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MysticalMachineGun
Apr 5, 2005

Jerusalem posted:

Edit: I'm sorry to keep on going on about this, but the idea of,"So ALL confession dials are actually personal torture devices that the Time Lords make for themselves?" strikes me as the same kind of thinking as,"There was a spike trap under that pile of leaves, why do humans hide spike traps under ALL piles of leaves in the world?"

Just speculating :) The Doctor's confession dial is the only one we've encountered, so it may even be one of a kind. Or like I said, it might be meant for convicted criminals on the galactic equivalent of death row. We don't know how he got it, after all, just that it exists and Missy wanted it.

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CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014

A true renaissance man


I'm watching The Chase / Journey Into Terror right now and the idea of a "custom scary house" seems to anticipate what happened in that confession dial somehow. Not sure if there's any connections that can (or should) be drawn from it, but :shrug: It's just interesting to me I guess given all of the speculation that's happening.

And More
Jun 19, 2013

How far, Doctor?
How long have you lived?

CobiWann posted:

I didn’t think that the Doctor was scared of the Hybrid killing him – he was scared of the Hybrid and what it would become in the grand scheme of things, kind of that momentary panic when you hear a gunshot in the distance before realizing its hunting season. Or realizing it’s a lot closer than you originally thought it was.

That still seems like a pretty wild leap in logic considering it's not really supported by the way the episode presents the Doctor's statements. You kind of treat it as fact in your review. :shrug:

AndyElusive
Jan 7, 2007

Something I've been wondering about came up when a friend was talking about this the other day and it made me ponder...when 12 closes his eyes can he hear the other incarnations yacking to him? Does The Doctor ever deal with multiple personality disorder in anyway? It seemed like when he talked to himself in Mummy on the Orient Express there was a little bit of 4 there conversing with him...

I mean, yeah I get how they're all The Doctor, but they're still different personalities...

Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003
Probation
Can't post for 10 years!

CobiWann posted:

I heard it's harder to put together than the last story in The Trial of a Time Lord. How is it?

I stand by my assessment that the first set is pretty much rear end. Also the LEGO Daleks look like poo poo compared to the CB Daleks.

Kithkar
Apr 23, 2011

I'm gonna RENOVATE your ass!

2house2fly posted:

Different Doctor different rules, probably. 11 never seemed that upset about dying.

11 went out the same way he came in (and lived): as a goddamn hyped up nerd rockstar.

CobiWann
Oct 21, 2009

Have fun!

And More posted:

That still seems like a pretty wild leap in logic considering it's not really supported by the way the episode presents the Doctor's statements. You kind of treat it as fact in your review. :shrug:

You're probably right and I read too much into things or drew a wild conclusion. It wouldn't be the first time I put 1, 2 and 3 together and came up with 5.

After The War
Apr 12, 2005

to all of my Architects
let me be traitor

Murderion posted:

You don't?

Mega Man corroborates that spike traps are, in fact, everywhere.

Intrepid00
Nov 10, 2003

I'm tired of the PM’s asking if I actually poisoned kittens, instead look at these boobies.

EricFate posted:

This is true.

But I think we're all forgetting that she was not the ONLY hybrid who was created via that process. There is a third option.

Well, River Song is making an appearance this season and the Doctor does lie. Also there are 4 options. Don't forget about Donna.

Intrepid00 fucked around with this message at 03:47 on Dec 2, 2015

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009

AndyElusive posted:

Something I've been wondering about came up when a friend was talking about this the other day and it made me ponder...when 12 closes his eyes can he hear the other incarnations yacking to him? Does The Doctor ever deal with multiple personality disorder in anyway? It seemed like when he talked to himself in Mummy on the Orient Express there was a little bit of 4 there conversing with him...

I mean, yeah I get how they're all The Doctor, but they're still different personalities...

This is actually the big gimmick of the current villain for the Eighth Doctor audios, a Time Lord that switches between all his personas. And some of the books have had the implication that the Doctor can indeed consult with his past selves in some way.

NowonSA
Jul 19, 2013

I am the sexiest poster in the world!
Man, you're all going to feel so SLOW-witted when Sam Swift the Quick is the Hybrid :smug:.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?



Short Synopsis: If only the Doctor understood the power.... of the Dark SideFlame!

Long Synopsis: The 7th Doctor and Ace travel to pick up Bernice Summerfield, and run headfirst into the rebirth of a dark cult dedicated to destroying all the light in the universe. A robot with an identity crisis really moves the Doctor, Bernice has a change of mind, and Ace plays the highest stakes game of Hide 'n' Seek in history.

