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computer parts posted:Oh, I thought that was the Penny Arcade one. Mike Krahulik posted:"One time in high school, someone broke into my locker and stole my stuff, so I had to wear gym clothes for the rest of the day," he says, wincing at the memory. "I developed humor as a defense mechanism. Now I drive a loving Mercedes." And that was in 2007. Bunch of cunts.
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Aug 19, 2015 14:55
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MinionOfCthulhu posted:And that was in 2007. Bunch of cunts. It could be a 240D.
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Aug 19, 2015 14:57
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Jack2142 posted:Yeah I will admit alot of people on the left spectrum tend to forget that most companies aren't coldly calculating sociopaths. They are more like a spergy autist irrationally making terrible decisions because they don't understand how they could go wrong. I'd say more short-sighted dumb sociopaths.
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Aug 19, 2015 15:23
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MinionOfCthulhu posted:And that was in 2007. Bunch of cunts. There's nothing special about driving a Mercedes: 
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Aug 19, 2015 15:32
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computer parts posted:I'm interested in demographics of workers, do you have any links about this? Particularly the Bay Area if possible. The Bay Area is not the whole world. Less than 10% of developers work in the Bay Area. Throw in Seattle, and we're still talking less than 15% using the most restrictive occupation code of Software developers, applications and systems software . Plenty of people we would consider to be working in the field fall into other job classifications according to the government. http://www.bls.gov/cps/occupation_age.htm For the country as a whole, Software developers, applications and systems software , Computer programmers , Computer systems analysts , and Computer occupations, all other, the jobs categories which pretty much cover most people we would call "developers" or "rockstars" or whatever term the industry decides it wants to use today all have a median age in the early 40s, with the median age of the workforce as a whole at 42.4. Additionally, around 35-40% are between 45 and 65. That's roughly the same as the workforce as a whole, which is pretty good considering that hardly anybody is going to be in that field before age 22-23. Remember also that some older workers will have transitioned into management.
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Aug 19, 2015 15:36
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ChipNDip posted:The Bay Area is not the whole world. Less than 10% of developers work in the Bay Area. Throw in Seattle, and we're still talking less than 15% using the most restrictive occupation code of Software developers, applications and systems software . Plenty of people we would consider to be working in the field fall into other job classifications according to the government. And what about the Bay Area specifically?
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Aug 19, 2015 15:44
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Zarin posted:I'm actually very curious how many people "want" to work 60+ hours per week, and how many are simply "talking the talk" while participating in an unfettered arms race that began with "to the next promotion" and has now reached its inevitable conclusion of "to not get fired and replaced by someone that arms races harder than me". I want to work 60 hours a week, but only if I'm in a management or executive role. I've done 60 hours as manager and developer and doing it as a developer straight up isn't sustainable. With agile/scrum/whatever peering into every moment of their lives, developers don't have the luxury to choose when they have easy weeks and when they decide to have unsustainable, intense bursts of work the way managers and execs do. Managers don't take this into consideration when writing job descriptions though because hey, I work 60 hours a week and it's not that bad! Why are they complaining with all the great free food we provide them?
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Aug 19, 2015 16:02
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I was working over 60 hours while I was in a biochemistry lab and now I work a solid 40 as a programmer. I was willing to work that extra 20 in the lab even though I was getting paid much less because I believed in what I was doing. I've been a lefty, pro-union guy for my whole adult life but you guys have been really insulting. I am very fortunate that what I love to do is something society values, please don't hold that against me. As for the crazy high compensation packages, the financial sector seems to work in the same way. Individual programmers/financiers can generate a lot of value for a company and giving them huge payouts raises the prestige of the company because they can say to their clients that they hire "the very best." The average wage for companies you've never heard of is a lot less. TheOtherContraGuy fucked around with this message at 16:19 on Aug 19, 2015 |
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Aug 19, 2015 16:13
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nachos posted:I want to work 60 hours a week, but only if I'm in a management or executive role. I've done 60 hours as manager and developer and doing it as a developer straight up isn't sustainable. With agile/scrum/whatever peering into every moment of their lives, developers don't have the luxury to choose when they have easy weeks and when they decide to have unsustainable, intense bursts of work the way managers and execs do. Managers don't take this into consideration when writing job descriptions though because hey, I work 60 hours a week and it's not that bad! Why are they complaining with all the great free food we provide them? Yeah. I've had to explain to managers that coding is a creative profession; you need downtime and you only get, at best, about 6 hours of prime coding time per day and it's diminishing returns after that. The problem with managing software developers is that non-developers think coding is magic. To be an effective manager of programmers, you need to have worked as a programmer.
