn't the Greek economy still be in its unmanageable state pre-loans? Has anything changed to stop them flushing themselves down the toilet if the debt was removed?

Nuclearmonkee
Jun 10, 2009


natetimm posted:

Even if they forgave the debt, wouldn't the Greek economy still be in its unmanageable state pre-loans? Has anything changed to stop them flushing themselves down the toilet if the debt was removed?

They have a primary surplus at the moment. Their tax code is a shambles as are their pension and health system but without the huge debt repayments they'd be fine. Also I don't think anyone is recommending they forgive the entire debt but if Golden Dawn gets into power, them just going "gently caress you not paying" would not surprise me.

hohhat
Sep 25, 2014

Tautologicus posted:

20+ languages spoken on the continent, what could go wrong..

(I won't mention that that implies 20+ different ethnic/cultural groups cause goons hate thinking about that kind of thing)

America has 2 languages spoken and 1 is by second class citizens with no power. And most other people assimilate overtime. We can't hope to understand their situation through the lens of "racism"

Anyway this is largely an economic issue, so far.



*rolls off thai child prostitute to make dumbest possible off-topic post*

Bishop
Aug 15, 2000
Down withe the neo-liberal swine!

But first could you neoliberal swine give us some no strings attached loans?

hohhat
Sep 25, 2014

Bishop posted:

Down withe the neo-liberal swine!

But first could you neoliberal swine give us some no strings attached loans?

At least pensioners are hosed either way.

WAR CRIME GIGOLO
Oct 3, 2012

The Hague
tryna get me
for these glutes

Fat sweaty greek concentration camp guards just don't have the same regard as well trained reichsmen in snazzy uniforms and Jackboots.

Tricky D
Apr 1, 2005

I love um!

Cubone posted:

as i understand it, the european union was an attempt by every developed nation in the western world except for the united states and canada to get together and try to be almost as good as america, and it did not work, and then one of them immediately descended into a fascist shithole.just what happens when you reach too far i guess

europeans seem mostly prone to being hitlers, so we'll just have to see.

Ethno-religious nationalism is one hell of a drug.

new phone who dis
May 24, 2007

by VideoGames
Morbid Hound

Nuclearmonkee posted:

They have a primary surplus at the moment. Their tax code is a shambles as are their pension and health system but without the huge debt repayments they'd be fine. Also I don't think anyone is recommending they forgive the entire debt but if Golden Dawn gets into power, them just going "gently caress you not paying" would not surprise me.

So I guess they just needed the loan to offset their massive debt? What has changed between now and the accrual of that debt that makes the economy better? Everything I read says it's still in the shitter and people can't find work.

the worst thing is
Oct 3, 2013

by FactsAreUseless

Agag posted:

*rolls off thai child prostitute to make dumbest possible off-topic post*

Idiot

the worst thing is
Oct 3, 2013

by FactsAreUseless
I actually am a Thai underage hooker, my customers often tell me the ways and secrets of the world in the post-coital afterglow..the ol boipussy for trade secrets gambit.

Toadvine
Mar 16, 2009
Please disregard my advice w/r/t history.
I love the term boypussy

skeletonotherkin
Sep 26, 2014

Agag posted:

*rolls off thai child prostitute to make dumbest possible off-topic post*

The good news is that Tautologicus cannot return to the US without facing criminal charges.

hohhat
Sep 25, 2014

Toadvine posted:

I love the term boypussy

*boipussy

etalian
Mar 20, 2006

Moridin920 posted:

I lived in Germany for a while and those dudes are such sticklers about the tiniest little bit of rules or paperwork that they spawned world famous author Franz Kafka - famous for writing about nightmare bureaucracy.

They'll probably be cursing Greece and demanding their payment in full 200 years from now.

Deals with them are like deals with the devil. They don't give a poo poo about bad faith or exigent circumstances. You signed ze papers goddamnit.

I like the funny observation by economist Mark Blythe on how his German father in law saves 20% of his pension each month.

The whole crisis is a classic example of penny wise pound foolish since the cost of defusing the situation is much less than the potential domino effect.

Toadvine
Mar 16, 2009
Please disregard my advice w/r/t history.

