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Much has been said about how male rape victims are ignored and disbelieved by the media, police and society at large, especially ones raped by women. However, to me, it seems to be the opposite; male rape victims are held up as being the real victims and used in a way to dismiss the experiences of women, who are raped and abused much more than men. It seems to me that patriarchal society is desperate to find men who have been 'raped' by women in order to show those uppity females that they are just as bad. Indeed, I have argued with people who insist on giving male rape victims special treatment, then being told that false rape accusations are a significant thing done by 'scorned women'! One can't hope but notice there is a significant overlap between misogyny and people who insist on male rape victims receiving special support. Of course, a cursory google shows that this is complete bullshit. It is women who are the victims and men who are the perpetrators, the vast majority of the time. This is why you get people (and i say people deliberately, since men and women both do it) arguing that male rape victims need more attention, support and so on. It's like having two houses, one on fire and one with the gas hob left on, and spraying the second one with a hose! In an age where women's shelters are cut, and women still are not taken seriously by the police when they report being raped, it's downright insulting to switch the focus on men and call it a 'human' issue. Now I'm not saying that men can't be raped or whatever. What I am trying to do is encourage people to primarily think and act for female victims, since they are the ones with the house on fire. Why do male rape victims deserve special attention? Since most men are raped by other men, wouldn't it be just better to teach men about consent specifically, to make sure they understand what rape is? Why not attempt to reform masculinity so it is less about power and domination? Even in cases where men rape men, it's pretty clear that the victim in feminized, referred to as a 'bitch' and so on. It's clear that rape is 'women's problem' (in the sense that it largely happens to them, not that they are responsible for it). So, do male rape victims need special attention? Do we really need rape clinics for men?
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Aug 19, 2015 18:11
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If there are men being raped, then there should be some kind of services for them.
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Aug 19, 2015 18:13
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all victims of sexual abuse deserve equal support, the issue here is that male victims are used as examples of the creeping gynocray not caring or whatever
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Aug 19, 2015 18:23
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Pantsuit posted:
Given that the experience of men being raped is going to be qualitatively different than that of women being raped, yes. Also it is probably a good idea to not have male victims hanging around the waiting room of a rape clinic for women.
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Aug 19, 2015 18:40
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Oh wow, this is going to be the shortest discussion in d&d ever. 1. They deserve the same attention; cost/benefits considerations make special clinics for men only very unlikely, just like there is no rape clinic on the ISS 2. You should stop reading post from deranged losers on reddit and hang around normal people more often. This seems to be the main problem here, from what I can see
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Aug 19, 2015 18:49
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The issue of sexual assault is deeply unfortunate in that basically all victims-- male victims, female victims, and even those who have been falsely accused-- are reduced to tools, rhetorical devices to push whatever agenda suits. It is next to impossible to discuss sexual assault in American political discourse without also bringing in a number of larger issues that are tangled up with it. Male victims of sexual assault tend to face this problem, because Male Sexual Assault Victim is a rhetorical tool to support Those Wimmins Should Stop Feministing. It's possible to look past the rhetorical device and see the person, but it still makes discussion difficult. (Female victims face it too, when things like Abortion For Raped Women starts getting talked about.)
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Aug 19, 2015 19:13
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Male rape is surging as speaking out against it online has been silenced. This thread is invaluable in getting the message out there that this must not be tolerated. Where are men's "allies" in this?
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Aug 19, 2015 19:15
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Nonsense posted:Male rape is surging as speaking out against it online has been silenced. this is going to happen across the country and most likely it's just millenial males being more comfortable reporting sexual abuse, which is a victory for feminism
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Aug 19, 2015 19:16
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Nonsense posted:Male rape is surging as speaking out against it online has been silenced. This thread is invaluable in getting the message out there that this must not be tolerated. Where are men's "allies" in this? You have to be pretty delirious to think that talking about male rape has been "silenced" on the internet.
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Aug 19, 2015 19:49
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Doesn't the vast majority of sexual assault against men occur in prison or is that just a myth? Anyway, yes it's obvious that every victim of sexual assault deserves justice and support, but in the current (internet) debate about gender equality, complaining male rape erasure is a technique employed by MRAs to obfuscate the issues surrounding sexual assault and minimize the impact and prevalence of sexual assault that women suffer in society.
