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MakeWarHarmlesser
Jun 29, 2009

ZiegeDame posted:

The game does not allow you to just let Asgore kill you and take your soul.
You can let Asgore kill you and then not reload your save. I'd assume he'd probably take the souls and head to the surface if events played out like that. (Also probably restarting the humans/monsters war in the process)

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Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!
I'm not sure why one would think that a game referencing classic NES and SNES rpgs would be targetted at thirteen year olds, and why this game in particular (and not, say, Fallout 4 which takes an old timey game franchise, hollows it out and injects it full of nothing but modern open world collect-and-craft gaming conventions) would suddenly make him feel old and viscerally repulsed. It's just a weird criticism.

I mean, seriously, in the age of cross-genre remakes and games adorned with microtransactions and progression mechanics, it's *Undertale* that is showing insufficient reverence?

Fangz fucked around with this message at 02:33 on Jan 5, 2016

Jen X
Sep 29, 2014

To bring light to the darkness, whether that darkness be ignorance, injustice, apathy, or stagnation.

MakeWarHarmlesser posted:

You can let Asgore kill you and then not reload your save. I'd assume he'd probably take the souls and head to the surface if events played out like that. (Also probably restarting the humans/monsters war in the process)

You can, but I do think that adding two alternate endings (stay in the ruins, let Asgore take your soul) would be nice.

I'm sure someone's already justified the lack of that stuff as part of the deep themes of undertale, but really, I do think that they should exist. For much the same reasons that the Genocide and Pacifist runs exist, actually: the "choice" (whether explicitly "yes/no" or implicit, as in continuing on the path the game forces you on) is meaningless without knowing the alternative.

Raserys
Aug 22, 2011

IT'S YA BOY

GeneX posted:

You can, but I do think that adding two alternate endings (stay in the ruins, let Asgore take your soul) would be nice.

The former, only if you have to wait in real-time until Frisk dies of old age.

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

I mean you can choose to stop playing the game if you like. But due to your power you have no reason to ever settle for a loss.

Schwarzwald
Jul 27, 2004

Don't Blink

YES bread posted:

the game still lets you kill papyrus. there are no "but thou must" moments

I can think of one: when Toriel tells you to go back upstairs and let her destroy the way out.

You actual can do that, "but thou must" eventually change your mind and challenge her.

Endings
Jan 17, 2012

Close your eyes...

GeneX posted:

You can, but I do think that adding two alternate endings (stay in the ruins, let Asgore take your soul) would be nice.

I'm sure someone's already justified the lack of that stuff as part of the deep themes of undertale, but really, I do think that they should exist. For much the same reasons that the Genocide and Pacifist runs exist, actually: the "choice" (whether explicitly "yes/no" or implicit, as in continuing on the path the game forces you on) is meaningless without knowing the alternative.

Eeeh. I could see a cute Golden Sun-Esque stay in the ruins option that gave you maybe a short cutscene and a non-standard game over, but as far as the other, Flowey has absolutely no reason to let Asgore live, given what he's trying to push you towards.

Vargatron
Apr 19, 2008

MRAZZLE DAZZLE


Schwarzwald posted:

I can think of one: when Toriel tells you to go back upstairs and let her destroy the way out.

You actual can do that, "but thou must" eventually change your mind and challenge her.

The only winning move is to never play...

Blackula Vs. Tarantula
Jul 6, 2005

😤I am NOT Captain_Redbeard🧔
nvm the thread has moved on i think

Blackula Vs. Tarantula fucked around with this message at 02:51 on Jan 5, 2016

Jen X
Sep 29, 2014

To bring light to the darkness, whether that darkness be ignorance, injustice, apathy, or stagnation.

Endings posted:

Eeeh. I could see a cute Golden Sun-Esque stay in the ruins option that gave you maybe a short cutscene and a non-standard game over, but as far as the other, Flowey has absolutely no reason to let Asgore live, given what he's trying to push you towards.

Good point; that's a reveal best left to actually winning against Asgore first.

But I will maintain that a way to stay in the ruins would be nice, not least because it gives Flowey more ammunition against you.

YES bread
Jun 16, 2006

Schwarzwald posted:

I can think of one: when Toriel tells you to go back upstairs and let her destroy the way out.

You actual can do that, "but thou must" eventually change your mind and challenge her.
this doesn't work because the game never tries to give you the illusion that you actually can stay with Toriel. of course you have to do specific things to advance the game, "but thou must" means specifically giving you an option that ends up being fake. if you try to extrapolate it beyond that the concept completely loses its meaning and suddenly I'm having the most retarded conversation in the thread

YES bread fucked around with this message at 02:58 on Jan 5, 2016

scamtank
Feb 24, 2011

my desire to just be a FUCKING IDIOT all day long is rapidly overtaking my ability to FUNCTION

i suspect that means i'm MENTALLY ILL


look at this dork, doing justice to undyne's facial contortions and poo poo



and since genocide spoilers are still something like a thing, I suppose Σ⊙౪⊙)  (・ ิω▼彡乚


scamtank fucked around with this message at 03:06 on Jan 5, 2016

Jen X
Sep 29, 2014

To bring light to the darkness, whether that darkness be ignorance, injustice, apathy, or stagnation.
The point is that the game seems to offer a choice there, and it doesn't actually offer that choice.

