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The radio version of this story aired yesterday on Here & Now (with additional details), while the original (below) is from several weeks ago on KQED.Ana Tintocalis, KQED posted:Justin Van Zandt is a busy dad. He has five kids, all under 18 years old, and holds down a demanding full-time job. But that doesn’t stop him from spending all his free time teaching and tutoring his kids. “I want my kids to do as well as possible,” says Van Zandt. “I want them all to graduate college and have good jobs. If I work hard as a parent, that’s going to give them an edge.” So I'm making this thread not because I have some expertise in this issue (outside of having taken Algebra 1 in 7th grade maybe?) but because I really know very little about this issue and hope to better understand it. So after hearing this on the radio, I'm a little shocked and I have a bunch of questions. 1. Is this an accurate portrayal of the changes being made? I presume this is a little more on point than a dumb Facebook NEW MATH COMMON CORE meme, but I just want to make sure. 2. At least the way I took math in Middle/High School, (Middle was 6-8, High was 9-12), the standard math plan was Algebra in 9th grade, then Geometry, Algebra 2/Trigonometry, Pre-Calc in 12th. AP Calc was available for students a year ahead in math, and beyond that you could take community college courses or something if you wanted. That being said, is there less mathematics being taught here? Will students who are required to start Algebra be able to see Calculus before college if they so wish? They say that the math is becoming "more rigorous and engaging", but from a personal standpoint, I wouldn't have been allowed to enter the college I attended without some Calculus - every freshman started with Calculus of Real/Imaginary Numbers. 2b. At around 3:50 of the Here & Now recording, they discuss how in addition to all of those changes, Algebra will now take two years to complete. Are they simply adding parts of Geometry/Trig/Linear Equations or what? If not, aren't these students going to be farther behind? 3. Is the removal of early higher level math courses really a social justice issue? I genuinely don't know enough to say, so please take that question in the spirit in which I'm asking it. I certainly don't buy the idea that some commenters were throwing around that the brains of these children aren't developed enough to handle "5x = 25, solve for x". What does this say about honors courses, or Advanced Placement/International Baccalaureate programs? 4. Is this happening in a lot of other areas and simply isn't being reported on, or is this school district unique? Should this be a model for the rest of the country? Feel free to simply post links that better answer these questions, use the thread to discuss these and similar common core or social justice in education issues - I just wanted to start off with a few questions and get a better foundational understanding of what's going on here.
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# ? Sep 11, 2015 01:18 |
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# ? Mar 28, 2024 15:46 |
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Those who don't learn algebra will die at the hands of those who do.
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# ? Sep 11, 2015 01:30 |
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It sounds more like they are no longer teaching a class called "Algebra" and are instead actually trying to teach the concepts at an earlier age. Moron parents see this and blurt out "where's algebra??" It's in math. As for "super-smart kids," cry me a river. They'll be fine no matter what, and their fussbudget parents should be ignored.
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# ? Sep 11, 2015 01:46 |
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Common core is retarded when it comes to math education so no surprise here.
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# ? Sep 11, 2015 01:53 |
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Having smart kids tutor and teach other kids is demonstrably super-good for them. They're not going to be seriously delayed by not learning Algebra I in favor of having a much more concrete and thorough knowledge of math. There's not going to be enough of those kids to make up a whole class at most schools. if there are, sure, make a special math class for them, but I'd bet the kids who stick with the norm and help the other kids will, later on, outperform the kids who get a 1 year jump on algebra I.
