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mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006

a bay posted:

For the guys that dont like open relationships, would you rather be in an open relationship or not in a relationship

Not in one at all. I've got intimacy issues as it is, being on a timeshare sounds like a recipe for low self-esteem in my case.

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WobblySausage
Nov 7, 2014

Mr. Stingly posted:

Any arguments in favor of open relationships and the kind of anecdotal evidence supporting them usually boil down to a description of 3 or more people who don't really give a gently caress about each other and lack the kind of intense emotional connection people think of as Love or whatever. This is then said to be much more ideal than traditional monogamy because it lets the participants orgasm much more frequently, which of course is the entire purpose of a romantic relationship, satisfying one's cravings. Like a microwave cooking hot pockets for your all night game sesh, except for your genitals.

Mm are you agreeing that the entire purpose of a romantic relationship is to satisfy a craving? I can't tell if you're presenting that argument as a third party, or espousing it.

tuyop
Sep 15, 2006

Every second that we're not growing BASIL is a second wasted

Fun Shoe
That's funny, I was imagining the opposite. Monogamy is "my wife is a pussy for me to gently caress whenever I want" vs "my wife is a human who has an interest in freedom that I want to honour."

Edit: post is not edit, wtf.

tuyop fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Sep 11, 2015

Extra Large Marge
Jan 21, 2004

Fun Shoe

tuyop posted:

That's funny, I was imagining the opposite. Monogamy is "my wife is a pussy for me to gently caress whenever I want" vs "my wife is a human who has an interest in freedom that I want to honour."

You are confusing being monogamous with being a rapist

Moridin920
Nov 15, 2007

by FactsAreUseless

Mr. Stingly posted:

Any arguments in favor of open relationships and the kind of anecdotal evidence supporting them usually boil down to a description of 3 or more people who don't really give a gently caress about each other and lack the kind of intense emotional connection people think of as Love or whatever. This is then said to be much more ideal than traditional monogamy because it lets the participants orgasm much more frequently, which of course is the entire purpose of a romantic relationship, satisfying one's cravings. Like a microwave cooking hot pockets for your all night game sesh, except for your genitals.

yeah

it's just for like 'hey we like hanging out with each other and banging but we like banging other people too but we just want to say we're dating and maybe live together for the financial security'

it's not for real relationships imo idk. like occasionally is one thing but just an open relationship? prolly not gonna work unless you get 1 in a million people. it's just fun when you're young and there's attractive horny people everywhere and you're sick of the drama of cheating and trust issues and lying and poo poo.

ArbitraryC
Jan 28, 2009
Pick a number, any number
Pillbug
I don't see how open relationships can ever really work in a society that still likes mono relationships. Like I could potentially see a hippy love commune thing working* because everyone shares everyone, but when you go out with your friends friday night and they bring their monogamous dedicated gfs/bfs and they're like "hey where's your so?" and you just sorta have to look at your drink and mumble about them being on a date there's absolutely no way anyone is going to maintain respect for you. When you compare a mono to a poly/open thing it's always going to look (and objectively so) that the poly people's partners are less dedicated to them.

*: and even with this I recall reading how those communes end up with people on the top that monopolize the desirable partners and people on the bottom who pretty much get nothing, there's always going to be a status element to relationships

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006

tuyop posted:

That's funny, I was imagining the opposite. Monogamy is "my wife is a pussy for me to gently caress whenever I want" vs "my wife is a human who has an interest in freedom that I want to honour."

You do know there are women who don't like the idea of their man getting their cock wet wherever too right?

Plus not every monogamist is some creepy misogynistic or patriarchal douchebag. Some guys just like the idea of supreme intimacy with one person and trusting to a commitment that a woman values them enough to not jump on every attractive dick she meets. It's definitely got shades of controlling and insecure behavior in there but it's not malicious unless the guy is emotionally stunted and goes all Raging Bull on her.

a bay
Oct 14, 2014

by Lowtax

Moridin920 posted:

prolly not gonna work unless you get 1 in a million people.

Isnt that what love is supposed to be though regardless of the sex rules of the relationship

WobblySausage
Nov 7, 2014

Arian_Samurai posted:

You are confusing being monogamous with being a rapist

I wouldn't go that far, but yeah "my wife is a pussy to gently caress whenever" is way off base.

