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-Troika- posted:The whole "make the parent company liable for labor violations of the franchise" thing is retarded It sucks that America is so unfriendly to huge corporations and the super wealthy.  So much freedom hating in this dimming light of a nation.
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Aug 16, 2015 09:20
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ChairMaster posted:Wait do people not like self-checkouts? I can self checkout in the same amount of time that it takes one of the clerks to do it except people don't take very large amounts of groceries into them so there's never a line up Plus why encourage stores to fire people without lowering prices? ChairMaster posted:and I don't have to look at or talk to another person If its not then get some therapy.
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Aug 16, 2015 09:24
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FRINGE posted:Its faster to hand a human my items and a $20 bill than fight with some juvenile computer telling me I set my stuff down in the "bagging area" wrong and need to wait for "assistance". weigh scales: the impossible problem Forceholy posted:During my time in Fast Food, I've met more than a few workers who LOVED working minimum wage fast food. Mind you, they were mostly shift managers and acted like Ryan Reynolds character in the film "Waiting", but they exist. i loved working foodservice. it was fun as hell, the pace of the job really clicked with me. but it paid for poo poo so i had to get a white collar office job i'm pretty sure i did more for society working in a restaurant than i do making horrible software for corporations boner confessor fucked around with this message at 09:49 on Aug 16, 2015 |
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Aug 16, 2015 09:46
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Popular Thug Drink posted:i'm pretty sure i did more for society working in a restaurant than i do making horrible software for corporations It's quite possible. For every group of programmers doing something cool like self driving cars, there's 15 making sure that a prick in accounting can reduce human beings into numbers to better justify running their life after their jobs get outsourced.
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Aug 16, 2015 09:55
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foobardog posted:It's quite possible. For every group of programmers doing something cool like self driving cars, there's 15 making sure that a prick in accounting can reduce human beings into numbers to better justify running their life after their jobs get outsourced. That's kind of the problem with progress in general, especially computer science (yes I'm a CS major why do you ask?). Humans are actually kind of lazy and always want an easier or cheaper way to do something so somebody, somewhere is always looking for it. If you look at human history it's been a long history of getting more efficient in the way we do things. Now we're automating everything and just don't need warm bodies to be doing much of the work. Whether we like it or not more and more formerly human jobs are going to be done by robots. You can't really stop it. The main response has been "radical, lower labor costs, more profit!" but it's causing massive social problems.
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Aug 16, 2015 09:58
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ToxicSlurpee posted:That's kind of the problem with progress in general, especially computer science (yes I'm a CS major why do you ask?). Humans are actually kind of lazy and always want an easier or cheaper way to do something so somebody, somewhere is always looking for it. If you look at human history it's been a long history of getting more efficient in the way we do things. So Dredd is a prophecy instead of a satire of law enforcement and police states?
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Aug 16, 2015 10:04
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Forceholy posted:So Dredd is a prophecy instead of a satire of law enforcement and police states? We live in a cyberpunk future, it's just stupider than even we imagined in the 90s. Back on the thread subject, maybe there'll be some successful push back and reestablishment of workers' rights, maybe we'll get to that Star Trek future, but it's going to take things like this.
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Aug 16, 2015 10:08
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foobardog posted:For every group of programmers doing something cool like self driving cars, there's 15 making sure that a prick in accounting can reduce human beings into numbers to better justify running their life after their jobs get outsourced.
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Aug 16, 2015 10:13
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Forceholy posted:So Dredd is a prophecy instead of a satire of law enforcement and police states? Generally speaking dystopian fiction is more or less "this very well might happen." A common assumption (pretty sure this even dates back to Marx) is that there will come a point where automation will completely devalue labor. We're seeing even now that that the supply of labor is higher than current demand. The wealthy of course give no shits if there are hungry and homeless people; they just want more money. But the hungry and homeless may reach a point of critical mass where social unrest progresses to outright rebellion. Of course the wealthy, instead of actually sharing the wealth or letting communism happen, will crack down.
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Aug 16, 2015 12:40
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ChairMaster posted:Wait do people not like self-checkouts? I can self checkout in the same amount of time that it takes one of the clerks to do it except people don't take very large amounts of groceries into them so there's never a line up and I don't have to look at or talk to another person, which is a huge bonus for me. My grocery store solved the problem of large amounts of products by designating 3/4 of the lines as "express" lines (no more than 15 items) and as a result there have pretty much always been empty lines. ToxicSlurpee posted:Generally speaking dystopian fiction is more or less "this very well might happen." A common assumption (pretty sure this even dates back to Marx) is that there will come a point where automation will completely devalue labor.
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Aug 16, 2015 14:50
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FRINGE posted:Its faster to hand a human my items and a $20 bill than fight with some juvenile computer telling me I set my stuff down in the "bagging area" wrong and need to wait for "assistance". I have literally never had a problem with the scales or the bagging area things while using a self checkout. Maybe your grocery store uses lovely busted scales or maybe I'm a technological genius of some sort. And I may be a hosed up weirdo, but are you guys really telling me that you want to talk to that lady running the checkout line and have her make a bad joke about nothing and ask you to donate a dollar to some dumb thing or other rather than just having a nice robot process your groceries for you?