What's Good:
  • The wrap-up. Not the resolution, but the wrap up of the story is.... tidy. The story finishes, and every question raised and every little potential loose end feels like it has been addressed and settled. Not necessarily satisfactorily, but an effort has been made to avoid the frequent pitfall of Big Finish trying to leave things open either for potential sequels or because Joseph Lidsters gotta Joseph Lidster. Despite the fact that author would later reuse the cult in another story he wrote (for the Bernice range of audios), he at least seemed to be aware that for the benefit of this story there should be no hanging threads or unanswered questions. So the wrap-up answers everything, even if this consists primarily of the Doctor just sitting there answering a barrage of questions from Ace. Even the slight temporal paradox the Doctor creates to take care of things is addressed, and is treated in a playful way that endears the listener to the Doctor.

  • Avoiding ONE cliche. This is a story filled with a number of cliches, but thankfully it avoids one of the more aggravating ones - the "remember who you are!" speech. Characters - including in the main cast - get taken control of and do horrible things, but at no point does the Doctor or Ace or anybody else stand up and say,"No, this isn't you, remember who you are!" enabling the victim to suddenly stop, shake their head and fight off the control. Instead, the mind control is shown to be terrifyingly effective as it should be to have impact - it removes the agency of the characters it affects entirely. By making it as complete as it is, it warrants the fear and rage the others feel to see their friends controlled, and makes the stakes the story plays with actually feel justified.

What's Not:

  • The dark burning flaming fire of dark burning in the burning darkness of the fiery dark of the burning darkness of the dark. With a title like The Dark Flame it is perhaps no surprise that it involves a lot of talk about.... THE DARK! But boy howdy is it over-used, and the phrasing and themes both bring to mind nothing quite so much as a Goth teenager writing Star Wars fanfiction about the Sith. At one point the bad guy almost straight up says,"The Dark Side is stronger, Doctor, you know this to be true!" and it felt like Ian McDiarmid had wandered on set to throw in some Palpatine-isms. An evil Dark Lord, corrupt scientists, a slightly effete robot, a plan to create a "black light" energy source powerful enough to destroy the universe when harnessed by said Dark Lord.... it reads like something Kevin J. Anderson might have written for a terrible Star Wars novel.

  • The lack of character variety. Almost every supporting character is effectively the SAME character. They all say the same things, act the same way, the males even all sound alike with the same raspy, smug "evil" voice. A reason IS kinda given for this, as it turns out the minds of the majority of the supporting cast are completely buried, and they're basically puppets for one malignant intelligence controlling them all at once and just making them hold conversations for the purpose of either hiding from or openly mocking the heroes. But even with an explanation, the generic template of the majority of the cast makes for rather uninspired listening. One of the few unique characters is a simpering one who moans and groans for 90% of their "screen" time. The rest all either die, sound the same, or are the main cast.

  • Undercutting the threat. Over and over again the stakes of the piece are laid out for the listener - if the Dark Lord succeeds in their scheme, the best-case scenario for the universe is slavery and mental domination, and the worst case is the utter destruction of everything. The bad guy mocks the Doctor for being "small" compared to his power, and the Doctor sells the idea that this guy is a big deal threat who could actually mentally dominate and enslave him. But then, well before the actual resolution, we learn that the Doctor and Ace are rather casually enacting their own plan and that the Doctor has just been playing along with the baddy but was really in complete control all along. If this moment had come at the appropriate moment, it could have served well to tear down the bad guy at the height of his power and put him in his place in a cathartic way. But it comes too early, and the story continues along for just a little too long while still expecting the listener to take them seriously as a threat.

  • Fast talking. There is a LOT of fast and breathless talking in this story, and it doesn't feel natural at all. Bernice is mostly guilty of just constantly quipping in the "I want to cargo-cult Joss Whedon" fashion, but Ace and the Doctor do a lot of running around shouting rapid exposition at themselves and other characters. It feels like a script designed to be read and not performed (in other words, a book!), and considering this is yet another exploration of the "universe" of the Virgin New Adventures range of Doctor Who novels that is perhaps not entirely surprising. The writer seems to have the voice for the characters in written form only, and hasn't quite figured out how to put it together for an audio.