Moridin920 posted:

yeah

it's just for like 'hey we like hanging out with each other and banging but we like banging other people too but we just want to say we're dating and maybe live together for the financial security'

it's not for real relationships imo idk. like occasionally is one thing but just an open relationship? prolly not gonna work unless you get 1 in a million people. it's just fun when you're young and there's attractive horny people everywhere and you're sick of the drama of cheating and trust issues and lying and poo poo.

See I can see this. I could do it without the emotional attachment (and toothbrush sharing).

Again not trying to isolate tuyop here, as it's an interesting perspective, if at their core they're both totally cool with it.

ArbitraryC
Jan 28, 2009
Pick a number, any number
Pillbug

mind the walrus posted:

You do know there are women who don't like the idea of their man getting their cock wet wherever too right?

Plus not every monogamist is some creepy misogynistic or patriarchal douchebag. Some guys just like the idea of supreme intimacy with one person and trusting to a commitment that a woman values them enough to not jump on every attractive dick she meets. It's definitely got shades of controlling and insecure behavior in there but it's not malicious unless the guy is emotionally stunted and goes all Raging Bull on her.

In my experience the only people who talk about monogamy are "controlling genitals" are manipulative shitstains trying to morally browbeat their partners into sexual things they're not comfortable with. It's icky.

Moridin920
Nov 15, 2007

by FactsAreUseless

ArbitraryC posted:

I don't see how open relationships can ever really work in a society that still likes mono relationships. Like I could potentially see a hippy love commune thing working* because everyone shares everyone, but when you go out with your friends friday night and they bring their monogamous dedicated gfs/bfs and they're like "hey where's your so?" and you just sorta have to look at your drink and mumble about them being on a date there's absolutely no way anyone is going to maintain respect for you. When you compare a mono to a poly/open thing it's always going to look (and objectively so) that the poly people's partners are less dedicated to them.

*: and even with this I recall reading how those communes end up with people on the top that monopolize the desirable partners and people on the bottom who pretty much get nothing, there's always going to be a status element to relationships



nah you're just hanging out with uptight people


a bay posted:

Isnt that what love is supposed to be though regardless of the sex rules of the relationship

yeah. i think it's possible to separate out love and loving but it is understandably difficult for most people. I have two friends that get super attached super quick to anyone they gently caress. They're both guys, too. Sometimes you find someone you know you love and you're both cool with loving a stranger now and again but you don't click with anyone else and it's fine but that's pretty rare.

One of those dudes tripped out and broke up with his girlfriend of 2 years because they were in seperate states on new years and she kissed someone when the ball dropped. To me that'd be 'i don't care just tell me and don't lie and sneak around.' Which she did - she called at 12:30am crying and feeling bad about it but he tripped out anyway. Too extreme imo but there's all kinds of different people. Personally I can understand wanting to kiss someone when the ball drops and everyone around you is doing it. Doesn't have to mean anything other than that :shrug:


mind the walrus posted:

You do know there are women who don't like the idea of their man getting their cock wet wherever too right?

Plus not every monogamist is some creepy misogynistic or patriarchal douchebag. Some guys just like the idea of supreme intimacy with one person and trusting to a commitment that a woman values them enough to not jump on every attractive dick she meets. It's definitely got shades of controlling and insecure behavior in there but it's not malicious unless the guy is emotionally stunted and goes all Raging Bull on her.

There's nothing wrong with monogomy and trusting relationships and I think this whole thing of trying to make it some kind of social justice to cuck men is doing a huge disservice to social issues. I always thought it was an ironic joke but apparently there's people who really are like that and it's just fuckin strange.

Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 22:05 on Sep 11, 2015

ArbitraryC
Jan 28, 2009
Pick a number, any number
Pillbug

Moridin920 posted:

nah you're just hanging out with uptight people
I don't really think so. People absolutely do judge and look down on other people for that kind of thing. I'm not saying it's right but that is a cultural aspect to monogamy, when your partner sleeps around that doesn't just reflect badly on them it also reflects badly on you, hence cuck being a meme.

a bay
Oct 14, 2014

by Lowtax

ArbitraryC posted:

I don't really think so. People absolutely do judge and look down on other people for that kind of thing.

