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Agag posted:I'm just saying this isn't any different from Achilles. Right, but Achilles wasn't just faster or stronger, he had been dipped in whatever that made him almost invulnerable as well. It's a different style of character and although it lets them accomplish extraordinary things, it also paints the writer into a corner as far as character development. It's hard to develop an empathetic character when they are immune to so much of the human condition. Even the obvious route of their differences making them a pariah or an outsider is usually only touched upon because they ultimately do something heroic and redeem themselves.
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Sep 7, 2015 21:09
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Agag posted:I could see that. the only space marine i know is master chief and that sargent he knows
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Sep 7, 2015 21:10
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and the hundreds of other who died
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Sep 7, 2015 21:11
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Mumpy Puffinz posted:and the hundreds of other who died That's what happens when you don't have the protecting light of the Emperor. 
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Sep 7, 2015 21:12
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Agag posted:I could see that. In the Warhammer setting, nearly all Space Marine fiction is garbage for this very reason. When you're bred to be an unthinking puritan murder machine, it turns out making you the main character is boring. The Imperial Guard fiction in that setting is light years better than any of the Space Marine crap excepting maybe a few stories about traitor marines coming to grips with difficult truths about their existence.
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Sep 7, 2015 21:12
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Agag posted:That's what happens when you don't have the protecting light of the Emperor. is this a warhammer joke? I only played the space marine game
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Sep 7, 2015 21:14
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sean connery's dick bulge
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Sep 7, 2015 21:15
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achilles is one of the most empathetic characters in all of literature
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Sep 7, 2015 21:18
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Mumpy Puffinz posted:is this a warhammer joke? I only played the space marine game Yeah man. Sorry. natetimm posted:In the Warhammer setting, nearly all Space Marine fiction is garbage for this very reason. Its garbage the way all metal aesthetic stuff is garbage. I.e. it rules, but you're not going to hang it in the Louvre. Its an airbrushed van.
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Sep 7, 2015 21:19
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also how can you claim batman doesn't have the same kind of plot armor as every other character you've named? batman is invulnerable through superhuman martial arts, completely unbelievable strength, fantastical tech, and the ability to predict 72 moves in advance of anything
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Sep 7, 2015 21:20
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nomadologique posted:achilles is one of the most empathetic characters in all of literature Achilles suffers from existential ennui, and feels like he's wasting his talents working for a shithead. We can all relate to this.
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Sep 7, 2015 21:20
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nomadologique posted:achilles is one of the most empathetic characters in all of literature he is a known character because he is a loser.
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Sep 7, 2015 21:21
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nomadologique posted:and the ability to predict 72 moves in advance of anything This is how genre writers indicate that somebody is a genius, they are able to de facto know the future.
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Sep 7, 2015 21:21
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Go read "The Wandering Earth" by Cixin Liu and you'll see that good sci-fi is still alive and well.
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Sep 7, 2015 21:22
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he bargains his own life away for glory, becomes an inhuman animal while killing the noble foe who killed his lover, then overcomes his antagonism through deep filial feeling to give the body back to the father of the deceased
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Sep 7, 2015 21:24
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"yeah but one time btaman got his back broken" yeah but one time superman died so ??
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Sep 7, 2015 21:25
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If I could have drones that automatically targeted anyone who used the term "Mary Sue" seriously, that would be great. It used to have a specific meaning. Now it's just "anyone who's good at stuff in a way that I don't find believable", even in fantasy books which are regularly about world-shattering chosen ones destined by prophecy to alter everything known.
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Sep 7, 2015 21:29
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I feel like some of you guys don't understand what the term mary sue refers to and have also never read the Iliad.
