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MrNemo posted:Which is fine until you remember this whole argument started with someone who is aware of all that and was fully in favour of it all as a positive development towards True Communism as exemplified by such glorious Socialist states as China, Vietnam (both pretty good examples of entrenched oligarchies practising crony capitalism) North Korea (just lol) Who's defending North Korea as an example of Communism? They follow the Juche ideology. MrNemo posted:and Cuba (I'd argue more a socialist dictatorship and largely has avoided market capitalism because of its deliberate exclusion). All countries which are ran by communist parties and have removed the capitalist system yet have not reached full rawdogging moneyless stateless communism are "socialist dictatorships", so trying to describe Cuba as "more a socialist dictatorship" as supposed to a communist-ran country is jibberish nonsense. MrNemo posted:The human nature argument came about because he was also arguing that there's no such thing, while also accepting that we share a common biology. So either he believes that brain plasticity means every human being is a totally blank slate in terms of development (and it's pure chance we've ended up with things like common emotions over common experiences) or his concept of a human nature is the incredibly strawman idea of it requiring all human beings be 100% identical. Nope. But relying on human nature as an anticommunist argument requires "human nature" to dictate negative innate unconscious behaviors to the degree that free will doesn't exist, and that actually verifiable human actions cannot have ever happened. "I was trying to do a selfless act but the human nature/thetans/demon in my head made me stab this hobo instead". The existence of nice people simply destroys it. Straight up. If we can't do something nice like socialism because "human nature" makes being nice impossible, why did I give a homeless person a sausage roll yesterday? Checkmate athiests. MrNemo posted:Which is the lengths you have to go to when you're arguing with someone who sees the deaths of 100s of millions as a positive step in human development. HorseLord fucked around with this message at 03:10 on Jul 21, 2015 |
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Jul 21, 2015 03:06
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Crowsbeak posted:They were really about equal in their horribleness. British: Hey africans would you like to be dragged onto a boat at gunpoint and forced to pick cotton for years until your owner eventually beats you a bit too hard and you die Soviets: Hey africans would you like a Visa and free university education with all living costs covered No, they're not "about equal". The British Empire lasted for centuries and it's known atrocities run far deeper than even the wildest poo poo Conquest and the Hearst papers could spin up about the USSR.
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Jul 21, 2015 03:18
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HorseLord posted:Soviets: Hey africans would you like a Visa and free university education with all living costs covered
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Jul 21, 2015 03:31
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Soviets: Hey Ukrainians, would you like food? Haha there's no food! Stalin personally ate all of the food in the Ukraine. The rest of the USSR, however, was clearly having a bountiful harvest.
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Jul 21, 2015 03:32
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Soviets: Hey Ukrainians, would you like food? Haha there's no food! British: Hey Irish, would you like food? Haha there's no food! British: Hey, Indians, would you like food? Haha there's no food! Is Gandhi dead yet lmao?
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Jul 21, 2015 03:35
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Judging from crowsbeak and horselord this thread is actually titled "china abuses human rights. colonial england also abuses human rights" also, does pushing a bullshit anti-Mendelian plant science for political reasons count as eating all the food in the Ukraine/Russia? I think it counts
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Jul 21, 2015 03:43
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This poster loves police brutality, but only when its against minorities!
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HorseLord posted:Nope. But relying on human nature as an anticommunist argument requires "human nature" to dictate negative innate unconscious behaviors to the degree that free will doesn't exist, and that actually verifiable human actions cannot have ever happened. "I was trying to do a selfless act but the human nature/thetans/demon in my head made me stab this hobo instead". The existence of nice people simply destroys it. Holy poo poo free will. Great so you accept we have certain biological limitations? Free will is about our ability to make choices within the constraints of our physical situation, the fact that I can't choose to take wing and soar through the sky by myself isn't a limitation on my free will. The fact that I can't successfully choose to continute my life without bothering to eat isn't a constraint on free will. Why is saying, 'there are physical factors, in this case our need for social hierarchies which we need some way to express and do so through acquisition of valuable materials, which our current situation can't move beyond because scarcity dictates value.' radically different? I am perfectly willing to concede that True Communism could be possible in a situation where material goods have lost value by losing their scarcity. I will concede that a socialist dictatorship is a necessary milestone on the road to Marxist Communism. However I'd like you to highlight the social changes this has achieved in the Cuban people that has moved them away from valuing material possessions, moving away from family/in-group psychology or any other radical departure from human behaviour. gently caress just present a good argument to me that would show Cuba isn't going to go down the same route of crony capitalism we see in other nations where there's an entrenched power base controlling access to material goods. I like Communism as an idea but in practise it's a system of resource allocation that requires an extremely effective outside agent to administer. You know what? I'd even accept Communism might be possible if we can construct some super AI that is best able to predict and react to needs and allocate people to work but we're looking at a situation just as sci-fi as being post scarcity in that situation. Either that or we assume that if we kill off everyone who acts badly we will produce a race of people who will always make the best choice for society, again if you can point me to a historical example that succeeded I'll concede this argument because it definitely isn't a totally new innovation.
