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   The media has this weird habit of using the term "migrant" instead of "refugee" which is what the overwhelming majority of these folks are. http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/09/03/437206335/hungarys-premier-defends-handling-of-migrant-crisis quote:'Hungarian Public Opinion Is In Shock' Regarding Migrant Crisis http://news.yahoo.com/eastern-germany-hotspot-attacks-against-refugees-064300104.html quote:IEastern Germany a hotspot for attacks against refugees https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/09/03/image-of-drowned-syrian-toddler-aylan-kurdi-jolts-world-leaders/ quote:Death of drowned Syrian toddler Aylan Kurdi jolts world leaders It is truly appalling to me how some people are acting towards our fellow human beings. These are our neighbors, they are mothers, and fathers, and familes. The last comment I quoted really gets to me. What endangers christian identity is failing to act christian towards our neighbors in need. Every single person on this planet is one bad day away from being a refugee, a migrant, an inmate, a homeless person. The volcano at yellow stone could go off, there could be a pandemic, whatever. It appalls me that we have failed to recognize or fellow person as people. Will it hurt the economy? Maybe, but we need to do it because of the kind of people we are meant to be. The kind of world we want to be a part of. Also the United States and Russia should certainly take some responsibility here as they are both fueling the conflict with money and equipment to advance appallingly selfish interests. They are not migrants and even if they were, nothing justifies this treatment.
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Sep 4, 2015 01:08
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Speaking of Christianity, Matthew tells us that the Lord himself was a refugee. Also Hebrews 13:1-2 says “…show hospitality to strangers, for by doing that some have entertained angels…” and there are numerous instances of good people, prophets even, inspired by God who have gone through being a refugee. That boy on that beach is a child of God. And while he is in a better place, it is on our conscience, our responsibility to bear some of the burden of those less fortunate than us. If he wants Europe to stay Christian, he should act in a Christ like way.
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Sep 4, 2015 01:48
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Britain has loosened its policy on Syrian refugees after the photo of the 3-year-old was everywhere.quote:Downing Street officials acknowledged that Cameron had been moved to act by the scale of the gathering crisis as well as the change in the public mood brought to a head by the publication of heartbreaking pictures showing a Syrian boy drowned and washed up on a beach in Turkey.
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Sep 4, 2015 02:25
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That photo is horrifying. I didn't realize what I was looking at. I wish I hadn't seen it.
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Sep 4, 2015 02:35
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Spooky Forum Ghost posted:Britain has loosened its policy on Syrian refugees after the photo of the 3-year-old was everywhere. Translation: Cameron doesn't reckon he can get away with his stance from a couple of days ago any more, which was, broadly, "gently caress the refugees".
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Sep 4, 2015 02:37
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Letting people die, starve and rot in countries that are wartorn or fall victim to a disaster isn't cool at all, but I think it's worth acknowledging that it's not as easy as 'just letting refugees in'. By virtue of existing, everyone takes a toll on the land, the infrastructure, and the resources a given land has. Finding the room and resources for almost a million more people who are unfamiliar with your culture, your rules, your expectations -- this is hard to do, and expensive to do. If the last half a decade is any indicator, people seem to be less concerned about the economic impact and much more concerned about the cultural impact. That is obviously a huge topic, but I really want an honest discussion without a purely humanitarian viewpoint, because while we should help our fellow man, it simply isn't that simple and saying, 'Well, it IS that simple' is pretty dishonest.
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Sep 4, 2015 03:00
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Does anyone have a demographic breakdown of the migrants? I noticed in pictures that it seems to be primarily single 20-30 year old men, but of course thats a biased sample. Recently news coverage seems to be covering children, but how much of the refugee population is actually 3 year old kids?
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Sep 4, 2015 03:29
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It kind of is that simple, The UK alone had a net migration of about 330 thousand last year. People immigrate all the time, we could find space for a million people in Europe easily if we were so inclined.
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Sep 4, 2015 03:31
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OwlFancier posted:It kind of is that simple, The UK alone had a net migration of about 330 thousand last year. People immigrate all the time, we could find space for a million people in Europe easily if we were so inclined. Yes, the logistics of moving literally hundreds of thousands of people across the world is 'that simple'. Pack it up boys, we've solved it here!