Not me

ArbitraryC
Jan 28, 2009
Pick a number, any number
Pillbug
I mean that's good but that doesn't mean it's not a thing.

LethalGeek
Nov 4, 2009

It's pretty ho hum after 8 years. Got a house & a dog, sit around being a pair of nerds, go out once a week. Saturday nights are usually drunk game night with whomever we know can come over. Can't think of much else to add, there's not a lot of drama around here sorry GBS.

Irrational Bees
Nov 2, 2013

by Lowtax
difficult, and impossible.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006

ArbitraryC posted:

In my experience the only people who talk about monogamy are "controlling genitals" are manipulative shitstains trying to morally browbeat their partners into sexual things they're not comfortable with. It's icky.

And most poly people I've met are made up of women too flighty to want to be tied down and sad guys who have resigned themselves to her conditions as the best they deserve. It's sad. I know it's not the total of poly people though. How could it be?

ArbitraryC
Jan 28, 2009
Pick a number, any number
Pillbug
Like can you imagine a major politician in an open relationship? Would people respect obama if they knew he let other guys rail his wife. It's silly to pretend there's not a social status element to having a dedicated significant other. It absolutely does affect how people view and respect you in a monogamous culture such as ours.

Moridin920
Nov 15, 2007

by FactsAreUseless
Right but politicians have to pander to a lot of conservative uptight people.

In your 20s when everyone is aware of the situation and everyone enjoys loving and snorting blow and doing drugs it doesn't matter as much.

Besides I think you'd be surprised at how many politicians and rich people and whatever do it too, just more lowkey. They aren't picking up the random person at the gala dinner. If it's about other people's perceptions and you're in a position where that actually matters you just hide it.

WILDTURKEY101
Mar 7, 2005

Look to your left. Look to your right. Only one of you is going to pass this course.
there was a girl i was with for almost two years and as soon as she said that she wanted to "get into polyamory" i broke up with her immediately because I respect myself

ArbitraryC
Jan 28, 2009
Pick a number, any number
Pillbug

Moridin920 posted:

Right but politicians have to pander to a lot of conservative uptight people.

In your 20s when everyone is aware of the situation and everyone enjoys loving and snorting blow and doing drugs it doesn't matter as much.

That was my point though, if absolutely everyone were onboard with open stuff I could vaguely see it working, but as long as that's not the case then the people in the position to fully monopolize a single partner, (or sleep around themsevles without their partners sleeping around on them) are going to have a higher status than the people who have to share. I think this is partly why when you look at reddit boards on poly (a gold mine of fantastic e/n style posts) it's always guys that are whining about having trouble coping with their gf sleeping around, there's uneven gender standards there and they subconsciously realize being in this situation devalues them socially. It says that they aren't good enough to be one of the guys who has a dedicated girlfriend.

dad gay. so what
Feb 18, 2003

by FactsAreUseless

ArbitraryC posted:

That was my point though, if absolutely everyone were onboard with open stuff I could vaguely see it working, but as long as that's not the case then the people in the position to fully monopolize a single partner, (or sleep around themsevles without their partners sleeping around on them) are going to have a higher status than the people who have to share. I think this is partly why when you look at reddit boards on poly (a gold mine of fantastic e/n style posts) it's always guys that are whining about having trouble coping with their gf sleeping around, there's uneven gender standards there and they subconsciously realize being in this situation devalues them socially. It says that they aren't good enough to be one of the guys who has a dedicated girlfriend.

looks liek youll never be the head of a major corporation

LethalGeek
Nov 4, 2009

WILDTURKEY101 posted:

there was a girl i was with for almost two years and as soon as she said that she wanted to "get into polyamory" i broke up with her immediately because I respect myself
Good, gently caress that noise. Do it from the start or don't do it at all, that poo poo rarely...never? works.

Edit: I take that back I forget people hit 50 or so and start going gently caress It a lot more. Those you don't hear about generally though.

ArbitraryC
Jan 28, 2009
Pick a number, any number
Pillbug

LethalGeek posted:

Good, gently caress that noise. Do it from the start or don't do it at all, that poo poo rarely...never? works.