Final Thoughts:

The Dark Flame is actually a perfectly listenable story, but all the little things add up to make it sound worse than it actually was. It's not bad, but it's not particularly good either, and it's biggest issue is that it feels like a barely translated novel turned into a rough audio script. The characterization of Ace in particular just feels off to me, because it's written around the New Adventures version of the character, with all the baggage that brings with it. Embarrassing in parts, particular when it starts going on about THE DARK, the story at least makes a solid attempt to wrap everything up in a neat package. By trying to serve both the New Adventures and Big Finish masters, it serves none. It is laudable that Big Finish didn't just throw that period of the Wilderness Years under the bus once they got the official license to produce new Doctor Who - much like the revival didn't throw Big Finish under the bus - but the way the NA went clearly doesn't mesh with Big Finish's ideas. This is not a story I'd recommend listening to, but also not one I'd recommend avoiding. It's just kind of.... it's just there, an utterly unremarkable story that you can listen to or not, and it probably won't make any difference one way or another :shrug:

Mind Loving Owl
Sep 5, 2012

The regeneration is failing! Hooooo...

Jerusalem posted:

Well anything is always possible, but when the concept of a confession dial is first introduced to us, it's explicitly stated to be the Time Lord version of a Last Will and Testament, and something to be delivered to the owner's closest friend on the owner's last day.

I mean sure it's the Master who tells us all this, and we could end up learning all kinds of new information in the next episode that states that there is no such thing as a confession dial anyway or something. But I see absolutely no reason to assume that generally speaking a Confession Dial is meant to be by default a personal torture device carried around by Time Lords, which makes no sense at all. Occam's razor dictates that this particular "confession dial" is far more likely to be exactly what this episode made it out be, a trap for the Doctor disguised as something entirely different.

Actually, wasn't the confession dial programmed to find the Master upon the Doctor's death? Seems like there's a perfectly good reason for this particular dial to work like that.

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


echoplex posted:

I was on board for the first two series but there's only really so much "Aha! I knew it all along, you simpering cretins, especially you in the audience" one can take.

:ssh: Don't tell your boss you said that!

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004


Grimey Drawer
This episode was loving great but man, how has this show not fixed its problems with sound mixing in ten whole years. This episode had some truly fantastic music ruined by either the arrangement being too bombastic or just the music itself being too loud in the mix.

LividLiquid
Apr 13, 2002

Escobarbarian posted:

This episode was loving great but man, how has this show not fixed its problems with sound mixing in ten whole years. This episode had some truly fantastic music ruined by either the arrangement being too bombastic or just the music itself being too loud in the mix.
How many devices have you used to view the episodes? I have this problem on my television, but not on my computer.

A lot of televisions these days post-process the audio and video without any way of shutting that off. Even "normal" mode, in many cases, screws with the audio.

Filmmakers are kind of furious about TV manufacturers between this and upconverting to 48FPS with predictive frames, making everything look like 1980s soap operas.

Davros1
Jul 19, 2007

You've got to admit, you are kind of implausible



Jerusalem posted:



Short Synopsis: If only the Doctor understood the power.... of the Dark SideFlame!


It's a whole lot better than the previous, Doctor, Ace, and and Benny story "The Shadow of the Scourge:, so it at least has that going for it. It's actually the only time Benny's not written as the ultimate Mary Sue.

primaltrash
Feb 11, 2008

(Thought-ful Croak)

Hi, I've enjoyed reading your short stories off and on for several years now. Welp see you later.

Barry Foster
Dec 24, 2007

What is going wrong with that one (face is longer than it should be)

Jerusalem posted:

[*] Avoiding ONE cliche. This is a story filled with a number of cliches, but thankfully it avoids one of the more aggravating ones - the "remember who you are!" speech. Characters - including in the main cast - get taken control of and do horrible things, but at no point does the Doctor or Ace or anybody else stand up and say,"No, this isn't you, remember who you are!" enabling the victim to suddenly stop, shake their head and fight off the control. Instead, the mind control is shown to be terrifyingly effective as it should be to have impact - it removes the agency of the characters it affects entirely. By making it as complete as it is, it warrants the fear and rage the others feel to see their friends controlled, and makes the stakes the story plays with actually feel justified.
[/list]

Apropos of nothing else, I hate this cliche more than almost any other I can think of.

qntm
Jun 17, 2009

armoredgorilla posted:

Hi, I've enjoyed reading your short stories off and on for several years now. Welp see you later.

Thank you.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010


Ignore my posts!
I'm aggressively wrong about everything!

Barry Foster posted:

Apropos of nothing else, I hate this cliche more than almost any other I can think of.