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# ? Sep 11, 2015 01:54 |
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SedanChair posted:As for "super-smart kids," cry me a river. They'll be fine no matter what, and their fussbudget parents should be ignored. Ok, drop the parental bullshit for a second, but do you honestly believe that someone who is taking a little more math is some rare, unique, "super-smart" kid? Moreover, they're using this philosophy to ditch honors classes, and presumably courses like AP or IB. I don't know about you, but having access to those sorts of courses really made a difference for myself, and lots of others I went to school with. I hate to sound so defensive here because I really am interested in understanding more the social justice aspects about this, but if it weren't for these courses I would be a completely different person than I am today. I wouldn't have been able to be a math major in college without having access to Calculus early. My perspective on the United States would be orders of magnitude more ignorant if my AP US History teacher didn't hand me a copy of A People's History. I was a violist for 11 years because of school, and there's no way I would have developed a love of music if we just stuck with recorders as a whole class. I'm not about to claim that I'm "super-smart", but I don't think I would have been "fine no matter what" without that sort of challenging education. Parent's are always going to be obnoxious, but do you honestly believe that having no options for more challenging work is the right way to go? Obdicut posted:Having smart kids tutor and teach other kids is demonstrably super-good for them. They're not going to be seriously delayed by not learning Algebra I in favor of having a much more concrete and thorough knowledge of math. There's not going to be enough of those kids to make up a whole class at most schools. if there are, sure, make a special math class for them, but I'd bet the kids who stick with the norm and help the other kids will, later on, outperform the kids who get a 1 year jump on algebra I. I went to rather large and poor school (2/3 reduced/free lunch), 2k students, 60% minority enrollment and we had lots of students taking Algebra a year or two early (20-30 students/class) with enough for 1-2 sections of AP Calculus for those in that path, along with an additional section of AP Statistics for those who weren't on the "traditional path" before it was canned for stupid reasons. The thing is, there are clearly enough for more advanced classes (or just do what my district did and schedule them early in the High School, and have the younger students walk back to Middle School after), but they're getting rid of it. More importantly, they're using this philosophy to get rid of other honors type classes.
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# ? Sep 11, 2015 02:34 |
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Solkanar512 posted:
Did you not read what I said or something? First, I said sure, make a special math class for them. Second of all, the 'philosophy' is a pedagogy. If you think they're wrong in their approach to math, you have to make an actual argument, not just imply that obviously taking more advanced classes early is better or that, since you think it was better for you, that anecdote proves your case. Why the hell do you think they're ditching AP classes? Why are you talking about 'only recorders'?
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# ? Sep 11, 2015 02:43 |
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i mourn for those poor poor dumbos in san fran who wont get to have the same experience of social isolation and ostracization as i did for not mathing good @ age 11
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# ? Sep 11, 2015 02:46 |
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I'm pretty sure that's the standard system here. At least I remember one year where I'd have to get bussed to the high school to get to my advanced math course.
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# ? Sep 11, 2015 02:50 |
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tsa posted:Common core is retarded when it comes to math education so no surprise here. How so?
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# ? Sep 11, 2015 03:10 |
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"District officials say the controversial practice of tracking students — or separating them based on talent and ability — is simply wrong." Is this really controversial? Where is this controversy happening?
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# ? Sep 11, 2015 03:30 |
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Obdicut posted:First, I said sure, make a special math class for them. That's exactly what they're not doing anymore though? This could absolutely be a social justice issue if it means that kids in public schools fall even further behind the ones who can afford the tuition and tutors necessary to get into fancy private schools.
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# ? Sep 11, 2015 03:43 |
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Yashichi posted:"District officials say the controversial practice of tracking students — or separating them based on talent and ability — is simply wrong." Tracking is very controversial in education. Historically it has been used to separate students of different races and classes - offering very little to the poor students of color who actually do manage to go to decent schools. My own experiences in high school worked essentially this way. I went to a large public school in a rich neighborhood, which also drew a lot of poor, black students from the "bad" part of town. I was put into almost-entirely-white gifted classes and there were "regular" wings of the school where the non-honors, non-gifted students mostly took their classes. We would basically only meet in PE or electives.
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# ? Sep 11, 2015 03:46 |
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That's really lovely but it seems to be a distinct issue from students having different levels of ability and classes that reflect that fact
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# ? Sep 11, 2015 03:53 |
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PERPETUAL IDIOT posted:Tracking is very controversial in education. Historically it has been used to separate students of different races and classes - offering very little to the poor students of color who actually do manage to go to decent schools. I understand how this could happen. Richer elementary schools with more resources are much more likely to produce students that would fall into advanced track classes. Statistically students of color are more likely to come from schools with fewer resources and lower API scores. I don't think the answer is to eliminate advanced track courses though. The answer is to improve math education at the elementary schools in all neighborhoods
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# ? Sep 11, 2015 03:58 |
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Not sure how applicable this is but Math seems to be particularly well suited to being taught in massive open online courses. I took a linear algebra course and I retained it better than my university courses because of the instant feedback. I know that Khan academy has a entry level algebra section.