Edit: I take that back I forget people hit 50 or so and start going gently caress It a lot more. Those you don't hear about generally though.
You are a pretty chill poly person in all these threads you post in. You don't really hold it up as being better or morally superior and you agree it can easily be abusive and needs to be a thing both people are 100% onboard with from day 1.

a bay
Oct 14, 2014

by Lowtax

ArbitraryC posted:

That was my point though, if absolutely everyone were onboard with open stuff I could vaguely see it working, but as long as that's not the case then the people in the position to fully monopolize a single partner, (or sleep around themsevles without their partners sleeping around on them) are going to have a higher status than the people who have to share. I think this is partly why when you look at reddit boards on poly (a gold mine of fantastic e/n style posts) it's always guys that are whining about having trouble coping with their gf sleeping around, there's uneven gender standards there and they subconsciously realize being in this situation devalues them socially. It says that they aren't good enough to be one of the guys who has a dedicated girlfriend.

Thats kind of like the Ladder Theory

Mr. Stingly
Sep 1, 2001

Satanic cop-killing henchman with a heart of gold

ArbitraryC posted:

I don't really think so. People absolutely do judge and look down on other people for that kind of thing. I'm not saying it's right but that is a cultural aspect to monogamy, when your partner sleeps around that doesn't just reflect badly on them it also reflects badly on you, hence cuck being a meme.

They don't judge if they're broke and drunk and horny and it's 1:00am on a Thursday like Moridin is saying. They DO judge if half of them have kids and they're in their 30's and so are you. Basically if they're adults that do adult stuff. If you're in your 20's, banging anyone you can is not a big deal, in whatever configuration happens to be working (or not working). If you're attached to someone more often that anyone else, that can be your SO and meanwhile you're still hooking up on the side.

That used to be called just "sleeping around" or "being a young person" but now that everything we do has to be categorized as some sort of all-encompassing lifestyle so it can have a tag on your blog, it's getting its own Sex Kingdom. Now it has a culture and is an established vehicle for talking about extra garbage. This is fine but just going out and doing it doesn't get you followers you can monetize, so now you have to proselytize and come up with ways to inject a manufactured lifestyle into the village square discussion.

This is why the arguments in favor of it sound so half-hearted and talking-point-ish.

old-timey newspaper gal
Feb 23, 2005

Horniest Manticore posted:

oh, and it usually looks like this:


when i look at this picture i can hear a bunch of wet meat slapping together

ArbitraryC
Jan 28, 2009
Pick a number, any number
Pillbug

Mr. Stingly posted:

They don't judge if they're broke and drunk and horny and it's 1:00am on a Thursday like Moridin is saying. They DO judge if half of them have kids and they're in their 30's and so are you. Basically if they're adults that do adult stuff. If you're in your 20's, banging anyone you can is not a big deal, in whatever configuration happens to be working (or not working). If you're attached to someone more often that anyone else, that can be your SO and meanwhile you're still hooking up on the side.

That used to be called just "sleeping around" or "being a young person" but now that everything we do has to be categorized as some sort of all-encompassing lifestyle so it can have a tag on your blog, it's getting its own Sex Kingdom. Now it has a culture and is an established vehicle for talking about extra garbage. This is fine but just going out and doing it doesn't get you followers you can monetize, so now you have to proselytize and come up with ways to inject a manufactured lifestyle into the village square discussion.

This is why the arguments in favor of it sound so half-hearted and talking-point-ish.
It's not like everyone is super promiscuous in their 20s though, I only knew of like 1 open relationship in my entire social circle and people constantly made fun of the dude for it until it crashed and burned. Sure there were single people who hosed around but if you were putting titles on it it implied monogamy.

Mr. Stingly
Sep 1, 2001

Satanic cop-killing henchman with a heart of gold

ArbitraryC posted:

It's not like everyone is super promiscuous in their 20s though, I only knew of like 1 open relationship in my entire social circle and people constantly made fun of the dude for it until it crashed and burned. Sure there were single people who hosed around but if you were putting titles on it it implied monogamy.

Polyamorous implies promiscuity. If you're not promiscuous you aren't poly.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006

a bay posted:

Thats kind of like the Ladder Theory

It really isn't and I'd be the first to jump on some retardation like that. It's an easily abused notion but abstracted social status is in-fact a thing that's going to matter if you want to be a part of larger society.

serious norman
Dec 13, 2007

im pickle rick!!!!
its gay

a bay
Oct 14, 2014

by Lowtax

mind the walrus posted:

It really isn't

It kind of is dude

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006

a bay posted:

It kind of is dude

Oh ok.