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Aug 16, 2015 15:56
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computer parts posted:I've yet to find a person who likes working retail. Well look at telecom for instance where improved/changing technology is wrecking what had been one of the last bastions of unionism, and structurally there just really isn't much that can be done because those jobs don't exist anymore, they haven't even moved to a country that we can tariff. Everblight posted:If it were cheaper to hire robots, they would have done so by now. It is clearly not, and won't be for some time. McDonald's is literally testing self service kiosks as we speak.
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Aug 16, 2015 16:05
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ChairMaster posted:I have literally never had a problem with the scales or the bagging area things while using a self checkout. Maybe your grocery store uses lovely busted scales or maybe I'm a technological genius of some sort. My nice robot asks for a donation too and doesn't process manager's coupons
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Aug 16, 2015 16:10
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Kim Jong Il posted:McDonald's is literally testing self service kiosks as we speak. And while there will likely be success in this area at some point, various fast food groups have been testing self service implementations for a while now.
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Aug 16, 2015 16:29
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Kim Jong Il posted:Well look at telecom for instance where improved/changing technology is wrecking what had been one of the last bastions of unionism, and structurally there just really isn't much that can be done because those jobs don't exist anymore, they haven't even moved to a country that we can tariff. They've had self-service kiosks in Europe for a while now. It solves the language barrier problem, and because McDonalds locations in Europe get more foot traffic on average than they do in the states. You still need people to make the food. You still need cashiers. You still need managers. For now. Automation is great. The faster humans lose their jobs to robots, the better. It's a relatively painless form of accelerationism.
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Aug 16, 2015 16:43
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Kim Jong Il posted:McDonald's is literally testing self service kiosks as we speak. Obviously we should lower the minimum wage.
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Aug 16, 2015 16:48
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computer parts posted:Obviously we should lower the minimum wage. Which is not an argument I was making. Instead, I was saying the push to $15 is going to accelerate these trends and in the long run labor is completely and utterly hosed.
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Aug 16, 2015 17:54
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Kim Jong Il posted:Which is not an argument I was making. Instead, I was saying the push to $15 is going to accelerate these trends and in the long run labor is completely and utterly hosed. Yep expending a bunch of political capital for minimum wage is incredibly stupid- automation is going to destroy any benefits and in fact make the situation a lot worse for the lowest skilled workers. It's not the 80's anymore people, automation has progressed to the point where we need to be looking to other things, like mincome, if we want a more equal society. I really don't think people realize how advanced some of the stuff coming out is. Just look at amazon's factory automation or driverless cars, or nearly completely automated fast food restaurants and etc etc etc. Stop wasting time fighting for higher wages for jobs that aren't going to exist in 10 years! And like KJI points out, these businesses already see the writing on the wall and are dumping more and more money to speed this research up. The funny thing is the people who fight for the 15 dollar min!!!! or whatever nonsense they are pushing now are the same people who hate on large corporations yet large corporations are the only things that will be able to handle such an increase. computer parts posted:Obviously we should lower the minimum wage. Well no, you just shouldn't be a moron that can't see 10 seconds into the future. There are much better systems than minimum wage laws, which have always been the shittiest was to accomplish its stated goals.
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Aug 16, 2015 18:58
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Typical Pubbie posted:They've had self-service kiosks in Europe for a while now. It solves the language barrier problem, and because McDonalds locations in Europe get more foot traffic on average than they do in the states. You still need people to make the food. You still need cashiers. You still need managers. For now. Well yea, it's great for skilled workers, sucks for the unskilled workers - higher minimum wage means jack poo poo when you can't get a job because they are all automated now. archangelwar posted:And while there will likely be success in this area at some point, various fast food groups have been testing self service implementations for a while now. "At some point" is now. Again, people are stuck in the past on this issue and really don't understand what is right around the corner.
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Aug 16, 2015 19:00
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TROIKA CURES GREEK posted:Well no, you just shouldn't be a moron that can't see 10 seconds into the future. There are much better systems than minimum wage laws, which have always been the shittiest was to accomplish its stated goals. Obviously we should abolish the minimum wage.
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Aug 16, 2015 19:11
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What if there was some kind of system where everyone makes almost the exact same amount of money? Hell, I'm just an ideas guy
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Aug 16, 2015 19:17
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Equine Don posted:What if there was some kind of system where everyone makes almost the exact same amount of money? Hell, I'm just an ideas guy If God wasnt rewarding Hard Work then something something Romney/Hilary 2016.
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Aug 16, 2015 20:14
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ChairMaster posted:I have literally never had a problem with the scales or the bagging area things while using a self checkout. Maybe your grocery store uses lovely busted scales or maybe I'm a technological genius of some sort. Yes because they're a person in the community and it's cool and good to shoot the poo poo with people sometimes. I suppose it helps I usually go to the store around the same time/day so I see most of the same people but as long as the grocery store I go to is unionized and doesn't keep trying to push self-checkout I will continue to *gasp* talk to people and not have to fiddle with the produce scale and the machine yelling at me for buying a 6 pack. I'll use the self-checkout if the express lanes are busy (which they tend to be considering they're next to the tobacco products) for a few small items but when I'm doing my normal shopping? gently caress that.