There are enough people who listened to Toriel and decided to go upstairs and sleep until the ruins were sealed off (like, er, me) that it's fair to say that there was an implicit choice at least being presented, and it's the fact that no matter what you do, you have to leave, that is effectively the same thing as an explicit "choose "B: no", BUT THOU MUST, choose "B: no" again, BUT THOU MUST, etc." It's far less egregious, certainly, but the same active illusion of choice is present.

Abyssal Squid
Jul 24, 2003



[X]

MakeWarHarmlesser
Jun 29, 2009

GeneX posted:

You can, but I do think that adding two alternate endings (stay in the ruins, let Asgore take your soul) would be nice.
Yeah it would've been cool if, after dying to Asgore for the first time, you got a cutscene of him opening the barrier. Something like "but the future refused to change" from chrono trigger.

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

I don't think anything happens after you die. Time resets.

Roland Jones
Aug 18, 2011

by Nyc_Tattoo
Eh, the game is always from your perspective, no cutscenes besides the opening and true pacifist ending, so suddenly breaking that would be odd. Personally, I won't hold not having a "you died" ending against a game.

Glazius
Jul 22, 2007

Hail all those who are able,
any mouse can,
any mouse will,
but the Guard prevail.

Clapping Larry

Magitek posted:

When I first encountered Alphys in my Undertale playthrough, I was reminded of that guy. Her lines are obviously video game-ey and going for laughs, but the tone seemed like something resembling an actual friend. So when I read that Alphys example you posted, I just thought "Wait, isn't that an example of the 'sincerity' people often praise Undertale for? Is THAT 'DRI'?" It turns out that what I thought was a genuine positive in the game's favor was actually a cardinal sin. I guess??

DRI is a thing that only exists if you believe there are certain reactions that only the audience can have, and if you believe there are certain elements that exist only to provoke audience reactions.

Like, if you were in a schlocky office-politics comedy, your friend who knows too many facts about politics would not realize that he was getting a little too into politics, and nobody would ever try to confront him about it, because that's his schtick, and you don't just undermine somebody's schtick. From the perspective of the comedy, your friend is engaging in Double Reverse Irony.

But you're not trying to ironically detach yourself from your own life, so your friend is just a normal person doing some self-assessment and having a believable reaction, and someone who acted like a character from a schlocky office-politics comedy would seem a little bit... fake, right?

Macaluso
Sep 23, 2005

I HATE THAT HEDGEHOG, BROTHER!

The part during the pacifist ending where you are save the souls of your friends. When you get Undyne to come back by smiling, and it's like "you flash a big smile, just like you know she likes to do! Suddenly, the memories come flooding back!" and she comes back with that huge Undyne smile. That was one of the most :unsmith: moments in the game to me

YES bread
Jun 16, 2006

GeneX posted:

The point is that the game seems to offer a choice there, and it doesn't actually offer that choice.

yes this exactly dude. it doesn't actually offer the choice, so it is not a But Thou Must. the entire reason the term came about as a thing is events in jprgs where you are explicitly given a option that the game then disregards

come ooooon

Morpheus
Apr 18, 2008

My favourite little monsters
There's a lot of discussion going on about opinions other people have about this game, but I just want to say that I played and beat it in one sitting, had a great time (with some slow points)and was thoroughly warmed by the ending, which made me really want to see and spend some time with my friends afterwards.

I'm usually one to roll my eyes whenever a game talks about the power of friendship and all that poo poo, but Undertale does it so earnestly.

ThisIsACoolGuy
Nov 2, 2010

Shaped like a friend

ZiegeDame
Aug 21, 2005

YUKIMURAAAA!

Endings posted:

Eeeh. I could see a cute Golden Sun-Esque stay in the ruins option that gave you maybe a short cutscene and a non-standard game over, but as far as the other, Flowey has absolutely no reason to let Asgore live, given what he's trying to push you towards.

Yeah but if Flowey was capable of killing Asgore without you weakening him first, wouldn't he have done that already?

CJacobs
Apr 17, 2011

Reach for the moon!

The wingdings says "ahhhh" :3:

Jen X
Sep 29, 2014

To bring light to the darkness, whether that darkness be ignorance, injustice, apathy, or stagnation.

I love this.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010


Ignore my posts!
I'm aggressively wrong about everything!

ZiegeDame posted:

Yeah but if Flowey was capable of killing Asgore without you weakening him first, wouldn't he have done that already?

I'm not sure where exactly they get this info, probably from the genocide ending, but according to the wiki apparently Flowey has killed Asgore, as well as basically everyone else, in previous timelines. He just hasn't done it this time.


And just checking, this is fanart of sorts, right? I just want to be sure, since I'm vaguely planning an article on W.D. Gaster for my blog about cut content.

