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Who said treason isn't a major crime? I just don't believe the death penalty is ever appropriate. Depending on the seriousness of the specific act of treason I'd be fine with life in prison (since there isn't a rehabilitative prison system).
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Aug 1, 2015 16:43
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JonathonSpectre posted:LOL at "Why is treason so bad guys? It's just another minor mistake like jaywalking!" Again, he wasn't prosecuted for treason so I don't get why we're talking about treason in the first place. And treason has a five year minimum sentence. Rape of a child up to 12 usually starts at 10 years. I think that's appropriate--there can be a lot more extenuating circumstances for treason than there can be for child rape. What criteria are you using to claim this? Obdicut fucked around with this message at 16:56 on Aug 1, 2015 |
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Aug 1, 2015 16:49
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Ograbme posted:Is this actually true? Yes.
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Aug 1, 2015 16:54
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Just imagine that Pollard gave away state secrets to Cuba out of personal conviction, and received no pecuniary gain. Then he's a hero. Treason is a very serious crime, obviously. It's defined in 18 U.S. Code § 2381 as "Whoever, [1]owing allegiance to the United States, [2]levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, [3]giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States." [I parsed it by adding numbers for each element.] Pollard doesn't meet [2], as Israel was not an enemy at the time of Pollard's offenses. He pled guilty to a lesser crime, as part of a plea agreement. Personally, I think he deserved severe punishment for selling out his country, and that Israel should be told to get hosed with regards to any pressure it exerts for lenient treatment. To know he spent ages 32-61 in federal prison satisfies my bloodlust. He's a broken man who poses no threat to national security. Let him shuffle off to Israel to die, forgotten.
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Aug 1, 2015 16:54
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TheImmigrant posted:Just imagine that Pollard gave away state secrets to Cuba out of personal conviction, and received no pecuniary gain. Then he's a hero. No, he's not. Be serious. TheImmigrant posted:To know he spent ages 32-61 in federal prison satisfies my bloodlust. He's a broken man who poses no threat to national security. Let him shuffle off to Israel to die, forgotten. This is where I stand. He's lost half of his life to federal prison. The only irritating thing is that he'll spend the rest of his life being fellated by Israeli chauvinists.
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Aug 1, 2015 17:23
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TheImmigrant posted:Let him shuffle off to Israel to die, forgotten. He won't die forgotten in Israel, that's for sure.  He would've died forgotten if he remained in prison for the rest of his miserable days.
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Aug 1, 2015 17:25
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Jack of Hearts posted:This is where I stand. He's lost half of his life to federal prison. The only irritating thing is that he'll spend the rest of his life being fellated by Israeli chauvinists. Why is that irritating? Why do you care what happens to a convict after release from prison, so long as he's not continuing to commit crimes? I don't think Pollard would choose elderly exile and a few moments in the spotlight of the Israeli right over thirty years of the prime of his life.
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Aug 1, 2015 17:29
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TheImmigrant posted:Why is that irritating? Why do you care what happens to a convict after release from prison, so long as he's not continuing to commit crimes? I don't think Pollard would choose elderly exile and a few moments in the spotlight of the Israeli right over thirty years of the prime of his life. Why shouldn't I be (slightly) irritated by the knowledge that he'll profit off of his crimes for the remainder of his life?
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Aug 1, 2015 17:35
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Jack of Hearts posted:Why shouldn't I be (slightly) irritated by the knowledge that he'll profit off of his crimes for the remainder of his life? Imagine a balance sheet, with incarceration from ages 32-61 on one side, a few minutes of exile in the spotlight followed by obscure exile on the other. How's it look? Sellouts who betray their home country don't make lasting heroes anywhere.
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Aug 1, 2015 17:41
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TheImmigrant posted:How's it look? Sellouts who betray their home country don't make lasting heroes anywhere. You're really underestimating how much the Israeli right-wing likes this guy.
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Aug 1, 2015 17:49
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Abner Cadaver II posted:You're really underestimating how much the Israeli right-wing likes this guy. You're probably overestimating how long they'll remember him if he makes it to Israel after release.
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Aug 1, 2015 17:56
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TheImmigrant posted:You're probably overestimating how long they'll remember him if he makes it to Israel after release. That largely depends on how representative Kirschen is of his demographic.