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Sep 7, 2015 21:29
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afaik mary sue is just a pretty normal self insert so riddick would not really be a mary sue except in the extended sense that the author really wants to be that badass, nevertheless this dude i was talking about riddick with used it that way so i went along with it
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Sep 7, 2015 21:31
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Hobohemian posted:I feel like some of you guys don't understand what the term mary sue refers to and have also never read the Iliad. its a guy who always wins and gets the girl, so, every video game character
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Sep 7, 2015 21:32
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i thought mary sue was a extrafictionalized version of kerouac in on the road, a tagalong loser who has repressed sexual feelings for the unattainable hero
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Sep 7, 2015 21:33
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A Mary Sue is an authorial insert into an existing universe who is better than any of the universe's already established characters (usually to an absurd degree). It's not necessarily a self-insert, though this is pretty common, and they're often welcomed and saluted by those same established characters. "Check out my new Star Trek story with Captain Dave, who can singlehandedly replace the entire bridge crew because he's a better doctor than McCoy and a better engineer than Scotty and can outfight Kirk. See how Starfleet loves him and Kirk willingly gives up his chair to this legend."
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Sep 7, 2015 21:40
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Applewhite posted:Peter F. Hamilton's Night's Dawn Trilogy was written in the 90's and his Commonwealth Saga was written in the 00's. Both are excellent space opera adventures and neither are obviously derivative. Someone needs to make Night's Dawn as a TV series, it would be hilarious. I mean there is plenty of other stuff they're making that is equally as retarded, why not magic space zombies?
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Sep 7, 2015 21:43
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a mary sue character is when the Dungeon Master sticks an NPC "guide" into your party who is in every way more of a bad rear end than the rest of the party
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Sep 7, 2015 21:44
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Agag posted:Its weird to me that sci-fi etc has its own terminology for literary criticism. Nobody says "Mary Sue" unless they are talking about sci-fi/fantasy/games. I can't even tell what it means besides "is stronger and smarter than all the other characters," which is a literary trope since Gilgamesh. Basically, a Mary Sue is a character who is portrayed as so "perfect" that any character growth is impossible. Gilgamesh is stronger and smarter than nearly anyone else in his story, but who he is as a character changes as the story goes on. He starts out as kind of a dick, but becomes more humble as he becomes friends with Enkidu. After Enkidu dies, Gilgamesh acknowledges his own mortality, and this frightens him into seeking eternal life. After a long journey he finally does acquire the means to live for ever, but after he's tricked and loses his opportunity, he weeps. Compare that to the character of Riddick. Riddick goes on plenty of adventures, but he never really grows as a character. The only thing about him that changes between the begin and the end of his story is when planet he's on and what things he has. While Gilgamesh is strong and smart, he develops as a character. Riddick doesn't, and that's what makes him a Mary Sue. Schwarzwald fucked around with this message at 21:47 on Sep 7, 2015 |
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Sep 7, 2015 21:44
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Rutibex posted:a mary sue character is when the Dungeon Master sticks an NPC "guide" into your party who is in every way more of a bad rear end than the rest of the party you are such a goddam nerd
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Sep 7, 2015 21:45
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Schwarzwald posted:Basically, a Mary Sue is a character who is portrayed as so "perfect" that any character growth is impossible. He almost looked like he might have some character development in the cliffhanger ending of the second movie when his friend died but nah.
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Sep 7, 2015 21:51
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It's all gone downhill since Cordwainer Smith passed. Read "Norstrilia". The story of Old North Australia, Where the Santaclara drug of immortality is grown in titanic diseased sheep; where a clever boy bought the Earth- to the great consternation of the Lords of the Instumentality of Man- a most merciless regime. And "Under Old Earth". And "The Ballad of Lost C'mell".-She fell in love with a hominid. And the story of D'joan, The Dog-Saint. And "Mark Elf", with the Monshanjaggers (Manhunters). Ancient Nazi machines. Or, free on the Internet as a sample, "Mother Hitton's Littul Kittons". Which, as it turns out, are not kittens at all. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_Hitton%27s_Littul_Kittons Can't seem to load the page with the story now, God-loving-Dammit. ... No one ever did it better, I thinks. ... Away and away into the up and out. zimboe fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Sep 7, 2015 |
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Sep 7, 2015 21:52
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Agag posted:I'm just saying this isn't any different from Achilles. You're dead right. The whole "Mary Sue" terminology is really a cultural curiosity arising from the early internet allowing kids of the time to codify literary habits without having to have studied the masters in depth. Weirdly enough despite the breadth of stupidity emanating from this abyss, that same breadth has allowed kids to be more aware of literary structure because it directly relates to contemporary material they're familiar with. natetimm posted:For me, it's not just being stronger and smarter, there has to be some sort of plot device inherent to the character. Wolverine, for example, has unbreakable bones and claws and his ridiculous healing factor. Riddick is a member of an uber-race and has those eye implants. It's always something fantastical that explains why the character can accomplish things that normal people can't. Batman is not really a Mary Sue because his traits of being uber-rich and well-trained, actually exist in real life. He has to plan accordingly for things like guns, bullets, poison, fist fights, etc. Normal hazards like that only really come into play with Mary Sue characters when it pleases the writer. You're an idiot. Batman can function as a Mary Sue the same way any serial character can, all that has to happen is for the character to survive impossible situations and be beloved for reasons that basically boil down to "they're the most specialest snowflake that ever snowflaked" in addition to the aforementioned lack of character growth (why would they need to grow? they're already the specialest).