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Aug 19, 2015 20:02
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Nonsense posted:Male rape is surging as speaking out against it online has been silenced. This thread is invaluable in getting the message out there that this must not be tolerated. Where are men's "allies" in this? "Thank god Reddit banned men from speaking out against rape, otherwise I'd never get away with this!" - A Rapist, I guess? Beyond this hypothetical being a total fever dream, what keeps male rape victims from coming forward is the idea that they've been somehow robbed of their manhood. It's one of the more disturbing examples of how toxic the concept of masculinity has become.
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Aug 19, 2015 20:31
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Lumberjack Bonanza posted:"Thank god Reddit banned men from speaking out against rape, otherwise I'd never get away with this!" - A Rapist, I guess? This is especially pernicious because the majority of male victims of rape were raped by other men.
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Aug 19, 2015 20:42
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Also of note is how common place it is for other men to flat out joke about male rape to begin with. Including male rape in which a woman was the rapist. But we can't let facts get in the way of the MRA brigade.
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Aug 19, 2015 20:55
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ToastyPotato posted:Also of note is how common place it is for other men to flat out joke about male rape to begin with. Including male rape in which a woman was the rapist. One of the issues is there is an assumption that women can't rape men. It's viewed as literally impossible because it's often assumed that every straight man just wants to have as much sex as possible and will literally loving anything willing. Even if it's a case of "I was extremely drunk, passing out really, and this woman climbed in to bed and had sex with me" a common argument is "hey you should just be happy you got laid, dude!" Well...no. "Incapable of giving consent" isn't negotiable. If somebody is too drunk to give consent and you have sex with them it's rape. The genders don't matter and he should not just "be happy he got laid."
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Aug 20, 2015 05:04
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Tezzor posted:You have to be pretty delirious to think that talking about male rape has been "silenced" on the internet. No, this isn't true at all to any thinking person.
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Aug 20, 2015 05:41
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ToxicSlurpee posted:One of the issues is there is an assumption that women can't rape men. It's viewed as literally impossible because it's often assumed that every straight man just wants to have as much sex as possible and will literally loving anything willing. Even if it's a case of "I was extremely drunk, passing out really, and this woman climbed in to bed and had sex with me" a common argument is "hey you should just be happy you got laid, dude!" Well...no. "Incapable of giving consent" isn't negotiable. If somebody is too drunk to give consent and you have sex with them it's rape. The genders don't matter and he should not just "be happy he got laid." This is correct. But again, it is mostly men I see perpetuating this sort of thing, not women. So it is kind of revealing how male rape is almost always framed in away that insinuates that it is women who are in some way victimizing male victims of rape when the same male behavior that can make life hell for a female victim is what is making life miserable for male ones! It always comes back to "where is the support and out cry for male victims?!" But they don't realize that the answer is "I don't know where it is, it would seem that many men aren't very interested in talking about male rape victims for some reason and even more men find male rape funny."
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Aug 20, 2015 05:46
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When has anyone in this thread framed anything like that, except as an attempt to dismiss the issue entirely?
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Aug 20, 2015 06:28
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My wife works at a rape trauma center and they serve plenty of male survivors. While male survivors of abuse by women make up a very small percentage of their total service population (most men are abused by other men), men abused by women get the same services as anyone else. It gets a little more complicated, because there is a subset of men who sexualize the idea of being raped by a woman and try to use rape trauma lines as the world's creepiest free phone sex. What that, functionally, means is that the most experienced people handle calls from male callers to make sure that those who need it get the best service and that perverts can be filtered out. Edit: Just to be explicitly clear, this is actually a form of male privilege since we're more likely to get more experienced counselors just by virtue of being men, despite being much less in need of this particular service. At the hospital, there isn't a need for that kind of filtering because, well, it's the hospital. Again, at hospitals, there tends to be a special focus on men. Cops are generally pretty terrible. With women, there is a lot of victim blaming. With men, there is a presumption that men are the aggressors. It is the job of the rape trauma counselor to act as an intermediary between the survivor and the cops. The survivor needs to balance their emotional needs with the legal/righteous needs of making the perp take responsibility. While there are exceptions to any generalization, demographically, rape trauma counselors are universally feminist. And they are the best allies that male survivors have. Social structures that are traditionally aligned with the patriarchy, such as the medical establishment and the police, are substantially more hostile to male survivors. It's almost like the challenges faced by male survivors can be best addressed by smashing the patriarchy. Huh. Funny how that works. Shbobdb fucked around with this message at 06:46 on Aug 20, 2015 |
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Aug 20, 2015 06:29
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But if I smash the patriarchy a woman might be my boss and actually compel me to do something! What about my manhood then? I can't be bossed around by a woman. 