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Aug 1, 2015 18:00
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From the Time (really, Time?) link above: It would probably be an exaggeration to say that Pollard will receive a hero’s welcome if and when he arrives in Israel, as the spy scandal is viewed by the Israeli public as an embarrassment caused by senior intelligence officers who recruited Pollard to steal top secret American material. But many Israelis believe that Pollard’s sentence was unduly harsh, and they note that no other American was ever given a life sentence for passing classified information to a US ally.
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Aug 1, 2015 18:05
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And from a different article:quote:Jonathan Pollard’s incarceration is close to a national obsession in Israel, where he has gone from being a source of embarrassment to a cause célèbre. Whether or not the majority of Israelis feel it's an embarrassment or not doesn't matter. It's the hard-line right-wing that's holding him up as a hero and they have a fairly tight grip on political power there right now.
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Aug 1, 2015 18:12
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Likud is in power  if you think he won't get a hero's welcome. BiBi hates Obammer.
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Aug 1, 2015 21:12
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Nonsense posted:Likud is in power Why, is Obama Ethiopian?
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Aug 1, 2015 22:40
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Gravel Gravy posted:Why, is Obama Ethiopian? Close enough for the Israeli right.
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Aug 1, 2015 22:50
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Jack of Hearts posted:No, he's not. Be serious. Ok. Pretend he passed secrets to any other nation on earth besides Israel and try to imagine the same bloodthirsty howls for his death by the same crowd of self-described "leftists". And that's without touching on the fact that the more outlandish claims about the untold havoc Pollard supposedly wreaked is just as unsubstantiated and comes from the same security apparatus sources who have been saying the exact same things about Manning and Snowden.
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Aug 3, 2015 09:54
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The Insect Court posted:Ok. Pretend he passed secrets to any other nation on earth besides Israel and try to imagine the same bloodthirsty howls for his death by the same crowd of self-described "leftists". We don't have to pretend that.
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Aug 3, 2015 11:44
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His point is that you're overly hungry for blood because it's Israel. Would you support the execution of a guy who sold Intel to the Iranians or the Chinese, or Cuba?
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Aug 3, 2015 13:35
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I suppose we'll find out in 2023. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ana_Montes#Incarceration
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Aug 3, 2015 13:41
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Last Buffalo posted:His point is that you're overly hungry for blood because it's Israel. Would you support the execution of a guy who sold Intel to the Iranians or the Chinese, or Cuba? The relevant point is that the crime was against his society, not who he sold the information to though that has human rights concerns if he sold it to say, apartheid South Africa and Israel also. But in the context of a purely domestic assessment of his crime what he did with the information afterwards is irrelevant, except in the case that he released it to the public on the basis that it was in the public interest.
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Aug 3, 2015 13:41
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Last Buffalo posted:His point is that you're overly hungry for blood because it's Israel. Would you support the execution of a guy who sold Intel to the Iranians or the Chinese, or Cuba? I'd support it exactly as much as I would support the execution of Pollard.
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Aug 3, 2015 13:49
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OK, great. Now, would you support Israel executing a known spy working for Hamas? Even if they had iron-clad evidence? I wouldn't, because I think the death penalty is a faulty practice that's too easily corrupted and applied wrong. Also, I wouldn't kill Pollard. Him rotting in jail doesn't bother me at all. Getting parole isn't bothering me that much, since he served a long sentence and won't be doing it again. The problem in this situation is a bad institution in Israel, not just one rear end in a top hat with money problems. Killing him would do nothing but satisfy blood lust and the need for a martyr.
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Aug 3, 2015 15:54
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I don't know, if I'm gonna be killed for committing treason I'm not gonna want to do it as much.
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Aug 3, 2015 16:07
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The Insect Court posted:Ok. Pretend he passed secrets to any other nation on earth besides Israel and try to imagine the same bloodthirsty howls for his death by the same crowd of self-described "leftists". Aldrich Ames and Robert Hanssen will never see the outside of a prison cell, and that's just dandy with me. If both of them had been executed, that would've been fine too.
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Aug 3, 2015 16:10
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drilldo squirt posted:I don't know, if I'm gonna be killed for committing treason I'm not gonna want to do it as much. But you will commit treason since you'll "only" end up in prison for 30 years? That's a bit more than I've been alive.
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Aug 3, 2015 16:13
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If an Israeli citizen sold the Israeli signal intelligence bible to Hamas, an extremely harsh punishment would be appropriate. I don't think the death penalty is necessary but I definitely think 20 to 40 years in prison, travel bans, plus near guaranteed post-prison financial ruin is a pretty fitting punishment for selling state secrets.