Mountaineer
Aug 29, 2008

Imagine a rod breaking on a robot face - forever

ZiegeDame posted:

Yeah but if Flowey was capable of killing Asgore without you weakening him first, wouldn't he have done that already?

I think Flowey can and probably has killed Asgore. The problem was Flowey could never find the human souls. Asgore problem keeps them in a dimensional pocket he only opens when there's another human to kill.

Also that's some great Undyne fan art. Sadly, it's missing her reaction when she learns that anime is not real.

ThisIsACoolGuy
Nov 2, 2010

Shaped like a friend

Cleretic posted:

And just checking, this is fanart of sorts, right? I just want to be sure, since I'm vaguely planning an article on W.D. Gaster for my blog about cut content.

Yup. Click for the source

scamtank
Feb 24, 2011

my desire to just be a FUCKING IDIOT all day long is rapidly overtaking my ability to FUNCTION

i suspect that means i'm MENTALLY ILL


well pluh

ThisIsACoolGuy
Nov 2, 2010

Shaped like a friend

Also didn't see this posted so hey

[x]

cmykJester
Feb 16, 2011

by Nyc_Tattoo

ThisIsACoolGuy posted:

Also didn't see this posted so hey

[x]

Man I'd love to see a full game that looked like that.

Mercedes Colomar
Nov 1, 2008

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Have you played/heard of the Lucasarts Classic, Grim Fandango? It's got a similar, though blockier, aesthetic. And it stars a dashing rogue of a skeleton, whose name escapes me.

Incoherence
May 22, 2004

POYO AND TEAR

Macaluso posted:

The part during the pacifist ending where you are save the souls of your friends. When you get Undyne to come back by smiling, and it's like "you flash a big smile, just like you know she likes to do! Suddenly, the memories come flooding back!" and she comes back with that huge Undyne smile. That was one of the most :unsmith: moments in the game to me
I think during those sections, you can just pick any three things and it'll SAVE them. It's just a question of which memories you want to evoke (and which one you want to talk to, if there are two).

Roland Jones
Aug 18, 2011

by Nyc_Tattoo

Incoherence posted:

I think during those sections, you can just pick any three things and it'll SAVE them. It's just a question of which memories you want to evoke (and which one you want to talk to, if there are two).

Basically, except if there are two it'll take four actions, not two.

Lurdiak
Feb 26, 2006

I believe in a universe that doesn't care, and people that do.


TGLT posted:

Sure, but unless you're weird and really wanna see sad anime fish pixels, it's the content that's the deterrent and the fights that are the incentive. Or you're just really obsessed with 100% completing a game and then it's all deterrent I suppose.

I just wanted to see how the story unfolds, no one told me there'd be new fights. It's really weird to me that anyone would go through a genocide run just to fight Sans.

Abyssal Squid posted:


Now here's a water sausage:

[X]

His teeth don't look like that. Tumblr, do you know his teeth don't look like that? Because they don't.

Glazius
Jul 22, 2007

Hail all those who are able,
any mouse can,
any mouse will,
but the Guard prevail.

Clapping Larry

GeneX posted:

You can, but I do think that adding two alternate endings (stay in the ruins, let Asgore take your soul) would be nice.

Crucially, though, to do both you'd have to give up the power of DETERMINATION. Which is the only reason you can play the game in the first place.

Though maybe that's just me thinking far too meta.

distactedOne
Oct 29, 2012

YES bread posted:

yes this exactly dude. it doesn't actually offer the choice, so it is not a But Thou Must. the entire reason the term came about as a thing is events in jprgs where you are explicitly given a option that the game then disregards

come ooooon

"Choice" here meaning "decision of some kind", not "yes/no dialogue box precisely".

I know you're trying very hard to pretend your argument isn't about the term "But Thou Must" as defined on tvtropes dot org but it clearly is and that web site also has a thing called "tropes are flexible", which this whole discussion falls very neatly into.

buffybot
Nov 7, 2002

Lurdiak posted:

I just wanted to see how the story unfolds, no one told me there'd be new fights. It's really weird to me that anyone would go through a genocide run just to fight Sans.

I don't know, this is pretty much the only reason why I did a genocide run. The story was a bonus as well as all the gut punches along the way. :smithicide:

Leroy Dennui
Aug 9, 2014

Gina McCarthy made us gay,
but we would not have met
had Biden not dropped his cones
:gaysper::frogbon:
What's the exact trigger for the True Pacifist ending corruption? I hit Alt-Enter to unfullscreen instead of F4 so I accidentally answered "No" to Chara at the end of my Genocide run, but I closed the window before they could finish speaking and kill me; I also was able to start up the game normally afterwards and load up from my save before Sans.

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cmykJester
Feb 16, 2011

by Nyc_Tattoo

Manuel Calavera posted:

Have you played/heard of the Lucasarts Classic, Grim Fandango? It's got a similar, though blockier, aesthetic. And it stars a dashing rogue of a skeleton, whose name escapes me.

Yeah I've played Grim Fandango. I feel like the remastered stuff wasn't that impressive and played with the original graphics most of the time. Maybe I should try the commentary of that game.

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