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Aug 20, 2015 06:41
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Pantsuit posted:Even in cases where men rape men, it's pretty clear that the victim in feminized, referred to as a 'bitch' and so on. I'd say this is not an exceptionally helpful or even necessarily entirely true observation, since it doesn't really apply to male-on-male domestic sexual abuse, which makes up a pretty substantial portion of male-on-male rape. We can deal with such cases when they happen without necessarily trying to shove them back into the "men rape women" schema. But I'm probably making the mistake of taking this thread seriously or indeed engaging in any kind of discussion of rape on the Debate And Discussion forums of a comedy site, so
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Aug 20, 2015 06:52
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ToxicSlurpee posted:"I was extremely drunk, passing out really, and this woman climbed in to bed and had sex with me" Sorry, I don't believe that this actually happens.
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Aug 20, 2015 16:14
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Rape is bad no matter who does it.Pantsuit posted:Sorry, I don't believe that this actually happens. It's a lot easier to rape someone unconscious, especially when it's someone physically stronger then the rapist.
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Aug 20, 2015 16:33
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ToastyPotato posted:Also of note is how common place it is for other men to flat out joke about male rape to begin with. Including male rape in which a woman was the rapist. Knowing MRA types, telling one this would probably just cause him to go "Actually, the only people I've heard make fun of male rape were almost universally feminists." Making poo poo up to bolster their own beliefs is what they're good at.
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Aug 20, 2015 16:48
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Pantsuit posted:Sorry, I don't believe that this actually happens. I'm pretty sure that happens because the guy just wanted to chill, and that woman took advantage.
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Aug 20, 2015 16:51
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Rape of males is quite common, but the truth of it doesn't line up with whatever MRAs and "seduction" rapists are trying to prove.
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Aug 20, 2015 16:56
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Lots of men are raped in the "took advantage of a drunk person" way. If you ask plenty of reasonably moderate to attractive men that were or are promiscuous to any real degree, plenty have accounts of women they wouldn't otherwise want purposely getting them wasted so they could hook up with them. I can only think of a couple in my immediate friend group in which this has NOT happened. The responses are different on average, though, because society does not generally constantly tell men to tie their self worth into how choosy they are in having sex with someone. So, for many, the effect is "ew, that was a mistake" or a joke among friends as opposed to trauma (although some may have this trauma and hide it to come off as more "masculine" in society). The difference in effect has to do with a lot of underlying gender imbalance in society, which DEFINITELY needs to be focused on, especially since it causes so much damage among both sexes.
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Aug 20, 2015 16:56
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Quorum posted:I'd say this is not an exceptionally helpful or even necessarily entirely true observation, since it doesn't really apply to male-on-male domestic sexual abuse, which makes up a pretty substantial portion of male-on-male rape. I'm confused how that doesn't apply to male-on-male rape. Could you elaborate, maybe link me to a study? I'm willing to believe you but this kind of flies in the face of everything I've heard and experienced.
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Aug 20, 2015 16:58
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Pantsuit posted:Sorry, I don't believe that this actually happens. If getting a woman so drunk she can't consent to sex is rape (and it is, without question), then doing the same thing to a man is also rape, whether you are a man or a woman. Gender does not affect one's lack of ability to consent when intoxicated. Nor does the ability of a man to get an erection count as any form of consent (another dangerous myth that makes boys and men who have been sexually abused or raped think maybe it wasn't actually abuse/rape). It's my opinion that rape is bad no matter what gender is doing the raping, and what gender is being raped, and we should help victims and punish rapists. Also: Shbobdb posted:It's almost like the challenges faced by male survivors can be best addressed by smashing the patriarchy. It's also worth noting that we shouldn't, and don't really have to, take resources away from helping female victims of rape in order to also help male victims of rape.