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Sep 4, 2015 03:35
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We already move hundreds of thousands of people across the world all the time, how do you think migrants normally get where they're going? Besides, part of the reason there is a crisis is because the people have moved themselves, but are still being denied settlement in many countries. People wouldn't be bothered if they were all on the other side of the Mediterranean. If you want examples, a flotilla of approximately 800, largely civilian craft, managed to move about 300 thousand soldiers of the british expeditionary force from Dunkirk in France, back to Britain, with very little organisation, while being bombed by the luftwaffe, in eight days. Obviously the channel is smaller than the Mediterranean but you cannot argue that it is a logistical problem. The resources exist to move people, the inclination to do so does not. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 03:51 on Sep 4, 2015 |
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Sep 4, 2015 03:37
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Canine Blues Arooo posted:That is obviously a huge topic, but I really want an honest discussion without a purely humanitarian viewpoint, because while we should help our fellow man, it simply isn't that simple and saying, 'Well, it IS that simple' is pretty dishonest. What viewpoints other than the humanitarian should we be using to look at this problem?
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Sep 4, 2015 03:39
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Canine Blues Arooo posted:Letting people die, starve and rot in countries that are wartorn or fall victim to a disaster isn't cool at all, but I think it's worth acknowledging that it's not as easy as 'just letting refugees in'. By virtue of existing, everyone takes a toll on the land, the infrastructure, and the resources a given land has. Finding the room and resources for almost a million more people who are unfamiliar with your culture, your rules, your expectations -- this is hard to do, and expensive to do. If the last half a decade is any indicator, people seem to be less concerned about the economic impact and much more concerned about the cultural impact. The EU countries are wealthy and large enough that they could literally take in the entire populations of Iraq and Syria combined and feed them all relatively easily. Remember literally 25% of the people living in the borders of Lebanon as of 2015 are refugees. The EU, even excluding all former eastern bloc countries plus Greece and Portugal, still have 380 million people and could take all 50 million Iraqis and Syrians without reaching half that figure icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 03:55 on Sep 4, 2015 |
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Sep 4, 2015 03:43
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Sharkie posted:What viewpoints other than the humanitarian should we be using to look at this problem? How are you going to bring the war in Syria/Iraq to an immediate end? A lasting peace must be brought to the Middle East so reconstruction and resettlement can begin. The US, Russia, and China must unite to achieve this.
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Sep 4, 2015 03:45
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McDowell posted:How are you going to bring the war in Syria/Iraq to an immediate end?
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Sep 4, 2015 03:49
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Sharkie posted:What viewpoints other than the humanitarian should we be using to look at this problem? icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 04:35 on Sep 4, 2015 |
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Sep 4, 2015 03:51
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We need to bring some of these refugees to the United States. All the countries of the word have a part to play in this. Furthermore Refugees should not be seeking to go to specific countries. If they truly are refugees they need to be spread out evenly amongst all the countries of europe and the americas who are willing to help them. They will also need schools to integrate them into their new societies. But I think that these countries can all provide them to some extent.
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Sep 4, 2015 04:06
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Canine Blues Arooo posted:Yes, the logistics of moving literally hundreds of thousands of people across the world is 'that simple'. Pack it up boys, we've solved it here! That's not what you said though. Your post was talking about once people were in a new country. On that topic, why can't they just be given jobs and made productive tax paying citizens? Mandy Thompson posted:
This really shits me. I've seen news reports that use migrant, refugee and asylum seeker interchangeably. SMILLENNIALSMILLEN fucked around with this message at 04:08 on Sep 4, 2015 |
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Sep 4, 2015 04:06
