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tumblr.txt posted:Call it what you will, but I honestly believe it could be sold to first-world countries. We could save a given number Men, Women and Children, or 10 times that many Women and Children. There is no point discussing solutions that are politically impossible. Apparently, the table's open for incredibly reprehensible ones, though.
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Sep 5, 2015 02:33
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Australia is literally keeping people in offshore camps and making it illegal to whistleblow on rape etc. The horrific solutions have already proven possible to implement. e: How do I get one of those sweet gang tags?
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Sep 5, 2015 02:37
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What kind of world do some of these guys live in where forced sterilization and eugenics is more marketable than providing refugees with safety?
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Sep 5, 2015 02:39
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Sep 5, 2015 02:43
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tumblr.txt posted:The horrific solutions have already proven possible to implement. Never underestimate people's ability to compartmentalize and look the other way. Everyone must be made to confront the 30% bad of ourselves and our society, or they will just persist in the delusion of 100% good.
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Sep 5, 2015 02:43
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Volkerball posted:The US had a NFZ in Iraq for a decade prior to Iraq and all it did was prevent a second al-Anfal campaign, but feel free to try and explain to a Syrian who's family was killed by a barrel bomb that we can't stop the regime from dropping them indiscriminately because that's a gateway bomb. Separate from other US policies at the time the Iraq NFZ was arguably a Good Thing, but the US didn't really have a group it wanted to replace Saddam. In the case of Syria, the US clearly supported the rebels, and it's pretty hard to believe a NFZ over Syria wouldn't have developed along the lines of military intervention in Libya. Also at the time the US was enforcing a NFZ over Iraq it was also enforcing a starvation blockade. So yeah, its worth considering that even if a small portion of US policy was good, overall its intervention had a pretty horrific effect on Iraq, even before the 2003 invasion.
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Sep 5, 2015 02:44
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Chomskyan posted:Separate from other US policies at the time the Iraq NFZ was arguably a Good Thing, but the US didn't really have a group it wanted to replace Saddam. In the case of Syria, the US clearly supported the rebels, and it's pretty hard to believe a NFZ over Syria wouldn't have developed along the lines of military intervention in Libya. Also at the time the US was enforcing a NFZ over Iraq it was also enforcing a starvation blockade. So yeah, its worth considering that even if a small portion of US policy was good, overall its intervention had a pretty horrific effect on Iraq, even before the 2003 invasion. No it's not, because this is a really dumb way to try and act like ignoring Syria was a good idea. It was predicted by many people right from the get go that there was no ignoring it, and obviously we're seeing that prediction come to fruition now.
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Sep 5, 2015 02:57
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I've seen horrors, horrors that you've seen. But you have no right to call me a murderer. You have a right to kill me. You have a right to do that, but you have no right to judge me. It's impossible for words to describe what is necessary to those who do not know what horror means. Horror! Horror has a face, and you must make a friend of horror. Horror and moral terror are your friends. If they are not, then they are enemies to be feared. They are truly enemies.
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Sep 5, 2015 03:07
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Volkerball posted:No it's not, because this is a really dumb way to try and act like ignoring Syria was a good idea. It was predicted by many people right from the get go that there was no ignoring it, and obviously we're seeing that prediction come to fruition now. Your argument depends on the US being a good faith actor that would implement a Syrian air campaign in a way that mitigates civilian casualties, rather than one that maximizes the opposition's chances of winning the civil war. That assumption is at best laughably naive. Perhaps if the US didn't have such a long history of cynical foreign policy (almost always under the guise of humanitarianism), it would be easier to accept the idea of a US administered no fly zone. Also the US didn't ignore Syria. It pumped millions of dollars worth of weapons and equipment into the Syrian opposition, essentially fueling the conflict, and also contributing to the rise of ISIS. In case you forgot.
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Sep 5, 2015 03:39
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Chomskyan posted:Your argument depends on the US being a good faith actor that would implement a Syrian air campaign in a way that mitigates civilian casualties, rather than one that maximizes the opposition's chances of winning the civil war. That assumption is at best laughably naive. Perhaps if the US didn't have such a long history of cynical foreign policy (almost always under the guise of humanitarianism), it would be easier to accept the idea of a US administered no fly zone. We're coming from fundamentally different perspectives on how the US government and democracy works, specifically in regards to foreign policy. I've got no interest in following this debate to its natural conclusion of secret elites bullshit, so we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one, Chomskyan.