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Aug 20, 2015 16:58
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Bizarro Watt posted:Knowing MRA types, telling one this would probably just cause him to go "Actually, the only people I've heard make fun of male rape were almost universally feminists." Making poo poo up to bolster their own beliefs is what they're good at. True. That's when you show them the Front Page of the NY Post where they made a pun about implied eventual prison rape of Jared Fogle. Seriously, I would love someone with time and resources to compile a list prison rape, and male rape jokes in popular media. Even better if it could be compared to the number of female rape jokes. Because I am pretty sure that the rape or otherwise sexual assault of men, including the statutory rape of boys, is a VERY common place joke in our society, and it isn't Oprah and Ellen that are telling it.
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Aug 20, 2015 17:55
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Lumberjack Bonanza posted:I'm confused how that doesn't apply to male-on-male rape. Could you elaborate, maybe link me to a study? I'm willing to believe you but this kind of flies in the face of everything I've heard and experienced. It's not a study, precisely, but here's a pretty good publication from Ohio State University that goes into some of the stuff that happens with male-on-male sexual assault. Warning, it's a PDF. It talks a little bit about the sex-and-gender implications of having been sexually assaulted. Certainly, some victims reported feeling "feminized": quote:Some men will feel part of their masculinity has been stripped away, that they have been feminized, or are somehow less manly because they have been sexually violated. Confounding the matter even more is that this publication doesn't really take into account domestic sexual abuse, because to my knowledge there aren't very many studies about it yet. Speaking purely anecdotally, these don't tend to involve "feminization" as much as more violent or one-off sexual assault cases do. It's more about power balances and emotional manipulation there, sadly. So overall, I'd say feelings of feminization, of being robbed of one's masculinity, occur more often in cases of violent sexual assault, and more often among men who identify as straight. Gay men have a whole other set of traumas that are somewhat more common (facing questions about one's sexuality, the implication that gay men are running the risk of sexual assault inherently), in addition to the usual set of traumas that seems more or less standard (feeling that sex has been devalued and thus becoming very promiscuous, or else avoiding sex entirely, feeling "dirty," etc). Quorum fucked around with this message at 04:26 on Aug 21, 2015 |
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Aug 21, 2015 04:23
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Pantsuit posted:Sorry, I don't believe that this actually happens. Go on. 
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Aug 21, 2015 04:26
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Pantsuit posted:Sorry, I don't believe that this actually happens. This is actually a serious challenge male victims face after having been assaulted by being forced to penetrate! Common sense suggests that "well if you didn't want to have sex you wouldn't have been hard." Turns out, though, that erections can be a physiological response to fear or stress, and indeed to the presence of a sexual scenario, even if participation is not desired! The 2011 CDC survey which incidentally provided the somewhat controversial one-in-four statistic for female lifetime rape incidence reported a 6.4% lifetime incidence of men being forced to penetrate. Quorum fucked around with this message at 04:36 on Aug 21, 2015 |
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Aug 21, 2015 04:31
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So this actually happened to me about 5 years back. I was at one of those adult vacation camp places that encourages a lot of hooking up, and sharing a cabin with a man and a woman who were both friends. The woman had a crush on me and I knew it but was not attracted to her. The second night we were there I was drinking and dancing pretty late and probably stumbled back to the cabin at 3 AM or so. I was close to puking and my head was spinning and the whole 9 yards. I heard the woman come into the cabin and sensed her climbing into bed next to me. She started kissing me and grabbing me and I played possum hoping she would think I was asleep and give up but she didn't. Finally I started pushing her away. Several times I pushed her away, more and more forcefully each time, until I pushed her hard enough that she fell out of the bed completely (the next day she would go to the hospital to confirm a fractured foot). But she continued to persist. I'm not sure how to explain it, but eventually I got the idea that if I just gave her what she wanted she would leave me alone. So I started returning her kisses, we took our clothes off and we had sex. (No protection, I remember a sense of 'wow, this is REALLY stupid'.) Eventually I just decided it had gone on long enough, told her I was tired and wanted to go to sleep. She refused to get out of my bed, so I got out of the bed myself and got into her bed. Oddly enough, that seemed to get the message through, and she remained in my bed for the rest of the night while I slept in her bed. I would say that this was not at all traumatic to me, I was mostly just annoyed at her (still am), but looking back I still think it was a rape. Also, I want to say that even if they're legally the same, I think there's a big difference between MF and FM rape when it involves this kind of "erosion of resolve". Like this experience would have been a lot different for me if she outweighed me by 80 pounds instead of the reverse.