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Sharkie posted:What viewpoints other than the humanitarian should we be using to look at this problem? For the same reason that even societies that have real health care systems literally every procedure for every situation, it's not realistic to just blindly accept X refugees, where X is whatever number happen to show up. There are economic and arguably social consequences to having a large group of people show up. Pretending that they don't exist or we don't have to worry about them is foolishness. It'd be beneficial to actually figure these numbers out. 'How many people can a given area support? How should we distribute refugees?' These are important questions, and certainly someone is asking them, but saying stuff like, 'It's that easy' undermines the complexity of immigration, of finding places for these people to live and work, of figuring out how these people will integrate into a brand new society. My beef with the 'easy' mentality isn't that we shouldn't find a way for refugees, it's that it directs a conversation toward blind anger at a government's immigration policy, or at a societies uneasiness at housing a large number of refugees. I think this can be an important and good conversation, but if it immediately devolves into 'Germans are assholes because they closed their borders', then instead of a discussion, it becomes a circlejerk. quote:On that topic, why can't they just be given jobs and made productive tax paying citizens? I don't know if this is even a serious question. If you can answer this question, you will have solved the economy. Congratulations. Canine Blues Arooo fucked around with this message at 05:00 on Sep 4, 2015 |
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Sep 4, 2015 04:14
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Canine Blues Arooo posted:Letting people die, starve and rot in countries that are wartorn or fall victim to a disaster isn't cool at all, but I think it's worth acknowledging that it's not as easy as 'just letting refugees in'. By virtue of existing, everyone takes a toll on the land, the infrastructure, and the resources a given land has. Finding the room and resources for almost a million more people who are unfamiliar with your culture, your rules, your expectations -- this is hard to do, and expensive to do. If the last half a decade is any indicator, people seem to be less concerned about the economic impact and much more concerned about the cultural impact. I really don't think cultural impact is a valid objection. Here in the US we have greatly benefited from the diversity immigrants have brought and extremists raising a fuss that the population is becoming more Hispanic are rightly dismissed as racist, when they are dismissed, sadly they aren't dismissed often enough. Cultures evolve and change all the time and the best way to defend a culture is to embody its best parts. Leave the nationalism in the dustbin of history. If the west truly embodies freedom, then let people be free. Trappings of Western culture are ubiquitous around the world from Kentucky Fried Chicken's in East Asia to movies with international audiences.
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Sep 4, 2015 04:19
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Canine Blues Arooo posted:Yes, the logistics of moving literally hundreds of thousands of people across the world is 'that simple'. Pack it up boys, we've solved it here! Its going to be painful and inconvenient but far more painful is the pain these refugees experience. I would rather live in a world where we make sacrifices for our fellow human beings. Nations are an illusion, we are one people, one race, all children of the divine.
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Sep 4, 2015 04:24
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Canine Blues Arooo posted:this is hard to do, and expensive to do I wish I could find any more to your argument than this.
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Sep 4, 2015 05:12
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SedanChair posted:I wish I could find any more to your argument than this. That is the entire argument. If you can acknowledge that much, then we are on the same page.
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Sep 4, 2015 05:18
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Showing that migrants who pay dangerous careless smugglers get a good first world life in Europe will cause a lot more people to attempt the journey, leading to more deaths.OwlFancier posted:It kind of is that simple, The UK alone had a net migration of about 330 thousand last year. People immigrate all the time, we could find space for a million people in Europe easily if we were so inclined. According to wikipedia you are high by a factor of two. And this is talking about an addition to that figure. An addition in mainly unskilled, war ravaged people with zero support structure and probably some deep traumatic issues. icantfindaname posted:The EU countries are wealthy and large enough that they could literally take in the entire populations of Iraq and Syria combined and feed them all relatively easily. Remember literally 25% of the people living in the borders of Lebanon as of 2015 are refugees. The EU, even excluding all former eastern bloc countries plus Greece and Portugal, still have 380 million people and could take all 50 million Iraqis and Syrians without reaching half that figure I would like to see some numbers to back this up. Europe already has a significant homeless population, why are these refugees so easy to house and integrate into society? Also turning Europe into Lebanon doesn't seem very realistic considering their government is extremely overtaxed and is in danger of collapsing itself.
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Sep 4, 2015 05:34
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PerpetualSelf posted:We need to bring some of these refugees to the United States. All the countries of the word have a part to play in this. Furthermore Refugees should not be seeking to go to specific countries. If they truly are refugees they need to be spread out evenly amongst all the countries of europe and the americas who are willing to help them. You should look at this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_net_migration_rate The United States, despite what it seems like in the news, does not have a closed border, and lets in more than double the migrants per capita than Germany or France.