No wait, it really isn't.

Moridin920
Nov 15, 2007

by FactsAreUseless

ArbitraryC posted:

That was my point though, if absolutely everyone were onboard with open stuff I could vaguely see it working, but as long as that's not the case then the people in the position to fully monopolize a single partner, (or sleep around themsevles without their partners sleeping around on them) are going to have a higher status than the people who have to share. I think this is partly why when you look at reddit boards on poly (a gold mine of fantastic e/n style posts) it's always guys that are whining about having trouble coping with their gf sleeping around, there's uneven gender standards there and they subconsciously realize being in this situation devalues them socially. It says that they aren't good enough to be one of the guys who has a dedicated girlfriend.

Well yeah alright.

I have two points:

- it's not necessarily the gf loving other people that is low status, it's the gf loving other people and ignoring you while you act like a doormat about it and secretly hate it and feel like poo poo that makes you seem low status

- don't give a poo poo about if random dils think you are high status or not. That kind of thinking leads to PUA poo poo. Just be awesome.

Also, a lot of those people are loving crazy people, definitely. Do that poo poo at your own caution. I do want to make the slight distinction again though between people who clearly glom on to a girl and watch her gently caress around while she talks about poly this and poly that and people who are happy with each other and now and again they gently caress someone else just for kicks.

LethalGeek
Nov 4, 2009

ArbitraryC posted:

You are a pretty chill poly person in all these threads you post in. You don't really hold it up as being better or morally superior and you agree it can easily be abusive and needs to be a thing both people are 100% onboard with from day 1.
I totally used to be that guy then I looked around at the crowd and went holy poo poo look at these gently caress ups. People who aren't gently caress ups and poly are pretty much what you or whomever has been saying as far as they have to keep it quiet. I know a teacher who would get fired immediately due to some morals clause in her contract if the school found out she had a husband and GF. That said they're still rare it's mostly a lot of 20/30 somethings who don't have their heads on right and can't just sleep around like normal people who don't want a serious relationship. The other quiet group no one hears about, at least in my experience, is middle aged divorcees. After 20 years of a poo poo marriage they come out of that mess and run into someone like me and go gently caress it, I can have my cake and eat it too. If you ask them if they're poly they'd say no.

I don't consider myself poly, I'm just a slutty dude who found someone who equally doesn't care. Non-monogamous? idk.

a bay
Oct 14, 2014

by Lowtax

mind the walrus posted:

Oh ok.

No wait, it really isn't.

I think your maybe not clear on what the Ladder Theory is but Google is your friend

tuyop
Sep 15, 2006

Every second that we're not growing BASIL is a second wasted

Fun Shoe

ArbitraryC posted:

That was my point though, if absolutely everyone were onboard with open stuff I could vaguely see it working, but as long as that's not the case then the people in the position to fully monopolize a single partner, (or sleep around themsevles without their partners sleeping around on them) are going to have a higher status than the people who have to share. I think this is partly why when you look at reddit boards on poly (a gold mine of fantastic e/n style posts) it's always guys that are whining about having trouble coping with their gf sleeping around, there's uneven gender standards there and they subconsciously realize being in this situation devalues them socially. It says that they aren't good enough to be one of the guys who has a dedicated girlfriend.

Status only matters if you care. You probably shouldn't care about that poo poo.

ArbitraryC posted:

In my experience the only people who talk about monogamy are "controlling genitals" are manipulative shitstains trying to morally browbeat their partners into sexual things they're not comfortable with. It's icky.

I don't know what this means.

WobblySausage posted:

See I can see this. I could do it without the emotional attachment (and toothbrush sharing).

Yeah, we're incredibly attached to each other. I love my wife, it's weird to think I could love her only if she doesn't love someone else. Though I've found that my perspective is a bit stoic and odd. Her love for me and sexual/emotional interactions with others have pretty much nothing to do with my love for her (and vice versa, I can be in love with someone else and in love with my wife too, why not?). I can't control those things and wanting to would be a pretty lovely way to live, so I don't want to. I can control whether I'm a good spouse, and we're both completely transparent about what that means to us so we have a healthy, loving, chill, open relationship. It's really not a big deal and only comes up when a friend brings up some kind of baffling drama about their spouse being unfaithful and neither of us can really understand why they should care, since they can't control it.