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Aug 3, 2015 16:17
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Zanzibar Ham posted:But you will commit treason since you'll "only" end up in prison for 30 years? That's a bit more than I've been alive. "Treason" has an element that wasn't present in Pollard's case. Treason involves aiding the enemies of one's country with detrimental intent toward one's country. No one has demonstrated that Pollard wished to injure the US - just that he wanted or needed money.
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Aug 3, 2015 16:20
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So it's not treason because he was just indifferent to the well-being of the US?
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Aug 3, 2015 16:24
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Abner Cadaver II posted:So it's not treason because he was just indifferent to the well-being of the US? It's not treason because words have definitions, and Pollard's actions do not match the definition of "treason."
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Aug 3, 2015 16:26
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5 U.S.C. §3331 posted:I, [name], do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God. Someone fill me in as to where I can find financial gain as an exception for not breaking the oath. Or perhaps how selling secrets is in line with the oath. Maybe it's in the next section but OPM didn't seem to include it. Edit: Further how is offering aid to Iran which by all measure was hostile towards the US at the time, not giving comfort? You're taking an awfully roundabout way just to be contrarian. Gin and Juche fucked around with this message at 16:33 on Aug 3, 2015 |
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Aug 3, 2015 16:26
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TheImmigrant posted:It's not treason because words have definitions, and Pollard's actions do not match the definition of "treason." Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States. There's nothing in there about whether the intent behind giving aid and comfort is anti-US or just selfish.
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Aug 3, 2015 16:31
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Abner Cadaver II posted:levies war against them or adheres to their enemies I don't know how to make this simpler for you. Interpretive finger paints, perhaps?
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Aug 3, 2015 16:33
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TheImmigrant posted:I don't know how to make this simpler for you. Interpretive finger paints, perhaps? I didn't realize the legal definition of "adhere" was specifically "has openly declared allegiance to", I thought it just meant "cooperates with" (I wouldn't be a good lawyer!).
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Aug 3, 2015 16:39
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Zanzibar Ham posted:But you will commit treason since you'll "only" end up in prison for 30 years? That's a bit more than I've been alive. That's just one end of the reward/punishment spectrum and it ignores the perceived likelihood of that consequence happening. You could get away with selling secrets and live like a king in Israel. You could get caught, get a pretty light sentence, and move to Israel to live off a generous stipend. Worst case, you could get caught, spend decades in jail like Pollard, while your family prospers in Israel and you're treated by the Israeli right as a hero. Selling state secrets is also the type of crime that has a potential to result in great harm to society. I see no downside to erring on the side of being extremely harsh with punishments because anything that even slightly reduces the chances of someone making this kind of decision has the potential for greatly reducing potential harm.
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Aug 3, 2015 16:43
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CSPAN Caller posted:That's just one end of the reward/punishment spectrum and it ignores the perceived likelihood of that consequence happening. You could get away with selling secrets and live like a king in Israel. You could get caught, get a pretty light sentence, and move to Israel to live off a generous stipend. Worst case, you could get caught, spend decades in jail like Pollard, while your family prospers in Israel and you're treated by the Israeli right as a hero. Before I write a reply, are you for the death penalty or against it?
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Aug 3, 2015 16:44
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I think life in prison without parole should be the maximum punishment for any crime.
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Aug 3, 2015 16:50
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CSPAN Caller posted:I think life in prison without parole should be the maximum punishment for any crime. Okay, then we don't really disagree. I also believe Pollard should have a very severe punishment for his very severe crime, but not death. Whether it's life in prison or 30 years in prison then never being able to go to Israel to live like a king is for someone better than me at judging sentences to decide. Of course if the US just lets Pollard go to Israel it'll be pretty lame, though I'd be interested to see how long it'll take people to forget Pollard existed once he comes here. I remember there was a person imprisoned in Egypt on charges of spying for Israel, and it took 8 years to bring him back, and at first he appeared on TV all the time but now I don't hear about him at all. But now that I read a bit about him (his name is Azzam Azzam) this can easily be explained with the fact that he's a Druze.
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Aug 3, 2015 16:56
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OwlFancier posted:The relevant point is that the crime was against his society, not who he sold the information to though that has human rights concerns if he sold it to say, apartheid South Africa and Israel also. Can you reconcile this view with the Edward Snowden case?
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Aug 3, 2015 17:16
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