Agag posted:

*boipussy

No that's gay

Blue Raider
Sep 2, 2006

shitpussy

Fur20
Nov 14, 2007

すご▞い!
君は働か░い
フ▙▓ズなんだね!

afeelgoodpoop posted:

for a mountainous island country they'd make one that was amphibious and maybe something cool like giving it legs like boston dynamics big dog.

what makes you think a nation that builds cars that not even third world countries want could build a goddamn metal gear

the worst thing is
Oct 3, 2013

by FactsAreUseless

skeletonotherkin posted:

The good news is that Tautologicus cannot return to the US without facing criminal charges.

I'm not a fan of this interpretation of things tbh.

Tiberius Thyben
Feb 7, 2013

Gone Phishing


The White Dragon posted:

what makes you think a nation that builds cars that not even third world countries want could build a goddamn metal gear

Zanzibar land pulled it off.

Sekenr
Dec 12, 2013




Nuclearmonkee posted:

It's great because after WW2 the Germans had a huge amount of their debt forgiven. Sovereign debt forgiveness has happened lots and lots of times throughout European history but it is apparently no longer allowed because ???

Because Greece wasn't ravaged by war and carpet bombed into oblivion. Their economy is not tuned to do anything other than borrow and spend and they throw a fit when asked to change anything. Other thing - it sets a bad precedent, why should say Slovakia bother balancing their economy if they can just kick back, relax and than wail about European solidarity when money runs out?

A Stupid Baby
Dec 31, 2002

lip up fatty

natetimm posted:

Even if they forgave the debt, wouldn't the Greek economy still be in its unmanageable state pre-loans? Has anything changed to stop them flushing themselves down the toilet if the debt was removed?

Well one of the problems that Greece has is that it's not really super competitive when it comes to manufacturing, technology, or agricultural production. It's not true to say that they don't have any of those industries period, but in terms of global competition they don't really beat out any of the competition in markets which aren't basically automatically theirs (certain foods are only allowed to be called such if they come from Greece, tourism, etc). I can't recall the last time I saw a Greek-produced product that wasn't in the dairy aisle of a supermarket.

Being in a single currency with Germany is also a large problem. There's effectively no way Greece can even hope to achieve fiscal parity with Germany even without the albatross of enormous sanctions. Greece will probably eventually leave the Euro if its members don't decide that keeping it in is worth the long term subsidy it will cost (which it might, geographically it's in a really bad place for a possible failed state)

Sekenr posted:

Because Greece wasn't ravaged by war and carpet bombed into oblivion. Their economy is not tuned to do anything other than borrow and spend and they throw a fit when asked to change anything. Other thing - it sets a bad precedent, why should say Slovakia bother balancing their economy if they can just kick back, relax and than wail about European solidarity when money runs out?

You might as well say that forgiving Germany's debt would be an incentive to other countries to rely on belligerence as a way to shed debt (and one of Germany's reasons for electing Hitler and starting the war was their crippling WW1 debt)

A Stupid Baby fucked around with this message at 09:31 on Jul 17, 2015

President Kucinich
Feb 21, 2003

Bitterly Clinging to my AK47 and Das Kapital

Between Germany smashing the EU, China's stock market collapsing, and Putin isolating Russia, US hegemony is looking pretty healthy.

Thanks World.

Sekenr
Dec 12, 2013




A Stupid Baby posted:

You might as well say that forgiving Germany's debt would be an incentive to other countries to rely on belligerence as a way to shed debt (and one of Germany's reasons for electing Hitler and starting the war was their crippling WW1 debt)

Meh, you just wrote it for argument's sake surely you don't believe that someone will try lure EU into bombing them just to have their debt forgiven afterwards.

Hogge Wild
Aug 21, 2012

by FactsAreUseless
Pillbug

A Stupid Baby posted:

You might as well say that forgiving Germany's debt would be an incentive to other countries to rely on belligerence as a way to shed debt (and one of Germany's reasons for electing Hitler and starting the war was their crippling WW1 debt)

Well, it worked.

Tiberius Thyben
Feb 7, 2013

Gone Phishing


I'm Greek Hitler AMA.

Saint Isaias Boner
Jan 17, 2007

hi how are you

President Kucinich posted:

Between Germany smashing the EU, China's stock market collapsing, and Putin isolating Russia, US hegemony is looking pretty healthy.

Thanks World.

A belligerent Germany running the EU through coercion is a threat to US hegemony. The EU as it stands now is pretty much what the US wants and it's probably why the IMF is suddenly blubbering over debt relief when up to now they've been stone cold mobsters when it comes to getting paid.

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General Dog
Apr 26, 2008

Everybody's working for the weekend
I kind doubt anyone in Greece has the work ethic required to be the next Hitler.

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