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Aug 21, 2015 08:10
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Shbobdb posted:It gets a little more complicated, because there is a subset of men who sexualize the idea of being raped by a woman and try to use rape trauma lines as the world's creepiest free phone sex  Why. Why are people so awful. Keep your fetish away from people with actual trauma.
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Aug 21, 2015 08:30
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Blackjack2000 posted:So this actually happened to me about 5 years back. I was at one of those adult vacation camp places that encourages a lot of hooking up, and sharing a cabin with a man and a woman who were both friends. The woman had a crush on me and I knew it but was not attracted to her. Thanks for talking about what happened to you - I can guess that its a difficult topic for you. Remember, you aren't to blame for what happened. You were hobbled by intoxication, social convention, and this was exploited by someone that should have known better. That doesn't make you weak, or complicit in some kind of wickedness. The blame and fault rests on another. Blackjack2000 posted:Also, I want to say that even if they're legally the same, I think there's a big difference between MF and FM rape when it involves this kind of "erosion of resolve". Like this experience would have been a lot different for me if she outweighed me by 80 pounds instead of the reverse. There isn't, actually, but I understand why you would feel that way about this situation.
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Aug 31, 2015 15:09
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LeJackal posted:
I have a friend who doesn't understand why new hires are frightened of him. He just talks straight and tells it like it is ... as he has ways done. It's baffling to him that he can bring people to tears with a few remarks these days or that people actively seek to avoid his attention. I keep trying to explain to him how relative power changes the way things are interpreted such that being one of four devs back in the startup days is completely loving different than being the highest ranked architect/mythical founder/BFF of the CEO 15 years later on a department of 49 devs. When you can get someone fired and/or relegated to dead end poo poo work at will then being dismissively critical scares the pants off them. The problem isn't them, they are acting rationally. He needs to moderate his expression to his actual level of dissatisfaction rather than over-do it such that everything is either brilliant or blithering idiocy. Esp in front of the CEO. Relative power abso-fuckinglutely impacts the level of emotional response to a person's actions. When I have power over you I can hurt you so much more than a random person can. To say that it doesn't matter who has a significant physical advantage over the other is like saying that what happened to him is just like him waking up in secure restraints such that she could do whatever she wanted and he would be physically unable to stop her. Helpless as his requests to be released are ignored. That his loss of personal agency/damage from that would be exactly the same as from this. Bullshit. By that logic a beggar following you for three blocks pouring on the guilt till you give them money is the same as a mugger.
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Sep 2, 2015 01:15
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McAlister posted:
Thats a long winded way of saying that though you are aware of potential power disparity opportunity outside of a purely physical sense, you promptly ignore them in the context of a sexual interaction. It's okay though, that kind of situation-specific blindness due to deep-seated misogyny is pretty commonplace. P.S Nice victim blaming bro.
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Sep 2, 2015 03:23
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Pantsuit posted:Sorry, I don't believe that this actually happens. I wish it happened to me. 
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Sep 2, 2015 05:11
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Quorum posted:Turns out, though, that erections can be a physiological response to fear or stress, and indeed to the presence of a sexual scenario, even if participation is not desired! A sexual scenario I get, but fear or stress not so much. That doesn't make sense from a evolutionary biology perspective. Or from just being a human male for that matter. When poo poo gets dangerous or sketchy and adrenaline spikes, sex is the absolute last priority. I've been in a few near death high stress situations (because I'm a loving idiot) and have been amazed at how... extremely non-engorged things are on their resolution. That blood is needed elsewhere.
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Sep 2, 2015 05:37
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McAlister posted:I have a friend who doesn't understand why new hires are frightened of him. He just talks straight and tells it like it is ... as he has ways done. It's baffling to him that he can bring people to tears with a few remarks these days or that people actively seek to avoid his attention. you what
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