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Sep 4, 2015 05:38
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Stereotype posted:I would like to see some numbers to back this up. Europe already has a significant homeless population, why are these refugees so easy to house and integrate into society? Also turning Europe into Lebanon doesn't seem very realistic considering their government is extremely overtaxed and is in danger of collapsing itself. You're seriously comparing refugees to homeless folks? I work with a lot of homeless people, and the long term homeless aren't homeless because no one can find anywhere to house them. They tend to have substance abuse issues and mental health problems that make them fundamentally incapable of participating in modern society the way 99% of us can. Even when tons of resources are thrown at them they often just can't manage. It's really tragic. There are also a lot of short term homeless people who have had their lives hosed up somehow but don't have crippling mental illness, and these folks excel at getting their lives back on track with a little assistance. These are the ones that are largely invisible because they aren't out panhandling or muttering on street corners or getting arrested by the cops. They're the ones all the resources that we offer actually help. They need a hand up and once poo poo stabilizes they become as productive members of society as any of us are. Which category do you think refugees are going to fall into? Because you seem to be implying the former but they match up far better with the latter. This isn't a population of severe schizophrenics or lifelong alcoholics. These are normal people who had normal lives and normal jobs and then had their country go to poo poo. Really, the existence of a homeless population has absolutely nothing to do with refugees. You might as well wring your hands over the number of stray cats. Ohthehugemanatee fucked around with this message at 05:59 on Sep 4, 2015 |
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Sep 4, 2015 05:50
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McDowell posted:A lasting peace must be brought to the Middle East so reconstruction and resettlement can begin. The US, Russia, and China must unite to achieve this. I demand that this conference turn rain into gummy bears so I can have a nice snack whenever work stops.
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Sep 4, 2015 06:00
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The facile recommendations by some folks to simply open up the borders and see what happens is a recipe for failure, and not only is a disservice to the actual refugees but also all the people who are trying to help them now and in the future. Make an actual plan for social services, for funding, for housing, for education, for employment, for law enforcement, etc. Acting as if a massive refugee population doesn't incur costs and special needs is foolish, and implies a certain degree of nihilism about the folks who will fall through the cracks and/or be targeted by anti-immigration groups and predatory actors.Stereotype posted:I would like to see some numbers to back this up. Europe already has a significant homeless population, why are these refugees so easy to house and integrate into society? Also turning Europe into Lebanon doesn't seem very realistic considering their government is extremely overtaxed and is in danger of collapsing itself. Also Lebanon's refugee population mostly lives in UN aid camps that are run by gangs and look like this: 
Kaal fucked around with this message at 06:19 on Sep 4, 2015 |
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Sep 4, 2015 06:11
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The only sane and legitimate argument to have is "how do we do it". The argument of"should we do it" is almost offensive to have. Of course it should be done, it should be done as soon as possible. Let those people have refuge. We can argue the how later when they are safe for fucks sake.
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Sep 4, 2015 06:14
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klen dool posted:The only sane and legitimate argument to have is "how do we do it". The argument of"should we do it" is almost offensive to have. Of course it should be done, it should be done as soon as possible. Let those people have refuge. We can argue the how later when they are safe for fucks sake. Should we what, exactly? "Do something now!" is a stupid answer that results in the Syrians living in UN border camps for the next 10-30 years. I don't know why anyone would think that war refugees are a recent or unique phenomenon. Refugees have been pouring out of Africa and the Middle East for decades, and will continue to do so. Get a good photo of a kid dead on a beach and the public wakes up to it for a while, but the reality is that public interest will fade and then the practical concerns of "who is going to pay for all of this" and "how many can we take in" will resurface. There are 60 million war refugees in the world. There are far more economic migrants who similarly are looking for a better life in a rich country. Does your solution apply to them, or just people who say they're from Syria? Why or why not? Kaal fucked around with this message at 06:30 on Sep 4, 2015 |
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Sep 4, 2015 06:23
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Kaal posted:The facile recommendations by some folks to simply open up the borders and see what happens is a recipe for failure, and not only is a disservice to the actual refugees but also all the people who are trying to help them now and in the future. Make an actual plan for social services, for funding, for housing, for education, for employment, for law enforcement, etc. Acting as if a massive refugee population doesn't incur costs and special needs is foolish, and implies a certain degree of nihilism about the folks who will fall through the cracks and/or be targeted by anti-immigration groups and predatory actors. Is anybody suggesting to actually "open up the borders and see what happens" though?
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Sep 4, 2015 06:30
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won't somebody please think of the money?
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Sep 4, 2015 06:35
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Ernie Muppari posted:won't somebody please think of the money? To be fair, when it comes to proposed interventions, like a no fly zone to end bombing runs on civilians, and provide safe areas within Syria so people don't have to flee, generally the same people who support increased efforts to resettle refugees as of this week or w/e have a lot to say about the cost of those efforts. Volkerball fucked around with this message at 06:45 on Sep 4, 2015 |
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Sep 4, 2015 06:39
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Stereotype posted:You should look at this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_net_migration_rate Why are you conflating migrants and refugees? 