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# ? Sep 11, 2015 03:59 |
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Yashichi posted:That's really lovely but it seems to be a distinct issue from students having different levels of ability and classes that reflect that fact Sure - just use a measure of the singular concept of "student ability" that isn't heavily associated with racial and socioeconomic factors, and then place students into different tracks based on that measure. Seems simple enough, really.
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# ? Sep 11, 2015 04:11 |
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My opinion: large swaths of mathematics and algebra in particular are low class drudgery made largely irrelevant by computers and calculators. Math to most of real life is like spelling and grammar to writing. It's a tool which should be understood well enough to manipulate but fixation on the mechanics of the process is either mostly irrelevant or actually impedes higher level thought.
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# ? Sep 11, 2015 04:16 |
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asdf32 posted:My opinion: large swaths of mathematics and algebra in particular are low class drudgery made largely irrelevant by computers and calculators. Math to most of real life is like spelling and grammar to writing. It's a tool which should be understood well enough to manipulate but fixation on the mechanics of the process is either mostly irrelevant or actually impedes higher level thought. The Common Core math curriculum agrees with you
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# ? Sep 11, 2015 04:18 |
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asdf32 posted:My opinion: large swaths of mathematics and algebra in particular are low class drudgery made largely irrelevant by computers and calculators. Math to most of real life is like spelling and grammar to writing. It's a tool which should be understood well enough to manipulate but fixation on the mechanics of the process is either mostly irrelevant or actually impedes higher level thought. You're fighting against an impoverished notion of math and algebra. You're confusing the study of those things, which are incredibly rich, worthwhile subjects, with the study of specific algorithms and rote memorization that you were given in school. There's no reason why it has to be that way.
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# ? Sep 11, 2015 04:22 |
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Solkanar512 posted:Ok, drop the parental bullshit for a second, but do you honestly believe that someone who is taking a little more math is some rare, unique, "super-smart" kid? No I was specifically responding to the article talking about "super-smart kids." quote:Moreover, they're using this philosophy to ditch honors classes, and presumably courses like AP or IB. I don't know about you, but having access to those sorts of courses really made a difference for myself, and lots of others I went to school with. I did fine in regular classes, and generally seemed to know more than kids in IB when the subject interested me. quote:I'm not about to claim that I'm "super-smart", but I don't think I would have been "fine no matter what" without that sort of challenging education. Parent's are always going to be obnoxious, but do you honestly believe that having no options for more challenging work is the right way to go? I don't think it's as important as keeping kids with fewer advantages out of cycles of failure. I have literally no concern for the kid in the article or her tiger dad.
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# ? Sep 11, 2015 04:25 |
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PERPETUAL IDIOT posted:Sure - just use a measure of the singular concept of "student ability" that isn't heavily associated with racial and socioeconomic factors, and then place students into different tracks based on that measure. Seems simple enough, really. I'm not sure why the course of action is to pretend all students are equal because racists might abuse the system. Shouldn't the goal be to improve educational opportunities for students with these disadvantages instead?
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# ? Sep 11, 2015 04:33 |
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Yashichi posted:I'm not sure why the course of action is to pretend all students are equal because racists might abuse the system. Shouldn't the goal be to improve educational opportunities for students with these disadvantages instead? What if the disadvantaged students benefit from an integrated class?
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# ? Sep 11, 2015 04:45 |
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asdf32 posted:My opinion: large swaths of mathematics and algebra in particular are low class drudgery made largely irrelevant by computers and calculators. Math to most of real life is like spelling and grammar to writing. It's a tool which should be understood well enough to manipulate but fixation on the mechanics of the process is either mostly irrelevant or actually impedes higher level thought. Uh if one doesn't understand the mechanics they're gonna be poo poo at all higher levels of mathematics mate
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# ? Sep 11, 2015 04:56 |
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computer parts posted:What if the disadvantaged students benefit from an integrated class? improbable!