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Aug 16, 2015 20:30
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The grocery store I go to, the human staffed checkout lines are slow as gently caress compared to scanning your own stuff, the do it yourself lines go quickly unless you get some dope in front of you too stupid to use it.
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Aug 16, 2015 20:45
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Talking to people is a good thing you know, face to face contact is nice. As to people saying IT WILL JUST BE MORE AUTOMATION, good bring it on lets get this poo poo going, I want my loving robots.
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Aug 16, 2015 22:19
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Funny, I guess someone should tell Costco and In-N-Out and their high wages about all these robots they could be using instead. That, and I know I can't go anywhere without tripping over an automat.
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Aug 16, 2015 23:19
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computer parts posted:Obviously we should abolish the minimum wage. We should go with Milton Friedman's proposal to abolish minimum wage and all welfare programs and replace them with a GMI because it's literally better than anything that could realistically become law, yes. Well, such a proposal itself would never become law, but you get the idea.
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Aug 17, 2015 00:43
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do some of you people seriously enjoy talking to dumbass bored cashiers?
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Aug 17, 2015 03:17
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Blue Raider posted:do some of you people seriously enjoy talking to dumbass bored cashiers? If you become a regular at a place that is competent enough to keep staff, they will get to know you and will interact with you just like real people will. Are you saying you are unable to get people to respond to you in a meaningful manner?
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Aug 17, 2015 04:54
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TROIKA CURES GREEK posted:Well yea, it's great for skilled workers, sucks for the unskilled workers - higher minimum wage means jack poo poo when you can't get a job because they are all automated now. What makes you think skilled workers are better protected from automated redundancy than unskilled? Most unskilled workers perform tasks that require adaptability, fine motor skills, and the ability to see their environment. Automating those attributes in a way that is cost-effective is a serious engineering challenge. Compare that to workers with highly specialized skills used to complete a narrow, easily defined set of tasks. Potentially much easier to automate. Sorry for the automation derail. I'll stop.
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Aug 17, 2015 05:09
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Blue Raider posted:do some of you people seriously enjoy talking to dumbass bored cashiers?
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Aug 17, 2015 06:27
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Blue Raider posted:do some of you people seriously enjoy talking to dumbass bored cashiers? As some who has been that dumbass bored cashier: I am legit grateful for people who have a sense of humor and a story to share. It goes both ways, dude. E: That said if it's Black Friday you need to move the gently caress on, gorilla
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Aug 17, 2015 06:43
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Typical Pubbie posted:What makes you think skilled workers are better protected from automated redundancy than unskilled? Most unskilled workers perform tasks that require adaptability, fine motor skills, and the ability to see their environment. Automating those attributes in a way that is cost-effective is a serious engineering challenge. You should read this when you have the time. It explains what jobs are most likely at risk.
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Aug 17, 2015 13:59
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The incentive is a cost benefit analysis. That's why all of those junior legal positions are being offshored or automated. Automation may not have made sense at $8 an hour but it does at $15.
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Aug 18, 2015 01:00
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Kim Jong Il posted:The incentive is a cost benefit analysis. That's why all of those junior legal positions are being offshored or automated. Automation may not have made sense at $8 an hour but it does at $15. You're assuming the primary driver of automation is rising costs of the status quo rather than falling costs of the alternative.
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Aug 18, 2015 04:07
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slaves will starve without slavery as we must replace their hardy persons with the 'gin
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Aug 18, 2015 04:16
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computer parts posted:You're assuming the primary driver of automation is rising costs of the status quo rather than falling costs of the alternative. Well I work in automation (as an analyst/developer), so I'm just going by the real world conversations I'm involved in every day.
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Aug 19, 2015 01:41
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computer parts posted:You're assuming the primary driver of automation is rising costs of the status quo rather than falling costs of the alternative. It's not the primary driver of innovation, sure. But if the current tech costs $x to run effectively, and outsider factors force the cost of labor up to $x+y, businesses will switch from paying a human to making it automated when they can.
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Aug 19, 2015 02:05
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ChipNDip posted:It's not the primary driver of innovation, sure. But if the current tech costs $x to run effectively, and outsider factors force the cost of labor up to $x+y, businesses will switch from paying a human to making it automated when they can. No, not always. There are hidden costs beyond "It costs $X to run a machine and $Y to pay workers".
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Aug 19, 2015 04:36
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I'm so happy my job swore off automation. When we have something to pass on to other shifts we swore off email and stuck to memograph paper to write down all our comunications in triplicate, when we have to send it to more than 3 people we temd to write it multiple times because the 4th copy doesnt show too well. But it was all to make sure our steographers didnt have to transfer to a seperate skill set.
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Aug 19, 2015 20:12
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