If we're talking economics, then it's sticky because there are only so many hours in the day and it takes a ton of personal emotional work to be comfortable when your partner spends those hours with someone else. But I recently took a week driving around and surfing with a girl and my wife had to stay home because she had work. She missed me but wasn't resentful because she knows how our relationship is. I didn't care when she hung out with some guy friends in Montreal for awhile either, in a similar situation.

Edit: these situations would probably be especially inflammatory because we share bank accounts, so it's easy to imagine someone getting really bitter about the other spending our money on romantic vacations with other people.

tuyop fucked around with this message at 22:52 on Sep 11, 2015

Moridin920
Nov 15, 2007

by FactsAreUseless

ArbitraryC posted:

It's not like everyone is super promiscuous in their 20s though, I only knew of like 1 open relationship in my entire social circle and people constantly made fun of the dude for it until it crashed and burned. Sure there were single people who hosed around but if you were putting titles on it it implied monogamy.

Okay but meanwhile in my friend group basically everyone has banged each other at one point or another regardless of which one they happened to be dating at the time and no one cares.

People are different.

ArbitraryC
Jan 28, 2009
Pick a number, any number
Pillbug

Moridin920 posted:

Well yeah alright.

I have two points:

- it's not necessarily the gf loving other people that is low status, it's the gf loving other people and ignoring you while you act like a doormat about it and secretly hate it and feel like poo poo that makes you seem low status

- don't give a poo poo about if random dils think you are high status or not. That kind of thinking leads to PUA poo poo. Just be awesome.

Also, a lot of those people are loving crazy people, definitely. Do that poo poo at your own caution. I do want to make the slight distinction again though between people who clearly glom on to a girl and watch her gently caress around while she talks about poly this and poly that and people who are happy with each other and now and again they gently caress someone else just for kicks.
We've been telling depressed people to stop caring what other people think and just be themselves for pretty much forever but the brain sadly doesn't work that way. Pretty much everyone craves external validation. I'm not saying I necessarily agree with that particular mindset, particularly since due to skewed gender standards it kind of has a skeevy ownership undertone, but you can't just logic yourself into being okay with open relationships due to a variety of elements including social pressure.

If you're someone like lethal who just doesn't give a gently caress that's great, but it's not something I think most people would be capable of in a monogamous culture such as the US.

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Moridin920
Nov 15, 2007

by FactsAreUseless
The biggest thing is trust and communication. If you don't like how the relationship is structured or how certain things are going you should say something about it.

Otherwise I don't think there's really inherently anything wrong with whatever configuration works for you and everyone involved unless you want to be on the 'well 2 people raising a kid is a good family unit' but that's a fairly new concept anyway nor does it apply to people not trying to have a family.

ArbitraryC posted:

We've been telling depressed people to stop caring what other people think and just be themselves for pretty much forever but the brain sadly doesn't work that way. Pretty much everyone craves external validation. I'm not saying I necessarily agree with that particular mindset, particularly since due to skewed gender standards it kind of has a skeevy ownership undertone, but you can't just logic yourself into being okay with open relationships due to a variety of elements including social pressure.

If you're someone like lethal who just doesn't give a gently caress that's great, but it's not something I think most people would be capable of in a monogamous culture such as the US.

That's fine but maybe the random one night stand is some people's form of external validation. Maybe they like to know they are still attractive and it's not just their loving wife telling them that as they get old and ugly. Then after that insecurity is out of their system, they are fine.

I'm not saying you can logic yourself into feeling a certain way, I'm just saying for some people feelings come up in different ways or not as strongly. Like in my earlier example when my friend was telling me about his girlfriend kissing someone else on new years eve, he was super mad and I kept waiting for him to say 'and then she banged the kid right there and everyone saw and said I had a tiny dick!' but no he was just super pissed about the kiss. I didn't get it. I still don't. I get jealous and feel envy, but about different things.

Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 22:54 on Sep 11, 2015

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