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# ? Sep 11, 2015 04:57 |
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computer parts posted:What if the disadvantaged students benefit from an integrated class? That's certainly possible, but I would be skeptical of the claim that they need to be in the same class using the same curriculum, as opposed to peer tutoring or some other system. I think there is a societal interest in helping high achieving students advance as well as ensuring a quality education for all students, and I don't believe those goals are mutually exclusive.
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# ? Sep 11, 2015 04:59 |
Yashichi posted:That's certainly possible, but I would be skeptical of the claim that they need to be in the same class using the same curriculum, as opposed to peer tutoring or some other system. I think there is a societal interest in helping high achieving students advance as well as ensuring a quality education for all students, and I don't believe those goals are mutually exclusive.
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# ? Sep 11, 2015 05:12 |
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Jagchosis posted:Uh if one doesn't understand the mechanics they're gonna be poo poo at all higher levels of mathematics mate Generally wrong. I'll repeat the analogy from above: math to science and engineering is like spelling to literature. Personally I spell at probably a 4th grade level and don't know know what the word adjective means. This is largely irrelevant to my ability to write on a computer (and I write at what, 10th grade level at least). They're just not necesarily related, and it's the higher level thinking and manipulation that's more important and more widely applicable in the real world than mechanics. The emphasis is on mechanics is a problem for students as well as a crutch for teachers and tests to reduce actual abstract subjects down to easy to grade numerical results.
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# ? Sep 11, 2015 05:14 |
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asdf32 posted:Generally wrong. I'll repeat the analogy from above: math to science and engineering is like spelling to literature. I'll repeat to you. Math to science and engineering is not like spelling to literature. Many people on the theoretical cutting edge of a lot of scientific fields are essentially super-specialized applied mathematicians. Some of the greatest mathematicians who ever lived were engineers trying to solve practical problems. You don't know what you're talking about, presumably because you were let down in your math education.
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# ? Sep 11, 2015 05:24 |
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asdf32 posted:My opinion: large swaths of mathematics and algebra in particular are low class drudgery made largely irrelevant by computers and calculators. Math to most of real life is like spelling and grammar to writing. It's a tool which should be understood well enough to manipulate but fixation on the mechanics of the process is either mostly irrelevant or actually impedes higher level thought. Are you loving serious? The U.S. already has the highest drop out rate (1 of 3) of any first world country in addition to possessing the lowest standards of education as well. But yes, lets dumb down English and math curriculums even more when a significant number of people are already typing up their resumes with the caliber of grammar & spelling commonly found on Facebook & Twitter.
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# ? Sep 11, 2015 05:39 |
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Nessus posted:What does "helping high achieving students advance" mean here? Like there's this artificial dichotomy between having special courses for the Saiyan elite mathletes or whatever, and having coursework in which students engage in large amounts of peer tutoring. My understanding is that from a pedagogical perspective, peer tutoring is amazing for everyone concerned, and if you're in a situation where either all thirty kids in the class can get a lot of advantage, or the four hot shots can get a WHOLE lot of advantage and everyone else gets jack poo poo, I think you go with #1. By the phrasing of the article, it seems like the school is keeping the common algebra 1/algebra 2/geometry/precalculus setup, but they're delaying algebra 1 to 9th grade for all students. That means they won't see calculus in high school unless they are extremely motivated to make it happen. Algebra to calculus is a bigger jump than middle school pre-algebra to algebra, and anecdotally I've noticed that spending a year on calculus in high school makes it easier in college. If ~10% of students are fully ready for algebra in 8th grade and they have to wait a year, that's a wasted opportunity to get them to where they could be.
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# ? Sep 11, 2015 05:42 |
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Guy DeBorgore posted:That's exactly what they're not doing anymore though? Again, I'm saying that I bet that the new integrated classes put them farther ahead.