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Sep 5, 2015 03:48
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Chomskyan posted:Also the US didn't ignore Syria. It pumped millions of dollars worth of weapons and equipment into the Syrian opposition, essentially fueling the conflict, and also contributing to the rise of ISIS. In case you forgot. The US was never directly providing weapons in Syria, those were being bought by the Saudis and maybe the CIA helped smuggle them.
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Sep 5, 2015 03:49
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McDowell posted:The US was never directly providing weapons in Syria, those were being bought by the Saudis and maybe the CIA helped smuggle them. https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...889d_story.html
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Sep 5, 2015 04:07
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Ligur posted:According to Merit Wager from the Swedish Migration Agency Wager has never worked for nor been employed by the Swedish migration agency. Says so (literally!) first loving thing on her blog, even. I don't know why you would think this. Cake Smashing Boob fucked around with this message at 04:36 on Sep 5, 2015 |
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Sep 5, 2015 04:31
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i feel like a youtube clip from that xfiles flashback episode where mulder meets the lone gunmen for the first time and everyone's comically incredulous about the idea that the us government isn't doubleplusgood would be apt
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Sep 5, 2015 04:46
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Ernie Muppari posted:i feel like a youtube clip from that xfiles flashback episode where mulder meets the lone gunmen for the first time and everyone's comically incredulous about the idea that the us government isn't doubleplusgood would be apt Yeah even as I posted that I had a feeling it would be corrected. Really just great work by the intelligence agencies. Making the world a safer place.
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Sep 5, 2015 04:49
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but at least we can rest easy secure in the knowlege that isis is surely a grassroots popular movement whose rise to prominence was clearly inevitable because of  arabic culture and barrel bombs and not the quite visible hand of western imperialism
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Sep 5, 2015 04:57
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CommieGIR posted:50% of the refugees are children. Are you afraid the kids might try to institute Sharia law? Y'know, after fleeing an oppressive religious government in the middle of sectarian violence? 83% are adults Counter argument would be that when Malaysia et al started towing boats out to sea Recently they significantly reduced the flow
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Sep 5, 2015 06:14
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Ernie Muppari posted:but at least we can rest easy secure in the knowlege that isis is surely a grassroots popular movement whose rise to prominence was clearly inevitable because of baghdadi is a cia puppet
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Sep 5, 2015 06:40
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Another problem of this entire cluster gently caress is the political drain left in Syria. If all of these people are moderates and people less inclined to support Al-Nusra or Isis or whatever fundamentalist regime pops out of the ashes of Syria change is going to come very slowly and its going to be a worse version if not already of Afghanistan in the 80's and 90's.
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Sep 5, 2015 06:47
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Cake Smashing Boob posted:Wager has never worked for nor been employed by the Swedish migration agency. Says so (literally!) first loving thing on her blog, even. True, she's been quoted as being such because of her close relations to the agency it seems. But wasn't she the refugee ombudsman in the past, i.e. she has been working with the same system for a bunch and close to the migrationsverket?
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Sep 5, 2015 08:19
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Zodium posted:baghdadi is a cia puppet you're telling me that the central intelligence agency, the same agency that gave us bin laden and pinochet...
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Sep 5, 2015 08:39
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Ernie Muppari posted:you're telling me that the central intelligence agency, the same agency that gave us bin laden and pinochet...  meet me at the central station in Brussels in exactly one hour. we'll find the secret immigration policy plans in the underground EU complex and save the world before bob page becomes an immortal ai god. it's just you and me buddy, just ernie and zodium against the imperial machine, ernie and zodium forever and ever for a hundred episodes ernie and zodium forever
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Sep 5, 2015 08:57
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what immigration policy?
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Sep 5, 2015 09:15
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Didn't notice there was a thread for this so I posted the following in the EE thread, guess it fits better here3peat posted:With all this refugee hysteria sweeping europe these days, here's an opinion poll on the subject from romania:
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Sep 5, 2015 09:26
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Well, that's an optimistic outcome, if that poll is reliable. I'd love to see one done with those questions in Australia.