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Jul 21, 2015 03:45
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MrNemo posted:Holy poo poo free will. Great so you accept we have certain biological limitations? Free will is about our ability to make choices within the constraints of our physical situation, the fact that I can't choose to take wing and soar through the sky by myself isn't a limitation on my free will. Being a good person is not rendered impossible by basic human biology. To compare the simple idea of Being Excellent To Each Other (Communist Party On Dudes) to trying to fly by flapping wings you don't have is utterly moronic. The rest of that ignorant poo poo you said has already been answered a long time ago, so I recommend maybe reading some Marx so you're at least caught up with 19th century political economy. HorseLord fucked around with this message at 04:02 on Jul 21, 2015 |
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Jul 21, 2015 03:59
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So how far back are we allowed to take the "You did X in the past so you can't criticize us for doing X now" thing? IMO everything Italy says should be disregarded after what happened at Carthage.
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Jul 21, 2015 04:00
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HorseLord posted:Who's defending North Korea as an example of Communism? They follow the Juche ideology. Oh my god.
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Jul 21, 2015 04:07
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Fojar38 posted:Oh my god. It's literally true. You might as well critique the Obama administration as if it was a monarchy for all the good it'd do.
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Jul 21, 2015 04:48
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HorseLord posted:It's literally true. You might as well critique the Obama administration as if it was a monarchy for all the good it'd do. You are the first person I have ever seen that treated Juche as if it were an actual thing.
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Jul 21, 2015 04:50
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Juche is a military focused doctrine with weird racial ideas. It's pretty much Nazism but inwards looking and isolated instead of expansionist and genocidal.
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Jul 21, 2015 04:52
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^ I don't think that's a very good way of thinking about it. The DPRK has broken from the Communist project because it's impossible for such a thing to continue in their extremely isolated state. Juche can be boiled down to a desire to preserve themselves exactly as they are for as long as possible entirely out of spite towards those who've ever wronged them, which is why they're so consistently antiamerican in rhetoric despite the obvious gains to be had in collaboration instead. They're a fascinating country, no threat to communists, but nobody's role model either. Don't poke the hornet nest, everyone. Fojar38 posted:You are the first person I have ever seen that treated Juche as if it were an actual thing. I don't think you've met many North Koreans, then. HorseLord fucked around with this message at 05:02 on Jul 21, 2015 |
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Jul 21, 2015 04:54
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HorseLord posted:I don't think you've met many North Koreans, then. Oh, what did all the North Koreans you've met say?
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Jul 21, 2015 05:03
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Fojar38 posted:Oh, what did all the North Koreans you've met say? Quite a lot, they were entirely candid about no longer seeing the communist stage of development as attainable for their country without a dramatic shift in world politics equal to at least a reversal of the fall of the soviet bloc, about how the DPRK has essentially dug trenches in and focuses on self preservation above all, etc. They showed me a cool book of North Korean agitprop, and told me that the embassy was going to be hosting an art gallery soon (2014). They also laughed when one of us brought up all the Wacky North Koreans propaganda that tabloids like to publish. Unsurprisingly to everyone except GBS and D&D posters, they neither believe in unicorns or that story about 18 holes in one. All things considered the ones I met were very nice.
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Jul 21, 2015 05:15
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quote:Quite a lot, they were entirely candid about no longer seeing the communist stage of development as attainable for their country without a dramatic shift in world politics equal to at least a reversal of the fall of the soviet bloc, You'll forgive me if I'm skeptical about your reports that the North Koreans pine for the return of the Soviet bloc more than anything else and not, say, South Korean standards of living.
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Jul 21, 2015 05:21
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Fojar38 posted:You'll forgive me if I'm skeptical about your reports that the North Koreans pine for the return of the Soviet bloc more than anything else and not, say, South Korean standards of living. You can be as skeptical as you like about that because I didn't say it.
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Jul 21, 2015 05:26
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HorseLord posted:without a dramatic shift in world politics equal to at least a reversal of the fall of the soviet bloc, That's what you said. You said that what North Koreans apparently told you they want is a return to communism brought on by the re-establishment of some sort of communist bloc. I'm saying you're full of poo poo.