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Sep 4, 2015 06:39
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Ernie Muppari posted:won't somebody please think of the money? Plans cost money. Nothing is free. If you want to actually create a social net for these people, to actually integrate them into EU society - or for that matter American society - and turn them into citizens, then that's going require actual, you know, thought. You're going to have to make compromises and concessions to either raise new taxes, or divert money from existing welfare programs. The alternative is a UN border camp on the coast of Hungary. Exclamation Marx posted:Why are you conflating migrants and refugees? Because generally that terminology is largely semantic. Is an African immigrant leaving the country because his family ticked off the local dictator and he's afraid of his family's livelihood or is he leaving the country because he can't find work (because the only jobs available are reserved for friends of the local dictator). The former might be classified as a refugee, whereas the latter would be a migrant. Kaal fucked around with this message at 06:47 on Sep 4, 2015 |
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Sep 4, 2015 06:41
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Volkerball posted:To be fair, when it comes to proposed interventions, like a no fly zone to end bombing runs on civilians, and provide safe areas within Syria so people don't have to flee, generally the same people who support increased efforts to resettle refugees have a lot to say about the cost of those efforts. what? Kaal posted:Plans cost money. Nothing is free. If you want to actually create a social net for these people, to actually integrate them into EU society - or for that matter American society - and turn them into citizens, then that's going require actual, you know, thought. You're going to have to make compromises and concessions to either raise new taxes, or divert money from existing welfare programs. The alternative is a UN border camp on the coast of Hungary. lol, okay i'll just draw up a detailed plan to present to my good friends in on the atlantic council, i'll start a megathread to hammer out precise details later Ernie Muppari fucked around with this message at 06:49 on Sep 4, 2015 |
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Sep 4, 2015 06:44
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Kaal posted:Because generally that terminology is largely semantic. Is an African immigrant leaving the country because his family ticked off the local dictator and he can no longer find work, or is he leaving the country because he can't find work (because the only jobs available are reserved for friends of the local dictator). The former might be classified as a refugee, whereas the latter would be a migrant. So you disagree with Amnesty Intl. on this topic, and think they're wrong? https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2014/12/7-things-you-probably-didn-t-know-about-migrants/ quote:5. How is a migrant different from a refugee or an asylum-seeker?
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Sep 4, 2015 06:48
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Sharkie posted:So you disagree with Amnesty Intl. on this topic, and think they're wrong? Rather that you simply don't appreciate how those distinctions work in practice. Ernie Muppari posted:lol, okay i'll just draw up a detailed plan to present to my good friends in on the atlantic council, i'll start a megathread to hammer out precise details later I look forward to the further expansion of the UNHCR then. It's hard to take folks seriously when they wake up to an ongoing issue and start wailing and gnashing their teeth that "someone outta do something", and then immediately shrug their shoulders when pressed for any suggestions at all, much less plans for actually implementing those ideas in the real world. Kaal fucked around with this message at 06:54 on Sep 4, 2015 |
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Sep 4, 2015 06:50
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Kaal posted:Rather that you simply don't appreciate how those distinctions work in practice. So I mean do you think there's a difference, or is there not? And is there any question in your mind as to which camp people fleeing Syria are in? Because if not, what's your point?
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Sep 4, 2015 06:54
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Kaal posted:I look forward to the further expansion of the UNHCR then. It's hard to take folks seriously when they wake up to an ongoing issue and start wailing and gnashing their teeth that "someone outta do something", and then immediately shrug their shoulders when pressed for any suggestions at all. i also don't take anyone seriously ever
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Sep 4, 2015 06:55
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Sharkie posted:So I mean do you think there's a difference, or is there not? And is there any question in your mind as to which camp people fleeing Syria are in? Because if not, what's your point? On a Wikipedia list comparing all the countries of the world, or a Facebook info graphic? No there's practically no difference at all. In the real world, most people straddle the line and desperately hope for whatever status can grant them the longest stay (which isn't necessarily refugee status). The vast, vast majority of the folks fleeing Syria will be classified as asylum-seekers, and perhaps eventually as refugees, and they'll spend the next few years bouncing around European aid organizations before their visa expires and they are returned to Syria. Kaal fucked around with this message at 07:00 on Sep 4, 2015 |
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Sep 4, 2015 06:57
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