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# ? Sep 11, 2015 05:52 |
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Solution is to make all classes from elementary to high school available online for everybody to take if they so desire.
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# ? Sep 11, 2015 06:11 |
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asdf32 posted:My opinion: large swaths of mathematics and algebra in particular are low class drudgery made largely irrelevant by computers and calculators. Math to most of real life is like spelling and grammar to writing. It's a tool which should be understood well enough to manipulate but fixation on the mechanics of the process is either mostly irrelevant or actually impedes higher level thought. You are one dumb motherfucker (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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# ? Sep 11, 2015 06:20 |
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Obdicut posted:Again, I'm saying that I bet that the new integrated classes put them farther ahead. wiregrind fucked around with this message at 06:44 on Sep 11, 2015 |
# ? Sep 11, 2015 06:37 |
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asdf32 posted:My opinion: large swaths of mathematics and algebra in particular are low class drudgery made largely irrelevant by computers and calculators. Math to most of real life is like spelling and grammar to writing. It's a tool which should be understood well enough to manipulate but fixation on the mechanics of the process is either mostly irrelevant or actually impedes higher level thought.
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# ? Sep 11, 2015 06:43 |
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wiregrind posted:Helping more people pass public highschool by loosening up math makes a deeper social inequality further down the line when only people who could afford private education can keep up with University. It will probably help maintain a tight elite of high-class-only graduates. That's not what is happening at all, according to the article.
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# ? Sep 11, 2015 06:50 |
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Obdicut posted:Did you not read what I said or something? The article and more detailed recording explicitly talks about how the special math classes will no longer be offered. Thus, while you and I both agree that the class should be there, it won't be. Furthermore, the same reasoning that is removing such math classes is also removing honors classes. quote:Second of all, the 'philosophy' is a pedagogy. If you think they're wrong in their approach to math, you have to make an actual argument, not just imply that obviously taking more advanced classes early is better or that, since you think it was better for you, that anecdote proves your case. I think they're wrong not in terms of problem solving or group work, but in terms of not teaching enough material to ensure students who need it have access to Calculus*. The whole "teach other students" thing is legit, I agree there. It's the "we're not going to allow you to take math early even though lots of folks do it, and furthermore we're going to take one year class and make it two years" that bothers me. It's the "we're going to remove advanced classes all together for social justice reasons, so no honors courses either" that bother me. Having access to Calculus opens a poo poo ton of doors when it comes to college, especially when it done under AP/IB or Running Start type programs where credits directly transfer. The reason I feel the courses need to be taken early is that there's a ton of foundational work needed before you get to limits and whatnot, and it seems to me that if you're forcing students to start later and make the foundational courses even longer, they won't make the trip. Look, I could be completely wrong and it just turns out that it's all integrated and they'll move straight from the two year Algebra course into Calculus, but I haven't seen any evidence of this as of yet. As far as the AP/recorders comment, many schools treat AP/IB as an "honors" type class, so for the same reasons I seem them likely to go. The recorders comment is similar - some schools introduce younger kids to recorders as a class, then later on let them choose to join orchestra or band - the latter being the "more advanced" course in comparison. *I would also throw statistics here as an addition or alternative, but that to is "advanced" and likely not going to be seen in such an environment.
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# ? Sep 11, 2015 06:53 |
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# ? Mar 28, 2024 15:46 |
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Obdicut posted:There's not going to be enough of those kids to make up a whole class at most schools. You go to a bad school if there aren't enough people taking Algebra I in 9th grade to make up a whole class. At the school I went to during 9th grade (before I moved back to Canada), the solid students were in Geometry in 9th grade, the really good ones were in Algebra II, and there were a handful of people in Pre-Calculus and Calculus AB as freshman. This was a solid school in an upper middle-class area, but not a magnet school or anything like that. Algebra I is by no means an 'honors'-level class for a freshman. Making it impossible for freshmen to take Algebra I basically will make it impossible for them to get into any high-quality school as a STEM major.
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# ? Sep 11, 2015 07:07 |