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Aug 19, 2015 16:36
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TheOtherContraGuy posted:I was working over 60 hours while I was in a biochemistry lab and now I work a solid 40 as a programmer. I was willing to work that extra 20 in the lab even though I was getting paid much less because I believed in what I was doing. I've been a lefty, pro-union guy for my whole adult life but you guys have been really insulting. I am very fortunate that what I love to do is something society values, please don't hold that against me. Agreed.
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Aug 19, 2015 16:38
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Can we please move the loving union discussion to another thread, it's been beaten to death numerous times and isn't nearly as interesting as discussing the NYT article.
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Aug 19, 2015 16:51
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Typo posted:most software developers aren't libertarians though, majority of the ones who are political and are in 20-30 range would be Obama supporters Younger generations tend to lean progressive however the demographics show that those fiscally conservative are by a significant margin are in STEM fields.
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Aug 19, 2015 17:00
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Tab8715 posted:Younger generations tend to lean progressive however the demographics show that those fiscally conservative are by a significant margin are in STEM fields. This article seems to suggest otherwise. http://www.businessinsider.com/charts-show-the-political-bias-of-each-profession-2014-11
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Aug 19, 2015 17:05
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Radbot posted:Can we please move the loving union discussion to another thread, it's been beaten to death numerous times and isn't nearly as interesting as discussing the NYT article.
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Aug 19, 2015 17:16
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TheOtherContraGuy posted:This article seems to suggest otherwise. http://www.businessinsider.com/charts-show-the-political-bias-of-each-profession-2014-11 Almost as though political affiliation is not one dimensional.
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Aug 19, 2015 17:16
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computer parts posted:Almost as though political affiliation is not one dimensional. I was just about to respond with this and I didn't say liberal/conservative but "fiscally conservative". You'll find that those in STEM are okay with gay marriage, legalized weed, sex outside marriage but flips when you have things like social security, socialized medicine, etc
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Aug 19, 2015 18:36
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I think people ran a bit too far with LIBERTARIANISMS and associating it with computer people, because the owners are that way, but their employees are too educated (sorry truth hurts) and valuable to see the world the way a coal mining executive would (a dumbo's vision of the world).
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Aug 19, 2015 18:39
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twodot posted:Having unions seems highly relevant to changing anything described in the article you think is interesting. Yes, but unionization is such a large enough topic that it should have its own thread. I'm more interested in how the hell work became a virtue and why anyone ever would think it's acceptable, normal or a require to consistently put in 40h/w on the job.
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Aug 19, 2015 18:42
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Tab8715 posted:Yes, but unionization is such a large enough topic that it should have its own thread. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic
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Aug 19, 2015 18:44
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It's at least an independently forming idea since that doesn't explain the similar phenomena in Asia.
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Aug 19, 2015 18:47
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Tab8715 posted:Yes, but unionization is such a large enough topic that it should have its own thread.
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Aug 19, 2015 18:49
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twodot posted:If a thread presents a problem, but disallows discussing the solution, then what is the point of the thread? Are we just here to say that Steve, the low level manager at Amazon, who keeps calling Joe, the employee, at 1am is a jerk? No, we're here to explore how the behavior exposed in that article is endemic to many American workplaces to varying degrees. You know, discussion. "Solving" things isn't ever going to happen here, sorry.
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Aug 19, 2015 19:05
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Radbot posted:No, we're here to explore how the behavior exposed in that article is endemic to many American workplaces to varying degrees. You know, discussion. "Solving" things isn't ever going to happen here, sorry.
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Aug 19, 2015 19:23
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Tab8715 posted:Yes, but unionization is such a large enough topic that it should have its own thread. If you expand your vision of what "Work" is, I think many people will agree that work is something that they're glad to have the privilege of doing. Performing in an Orchestra is work. Writing a poem is work. Optimizing an algorithm is work. What we should be worrying about is freeing people from drudgery so that they can pursue meaningful work that makes them feel like they're accomplishing things and making the world around them a better place.
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Aug 19, 2015 19:26
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Tab8715 posted:I was just about to respond with this and I didn't say liberal/conservative but "fiscally conservative". You'll find that those in STEM are okay with gay marriage, legalized weed, sex outside marriage but flips when you have things like social security, socialized medicine, etc I think that's true of the general American population as well though socially liberal and fiscally conservative is a pretty popular political position all around since the 1990s, it's not something restricted to STEM fields
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Aug 19, 2015 19:31
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Typo posted:I think that's true of the general American population as well though It's popular among certain classes of white people.