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Jul 21, 2015 05:28
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Fojar38 posted:That's what you said. You said that what North Koreans apparently told you they want is a return to communism brought on by the re-establishment of some sort of communist bloc. I'm saying you're full of poo poo. No, I literally did not say that. Here's what I said, without key words removed or ignored by you: HorseLord posted:they were entirely candid about no longer seeing the communist stage of development as attainable for their country without a dramatic shift in world politics equal to at least a reversal of the fall of the soviet bloc This what you quoted. In it, I say how the North Koreans I have spoken to have given up on communism, because they see it as no longer possible for the DPRK. They think that something amazingly huge and very unlikely would have to happen to change that. The example of such a thing would be if the Soviet Bloc somehow magically returned. Nowhere in this is there a judgement on if they would like to live as well as South Koreans or not. That is the entire meaning of what you quoted. Do you often need incredibly clear things explaining to you? Perhaps you should hire a helper. Maybe for people like you, lowtax can make a special "simple english somethingawful". Or perhaps a browser plugin that reads all the words, extra slow, so you don't miss any? HorseLord fucked around with this message at 05:43 on Jul 21, 2015 |
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Jul 21, 2015 05:34
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DeusExMachinima posted:Judging from crowsbeak and horselord this thread is actually titled "china abuses human rights. colonial england also abuses human rights"  Yes I am defending china where? Also the problems in the Ukraine had nothing to do with that bunch of bullshit and just Stalin not planning properly and wanting to keep up exports. Which also makes the Holdomar alot like the famine in Ireland. HorseLord posted:Who's defending North Korea as an example of Communism? They follow the Juche ideology.  MrNemo posted:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JfnFXdkSTI
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Jul 21, 2015 05:47
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HorseLord posted:That is the entire meaning of what you quoted. Do you often need incredibly clear things explaining to you? Perhaps you should hire a helper. Maybe for people like you, lowtax can make a special "simple english somethingawful". Or perhaps a browser plugin that reads all the words, extra slow, so you don't miss any? layin down some sick burns here quote:In it, I say how the North Koreans I have spoken to have given up on communism, because they see it as no longer possible for the DPRK. They think that something amazingly huge and very unlikely would have to happen to change that. The example of such a thing would be if the Soviet Bloc somehow magically returned. Lol at the notion that the majority of North Koreans are ideologically motivated enough to want "communism" specifically and not "to stop starving to death." I'd really like to know more about this North Korean you spoke to. Was this in England or did you go to South Korea? When was it? Where were they educated? Were you actually talking about Marxist theory or were they just using "communism" as shorthand for the above "not starving to death" ideology?
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Jul 21, 2015 05:50
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Fojar38 posted:Lol at the notion that the majority of North Koreans are ideologically motivated enough to want "communism" specifically and not "to stop starving to death." This is your notion. Remember that literally in my last post I had to underline how you're misreading and making poo poo up. You're still struggling with "given up on", and I have no idea what gives you the idea I'm claiming DPRK state ideology as communicated to me by individual Koreans has any bearing on the ideological motivation of any Korean that I've not met. I suppose you'll get it eventually? Fojar38 posted:I'd really like to know more about this North Korean you spoke to. Was this in England or did you go to South Korea? When was it? Where were they educated? Were you actually talking about Marxist theory or were they just using "communism" as shorthand for the above "not starving to death" ideology? Why would I go to South Korea to talk to North Koreans? That's like going to Wales to talk to Americans. London, Last year, didn't ask, the former, and people like you have been going "lol North Koreans all starve to death 24/7" for so long that if it was true they would have all finished doing it by now. Generally speaking "Starving to death" is something that tends to become past tense for the people doing it, one way or another. HorseLord fucked around with this message at 06:07 on Jul 21, 2015 |
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Jul 21, 2015 06:01
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HorseLord posted:Why would I go to South Korea to talk to North Koreans? That's like going to Wales to talk to Americans. Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh quote:London, Last year, didn't ask, the former, and people like you have been going "lol North Koreans all starve to death 24/7" for so long that if it was true they would have all finished doing it by now. "Ehe, actually, all North Koreans can't technically be starving to death because then there would be no North Koreans. Checkmate, capitalist pig.  "
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Jul 21, 2015 06:07
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Fojar38 posted:Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Hint: If I was going to travel outside of my country to meet North Koreans, I would go to North Korea. You can do that.