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Sep 5, 2015 09:32
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Ligur posted:True, she's been quoted as being such because of her close relations to the agency it seems. Certainly not in a governmental/official capacity. She was an "ombudsman" only insofar as she titled herself as such as part a private association/initiative courtesy of Swedish right wing think-tank Timbro - which is to say not at all. She's a pundit, not an expert.
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Sep 5, 2015 09:35
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Cake Smashing Boob posted:Certainly not in a governmental/official capacity. She was an "ombudsman" only insofar as she titled herself as such as part a private association/initiative courtesy of Swedish right wing think-tank Timbro - which is to say not at all. She's a pundit, not an expert. Do you believe she makes up all the things she writes about, because she is malicious and evil or something like that?
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Sep 5, 2015 09:51
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I'm just gonna make a suggestion here. It might sound radical, but here goes. Move all the migrants to Montana. All of them. We're not using it, and it has enough area and resources to support millions of people.
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Sep 5, 2015 10:01
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JT Jag posted:I'm just gonna make a suggestion here. It might sound radical, but here goes. The US could easily absorb the bulk of these migrants or more year after year, without it being a blip on our radar. We have plenty of land, plenty of resources, and a culture that a) is much more receptive to assimilation, and b) has the concept of "being American" bound up in embracing said culture - even simply embracing aspects of it - rather than a certain ethnicity (not that being of western European descent isn't an advantage, but still). The problem is that it's much more difficult to get an overcrowded glorified raft across the Atlantic than it is to get it across the Mediterranean, so the only way refugees are getting to the USA from the Middle East/Africa is if there's a program in place to ship them here. And fat loving chance of that happening with a Republican controlled congress that's already up in arms over immigration from Mexico.  So for the time being at least, refugees are stuck trying to settle down in a collection of nationalist states that each have a homogeneous cultural & ethnic identity. Call me a pessimist, but between the Hungarian PM's comments and the poll posted above (Refugees should be helped, so long as they don't move to my town to spread their filthy Islamic terrorism!) convince me that the EU is going to continue to struggle with this for a very long time. It's not that easy to reconcile nationalism with accepting a flood of new inhabitants who don't share your ethnic or cultural background.
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Sep 5, 2015 10:15
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my dad posted:As loathe as I am to say something like this, a friend of mine spent two months in a primarily immigrant Muslim town in Sweden, and her experiences were a horrifying cocktail of misogyny (up to an including rape and death threats), from men and women alike (including a little girl screaming at her that she's a vile person for watching cartoons instead of having children). How do you prevent the creation of insular, toxic communities like that one without loving over desperate people fleeing a horrible place? From a couple of pages back but what cartoons specifically was she watching? This is important.
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Sep 5, 2015 10:50
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Ligur posted:Do you believe she makes up all the things she writes about, because she is malicious and evil or something like that? I care not so much about the why and wherefores of her blog, nor do I think her lack of expertise automatically invalidates her opinions. What I do take issue with, however, is you misrepresenting her as some sort of authority on the subject, when clearly she is not. The rest is beside the point.
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Sep 5, 2015 10:50
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None of this is surprising. Most people are selfish most of the time, especially towards perceived outgroups. There's bound to be significant resistance to using one's resources to help others to no benefit for (or even to the detriment of) the party spending the resources. When it comes to societally created morals versus evolutionary anti-outgroup instincts, the latter tends to win.
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Sep 5, 2015 11:03
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Cake Smashing Boob posted:I care not so much about the why and wherefores of her blog, nor do I think her lack of expertise automatically invalidates her opinions. What I do take issue with, however, is you misrepresenting her as some sort of authority on the subject, when clearly she is not. The rest is beside the point. Yeah if most of the stuff she writes isn't true at all or made up, she probably isn't an authority on the subject. If what she writes is true or on point, then she is "an authority" on the subject. The rest is quite beside the point, yeah. For example, I know a poo poo ton of people who majored in something, like, uhh, philosophy but are pretty awesome in the IT field. I have no formal education or degree in sports, but having done stuff for 20+ years I'm pretty sure I know what I talk about when I write a blog about it. I don't need to be a professor of sports in the state sports department for that, if you get what I mean.