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Aug 19, 2015 19:32
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Tab8715 posted:I was just about to respond with this and I didn't say liberal/conservative but "fiscally conservative". You'll find that those in STEM are okay with gay marriage, legalized weed, sex outside marriage but flips when you have things like social security, socialized medicine, etc * Yeah there's more libertarians than average too, but I don't think there are that many of them, they're just really loud. And I think they tend to be more pragmatic, too; techies with libertarian leanings in SF, for example, are probably still cool with funding public transportation.
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Aug 19, 2015 19:38
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Cicero posted:I thought we were talking about the tech industry, not all of STEM. My impression is that even on non-social issues techies seem to be somewhat liberal on average*. Granted, the places I've worked in as a software developer are NYC, Seattle, and the bay area, so that undoubtedly colors my perception. Boy howdy are they loud about it In a nutshell, Mr. Srinivasan, a computer scientist and co-founder of the genomics company Counsyl, told a group of young entrepreneurs that the United States had become “the Microsoft of nations”: outdated and obsolescent. When technology companies calcify, Mr. Srinivasan said, you don’t reform them. You exit and launch your own. Why not do so with America? In practice, this vision calls for building actual communities that would be beyond the reach of the state that Silicon Valley’s libertarians despise. But in the near term, Mr. Srinivasan noted, there are piecemeal ways to opt out of the society — like spending unregulated digital currency, sleeping in unregulated hotels and manufacturing unregulated guns. What Mr. Srinivasan called “Silicon Valley’s ultimate exit,” he explained, “basically means build an opt-in society, ultimately outside the United States, run by technology.” The speech won roars from the audience at Y Combinator, a leading start-up incubator. It earned hearty praise online as well — even as it worried others.
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Aug 19, 2015 19:41
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That guy should have been called a nerd and given a life risking wedgie.
Nonsense fucked around with this message at 20:18 on Aug 19, 2015 |
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Aug 19, 2015 19:44
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Tab8715 posted:Yes, but unionization is such a large enough topic that it should have its own thread. You are not a human being. You are a resourse to be harvested. Only the wealthy and connected, the stockholders, are actually people. The nature of capitalism is to extract resources as efficiently as possible for short term gain with no regard for sustainability. Unless the government passes laws to prevent it, we will fish an area until the fishery collapses, even tho that cuts your throat in the long run. Company's will cut down all the trees in an area then move on unless the gov forces reclaimation. Whether it be fish, timber, oil, ore, or people, a corporation will squeeze all they can. The fact that working 60+ hours a week lowers productivity and burns people out doesn't matter because the company can't see beyond the quarterly earnings report. Your happiness, even your long term value to the company, has got nothing to to with this week's project. Again, if you aren't a shareholder you are not a person. You are a meat cog they haven't figured out how to automate yet.
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Aug 19, 2015 20:17
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The majority of startups fail so that guy's vision amounts to rich people getting to restart their little Galt's Gulch indefinitely while the lower class gets to "pivot" into new jobs and circumstances at a whim. Surely a country people will want to live in!
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Aug 19, 2015 20:19
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Being able to change jobs whenever I want owns actually
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Aug 19, 2015 20:24
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-Troika- posted:Part of the shortage of tech workers are dumb hiring requirements, as well. No one wants to run some company's entire everything for 25-30 grand a year. This is the real problem. I see so many positions for a Python/Perl/Ruby/Angular/Node/milkshake/fuckstick/pogobooooom/drupal/grindr expert with a starting salary of 40k. Fuuuuuuuck that poo poo, I'm happy making 60k and just being a javascript monkey.
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Aug 19, 2015 20:43
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computer parts posted:And what about the Bay Area specifically? -Troika- posted:Part of the shortage of tech workers are dumb hiring requirements, as well. No one wants to run some company's entire everything for 25-30 grand a year. drat near every job "shortage" you hear about comes down to a lack of pay, in wages and/or covering the cost of actually training people how to do the job. If your compensation package is good enough, you will find people to do the job. If there isn't anyone who can do it, then covering their training is part of the compensation. Tab8715 posted:Younger generations tend to lean progressive however the demographics show that those fiscally conservative are by a significant margin are in STEM fields. There's a big difference in the people and the career paths in the pure sciences and mathematics versus engineers and computer scientists. Stop saying "STEM" when you mean programmers or engineers. Anecdotally, the "T" part is socially very liberally, and center to center-left economically. All of the libertarians I've met have been business majors. ChipNDip fucked around with this message at 21:10 on Aug 19, 2015 |
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Aug 19, 2015 21:08
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ChipNDip posted:Who cares? They only make up a fraction of the industry. They just get all the attention because mobile apps are sexy and interesting. Silicon valley is a small part of the overall tech industry, it's just that media loves to suck fuckenburg's dick so it gets disproportionate amount of attention. basically everybody loves a "get rich quick" story and the media will give people that besides covering the story of 40 year old who work on software printing banking statements is pretty boring
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Aug 19, 2015 21:15
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ChipNDip posted:Who cares? They only make up a fraction of the industry. They just get all the attention because mobile apps are sexy and interesting. 10% is a fairly significant portion of the industry.