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Sep 7, 2015 22:07
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mind the walrus posted:You're an idiot. Batman can function as a Mary Sue the same way any serial character can, all that has to happen is for the character to survive impossible situations and be beloved for reasons that basically boil down to "they're the most specialest snowflake that ever snowflaked" in addition to the aforementioned lack of character growth (why would they need to grow? they're already the specialest). The character doesn't even have to survive. The namesake Mary Sue died at the end--she was too good and too perfect for this impure galaxy.
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Sep 7, 2015 22:16
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Cake Smashing Boob posted:it's all dumb/gay/insular American genre fiction now Hahaha, like it hasn't been that way since '60s, with Ursula Le Guin and Anne Macaffrey. The stereotypical sci-fi novel with white male protagonists flying space rockets and fighting aliens in power armor is from the '50s, and even the king of that, Robert Heinlein, grew bored of it and wrote about hippies, free love, and transgender.
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Sep 7, 2015 22:17
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the peak of science fiction was the chapter where bob arctor opened the hood of his car and it was full of dog poo poo and he couldn't tell whether it was really full of dog poo poo or he was just tripping. it's all been really bad since then
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Sep 7, 2015 22:22
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Consider Phlebas (Iain M Banks) was awful. As with everything else goon taste sucks.
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Sep 7, 2015 22:26
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sinking belle posted:the peak of science fiction was the chapter where bob arctor opened the hood of his car and it was full of dog poo poo and he couldn't tell whether it was really full of dog poo poo or he was just tripping. it's all been really bad since then Sounds like Phillip K. Dick to me.
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Sep 7, 2015 22:27
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Ratios and Tendency posted:Consider Phlebas (Iain M Banks) was awful. As with everything else goon taste sucks. Consider Phlebas is ok, but suffers from "first novel" syndrome where Banks didn't realize that describing space opera action sequences in great detail is not his strong suit nor something long-form novels are suited to. I haven't read Matter, Look to Windward, or the Hydrogen Sonata but the other books range the gamut of "ok" (Excession) to "genuinely good" (Use of Weapons, Surface Detail).
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Sep 7, 2015 22:37
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matter is the best
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Sep 7, 2015 22:39
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monkey posted:Someone needs to make Night's Dawn as a TV series, it would be hilarious. I mean there is plenty of other stuff they're making that is equally as retarded, why not magic space zombies? I'm the space Al Capone.
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Sep 7, 2015 22:47
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Hydrogen Sonata is pretty good. The plot was a little predictable and the characters weren't as interesting as Use of Weapons but it had an underwater chase through a drug laced scuba maze inside a party zeppelin.
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Sep 7, 2015 22:56
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Luigi's Discount Porn Bin posted:Hydrogen Sonata is pretty good. The plot was a little predictable and the characters weren't as interesting as Use of Weapons but it had an underwater chase through a drug laced scuba maze inside a party zeppelin. Party zeppelin? Is that anything like the Meat Blimp?
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Sep 7, 2015 22:58
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Every Culture party is a meat party.
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Sep 7, 2015 22:59
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