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Sep 5, 2015 11:08
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Ligur posted:Yeah if most of the stuff she writes isn't true at all or made up, she probably isn't an authority on the subject. If what she writes is true or on point, then she is "an authority" on the subject. The rest is quite beside the point, yeah. The hallmark of a credible authority is really about metacognition: they know what they know, what they don't know, and what must be known in order to resolve uncertainty and move forward. Degrees and experience both frequently fail to confer this quality (e.g., Meehl's studies on clinical versus actuarial judgment), which is essentially integrity. Feynman was speaking about scientists at the time, but I think his is a perfectly good general definition of an intellectual expert or authority. Feynman posted:But there is one feature I notice that is generally missing in cargo cult science. That is the idea that we all hope you have learned in studying science in school--we never say explicitly what this is, but just hope that you catch on by all the examples of scientific investigation. It is interesting, therefore, to bring it out now and speak of it explicitly. It's a kind of scientific integrity, a principle of scientific thought that corresponds to a kind of utter honesty--a kind of leaning over backwards. For example, if you're doing an experiment, you should report everything that you think might make it invalid--not only what you think is right about it: other causes that could possibly explain your results; and things you thought of that you've eliminated by some other experiment, and how they worked--to make sure the other fellow can tell they have been eliminated.
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Sep 5, 2015 11:38
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   Passport, lifejacket, lemons: what Syrian refugees pack for the crossing to Europe
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Sep 5, 2015 13:18
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SaltyJesus posted:From a couple of pages back but what cartoons specifically was she watching? This is important. Haven't a clue. Not anime, at least that much I can be certain. We were talking about the refugee crisis, and when I asked her why she hates Muslims so much (it never came up before, but became obvious during the conversation), she told me what happened to her in Sweden, and I went  She's not a person I have a reason to distrust about this.
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Sep 5, 2015 18:24
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I was gonna make a stupid joke like if it's mlp/anime death threats are SaltyJesus fucked around with this message at 19:18 on Sep 5, 2015 |
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Sep 5, 2015 19:11
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Yes totally a little girl did that.
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Sep 5, 2015 19:13
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Also Sweden will elect Nazi's as an entire government soon.
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Sep 5, 2015 19:14
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Nonsense posted:Yes totally a little girl did that. I've known 8 year olds who said far worse things because they repeated lovely things said by their parents. Hell, I said some horrible poo poo as a kid because of the stuff I heard on TV (Milošević era propaganda. I'm sure you can imagine what I said). Nonsense posted:Also Sweden will elect Nazi's as an entire government soon. No. But I do have a reason to assume something is wrong with the way Sweden is handling immigrants/refugees. I know a Muslim dude who fled from Mostar to Sweden during the Yugoslav Wars and visits to my hometown from time to time to visit his sister (who married a guy from here), and the things I've heard from him make his experiences in Sweden sound pretty great (and he's a great guy, too), and I used to base my assumptions about the situation there on the things he told me. Now, however, I'm worried about fuckups in refugee policies resulting in the poo poo my friend had to suffer. OwlFancier posted:Integration. Bombard people everyday with dissenting viewpoints. Expose them constantly to ideas other than the ones they already have. Require them to mix with other people in order to get the things they want. Show them why they should want the things that require integration to acquire. There's a problem I think of when I hear about integration through social pressure. A (Serbian) dude and his wife, who were friends of my grandparents, moved to Sweden. My family used to be really drat poor, and those guys used to bring stuff from Sweden, usually a bunch of clothes and toys that they'd give me. As time went on, they... Started being wary of us. Like, at one point, I took some weird brooch that was on their table because I was curious about it, and the woman slapped me on the hand while shouting "Drop it, you little thief!" Soon after they stopped coming. We never stole anything from them (or anyone else), and the impression I got is that my grandparents were friends with them, and didn't demand anything, but felt gratitude for the help provided. I just really don't like the idea of new refugees showing up only to discover that their own people consider them a pack of thieves or something like that. Integrating migrants and refugees in a way that forces them to be "the good ones" is horrible, too.
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Sep 5, 2015 19:51
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