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Aug 19, 2015 22:31
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Working 60 hours a week is retarded. The trick is to be ultra productive, and fit 60 hours of work into 30. I will never understand the drive to work more than absolutely necessary. Plan, Automate, Relax is my guiding philosophy.
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Aug 19, 2015 23:34
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computer parts posted:10% is a fairly significant portion of the industry. On top of that, the big names in the industry (Facebook, Google, Apple) are all located there, and they are the trend-setters for a lot of stuff, not just industry practices but also many technologies that other software companies adopt. So yeah, what happens in SV is kind of a big deal. That's why it gets so much coverage.
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Aug 20, 2015 00:50
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computer parts posted:10% is a fairly significant portion of the industry. Okay, I can't find any hard data, but I'm a numbers guy (not a coder though), so we'll do some educated guessing. Warning, sperg incoming: There are about 104,000 software developers and computer programmers working in the Bay Area. http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_41884.htm http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_41940.htm Let's assume that 80% of these workers are men, and 80% have bachelor's degrees. There are about 600,000 men aged 22-35, 260,000 with a bachelor's degree+ in the Bay Area (South Bay, East Bay, SF and the Peninsula). Let's pretend that 75% of those software developers are 22-35 with the demographics mentioned. That would give a median age about 28-29, similar to what Google, Facebook, and LinkedIn have claimed. 80% * 80% * 75% * 104,000 gives us 50,000, give or take. According to these assumptions, 19% of 22-35 year old men with bachelor's degrees are employed as software developers. In the absolute most extreme case, this might be possible. I'd say it's unlikely, though. All of this doesn't even include database guys, web developers, or anyone classified as an "analyst", let alone all the other jobs in the world. It also includes the East Bay and Marin as well SF proper, which has lots of other things going for it economy-wise. Remember that Silicon Valley has a lot of hardware engineers as well. Nationwide, about 4-5% of 22-35 year old, bachelor degree having men are employed as Software developers or programmers. Let's say in the Bay that 14-15% of these young men are That would mean that no more than 55-60% of developers are in the 22-35 year old range, with a median age around 33. Knock it down to 11-12%, and now suddenly only 45% of developers could be in that 22-35 age range, and the median age must be more like 36 or 37. Overall, I think 34 is a reasonable median age for Software developers in the San Francisco Bay Area. This is not a dissertation, but it is highly unlikely that a majority of workers are men in their 20s. Most are at an age where they have a family, or are thinking about starting one. Still pretty young, but remember that's just the coders. There's still management, who are going to naturally skew older, database administrators, and other "tech" positions that the old farts could be hiding in. Another important caveat: people in their 40s now would have been the 25-35 year old rock stars during the last dotcom bubble. A lot of them probably left software, or at least Silicon Valley, all together, which is going to lead to some selection bias. Certainly more than a few of them are going to be spooked about doing it all over again, ignoring the question of whether or not they want to put in insane hours. As for startups and hot companies like Google and Facebook, plenty of them have came out and said that they have median employee ages in the late 20s. But for the industry as a whole, it's unrealistic to say that most workers are in their 20s. tl;dr Don't believe the hype. Typo's anecdote applies even to the Bay. Typo posted:idk dude, I don't understand why every time an IT industry thread comes up people think everyone who program is some spergie. Most people who are in the software industry are 30+/married, have families and life outside of work and are there mostly to collect a paycheque.
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Aug 20, 2015 02:11
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TheOtherContraGuy posted:I was working over 60 hours while I was in a biochemistry lab and now I work a solid 40 as a programmer. I was willing to work that extra 20 in the lab even though I was getting paid much less because I believed in what I was doing. I've been a lefty, pro-union guy for my whole adult life but you guys have been really insulting. I am very fortunate that what I love to do is something society values, please don't hold that against me. I hope you don't mean my post that was insulting. I think your experience is the way it *should* be: that there are protections in place for people who choose to work a "standard" amount, with the option to work more if you are truly passionate about the thing you are working on. The only time working that much is tragic is when most people are only doing it because "everyone else is doing it and I'll be cut if I don't because I will look like a slacker". Of course, I could go on a tangent about how if we were able to structure things a bit better, it would be much easier for people to find, identify, and land a career in the field they are passionate about. We'd probably end up with a better society in the long run that way, but I don't think most people can get there when the options are "work" or "starve". That's probably for another thread, though. 
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