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Jul 21, 2015 06:08
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HorseLord posted:Hint: If I was going to travel outside of my country to meet North Koreans, I would go to North Korea. You can do that. I wish you'd go to North Korea.
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Jul 21, 2015 06:17
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HorseLord posted:The DPRK has broken from the Communist project because it's impossible This is an excellent point.
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Jul 21, 2015 06:42
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Unironic Stalinists vs. retarded essentialists. Thread delivers no one to root for.
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Jul 21, 2015 07:32
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Please explain the part where 'humans respond to their material conditions in generally predictable ways and while those conditions, partly determined by the structures of society, can be adapted we can't just stop people wanting things like food.' I guess 'human society will inevitable have some form of power structure without a moderating outside influence and said power structure will probably use distribution of goods as a means to maintain its position' is kind of essentialist in that it rules out a totally egalitarian human society. At least that seems to be how it's functioned on the large scale level up to now. None of this makes necessary judgements about human interactions on an individual level, I also think there's scope within modern democractic systems for much greater economic reform and more equitable distribution of resources. Possibly the outside influences necessary to contain a power structure's desire to control said distribution is to create a system separate from that power structure rather than a superadvanced AI that can actually carry out a centrally planned economy. I have no idea what the future of human society will end up looking like but I'd take a pretty strong bet that will have people at the top and people at the bottom and I only hope that the bottom is relatively high up and they pyramid relatively flattened. Or that we've all got the exact same stuff and are basing social worth and political power on how many likes we've gotten on Instagram or something.
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Jul 21, 2015 08:01
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Fojar38 posted:I wish you'd go to North Korea. dude it's pointless to argue horselord is like an unironic stalinist that even most of the hard left stays away from basically someone who should be thanking marx that the revolution is never gonna happen in his life time because he's gonna be this revolutions's version of zinoviev or kamnev and lined up against his own wall and shot
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Jul 21, 2015 08:55
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North Korea isn't communist, though.  The idea that North Korea has more to do with Imperial Japan than Communism is defended here, this isn't HorseLord's exact thesis but that they aren't communist isn't some crazy fringe notion. And straining really hard to scoff at it doesn't make his description of meeting some North Koreans any less ordinary.
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Jul 21, 2015 14:22
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Getting a feel for the pulse of DPRK from Norks with foreign-travel privileges is like asking the 0.01% to describe what homelessness is like.
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Jul 21, 2015 15:48
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I've got one North Korean student, I haven't talked to her about politics as that would be grossly unprofessional but I did remark on the rarity of meeting anyone from North Korea. She told me that lots of North Koreans go abroad and visit other countries so clearly it's a wonderful place and all the talk of oppression is just Western Imperialist scaremongering. She also actively avoids the 3 or 4 South Korean students here in an almost funny 'If I don't look at them then I didn't see them and obviously can't hear them saying hello in Korean,' in of way.
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Jul 21, 2015 16:04
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Typo posted:dude it's pointless to argue horselord is like an unironic stalinist that even most of the hard left stays away from Trotskyists aren't hard left, you'll notice they're in power in Greece right now and are being huge pussies over everything.
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Jul 21, 2015 17:31
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HorseLord posted:Trotskyists aren't hard left, you'll notice they're in power in Greece right now and are being huge pussies over everything. sounds like they're in need of a good stalinist purge doesn't it?
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Jul 21, 2015 17:32
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http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2015/07/21/cops-steal-monk-s-ashes-at-gunpoint.html China refuses to hand family the ashes of their family member. But this is fine being that the USA put some activist through a checkpoint.
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Jul 21, 2015 17:54
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I'm havin' a big laff at these D&D scholars who think North Korea is a communist country. I guess they're the type of people who loudly proclaim that Obama is a socialist, that Israel is not an apartheid state, or that Kanye West is uppity and not the greatest musician of the last decade.
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Jul 21, 2015 18:28
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Reminder that Tibet should be freed, and any Han that currently live in Tibet should be enslaved by the Dalai Lama as just compensation. Also if you oppose Tibet being free you likely support the Apartheid State Is it real.
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Jul 21, 2015 18:31
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Peel posted:North Korea isn't communist, though. I know they aren't communist, what I was lolling at was the notion that North Koreans right now care about the purity of their ideological system in any way shape or form and the insinuation that a North Korean told a Stalinist that the best way to save North Korea is to bring back the Soviet bloc.
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Jul 21, 2015 18:34
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Nonsense posted:Reminder that Tibet should be freed, and any Han that currently live in Tibet should be enslaved by the Dalai Lama as just compensation. So its fine that China won't let that family get the guys ashes?
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Jul 21, 2015 18:39
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