I think Jessica Jones is about the only time I've ever seen that cliche done in a way that arguably worked. And that's mostly because it's not put into play as an attempt to break them out during it, but rather more as an attempt to ease and explain to the victim after the fact.

That show is really good, by the way. I was mostly coming in to see David Tennant play the villain, and that's a weirdly perfect way to approach it. He plays Killgrave so close to how he played Ten that it has to be a deliberate choice, and it adds a hell of a lot more to the experience than you'd think it would.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

Davros1 posted:

It's a whole lot better than the previous, Doctor, Ace, and and Benny story "The Shadow of the Scourge:, so it at least has that going for it. It's actually the only time Benny's not written as the ultimate Mary Sue.

Yeah, it is definitely better than Shadow of the Scourge, though to be fair that is damning with faint praise.

To people who were familiar with the trio from the books from back before Big Finish and then the revival came along, are the stories any better for at least having a context to put them into? Or do they not work even then?

Mind Loving Owl
Sep 5, 2012

The regeneration is failing! Hooooo...
So, what the Hell was that Time Tot (Timepole?) doing in the middle of the desert? Do the Time Lords just have child sentries stationed across the planet in case the Doctor makes a dramatic entrance?

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."

Mind Loving Owl posted:

So, what the Hell was that Time Tot (Timepole?) doing in the middle of the desert? Do the Time Lords just have child sentries stationed across the planet in case the Doctor makes a dramatic entrance?

Outsiders live outside the cities. Hell, even the Doctor talked about growing up in a house halfway up a mountain.

Picklepuss
Jul 12, 2002

Mind Loving Owl posted:

So, what the Hell was that Time Tot (Timepole?) doing in the middle of the desert? Do the Time Lords just have child sentries stationed across the planet in case the Doctor makes a dramatic entrance?
Judging from The Magician's Apprentice the Kaled Kids didn't stay in their domes like they ought to. I suppose I, Davros would have gone much differently if Lady Calcula had let little Davros wander to and fro across Skaro's battlefields.

ThaGhettoJew
Jul 4, 2003

The world is a ghetto

Mind Loving Owl posted:

So, what the Hell was that Time Tot (Timepole?) doing in the middle of the desert? Do the Time Lords just have child sentries stationed across the planet in case the Doctor makes a dramatic entrance?

He was just a short hike outside of that bubbletown after all. And we only see that far in a couple directions, so could be the kid was just out on a walk looking for some succulent timeagave to make into timetequila or timepotatoes to make timevodka (I assume the boy is Tom Baker). Also if that kid was going to be a Time Lord he may have been instinctively drawn to places of meaningful historical value or some other such silliness.

Pesky Splinter
Feb 16, 2011

A worried pug.

Davros1 posted:

It's a whole lot better than the previous, Doctor, Ace, and and Benny story "The Shadow of the Scourge:, so it at least has that going for it. It's actually the only time Benny's not written as the ultimate Mary Sue.

It's a testament to Lisa Bowerman's charisma and acting, that Benny isn't completely insufferable as a character. That said, they certainly got way too self-indulgent with the character, especially in the latter Benny Summerfield audios.

Mind Loving Owl
Sep 5, 2012

The regeneration is failing! Hooooo...
I'm going to assume the kid was an Outsider with no access to the city, who probably hid for a while until he thought the scary glasses man forgot about him.

Pizdec
Dec 10, 2012

CobiWann posted:

The strengths of Moffat's script are enhanced by the direction of Rachel Talalay, who helmed Dark Water and Death in Heaven, and Murray Gold actually using an understated score for once. The actual “HOLY CRAP IT'S MURRAY GOLD MUSIC” moments work because they're paired with moments that actually called for emotional and impactful music.
Good writeup, but I gotta say, Gold has been on his best behaviour this entire season. There is a far better balance recently between bombast and more classic, electronic stuff and I love it. Moffat has been getting a lot of poo poo for listening to Tumblr, but I think his willingness to listen to feedback and make adjustments accordingly has been in general a welcome trend.

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."
I love the 80s synths from Heaven Sent, especially.

CobiWann
Oct 21, 2009

Have fun!

Pizdec posted:

Good writeup, but I gotta say, Gold has been on his best behaviour this entire season. There is a far better balance recently between bombast and more classic, electronic stuff and I love it. Moffat has been getting a lot of poo poo for listening to Tumblr, but I think his willingness to listen to feedback and make adjustments accordingly has been in general a welcome trend.

He really has. I poke fun at generalities over the past couple of seasons, but I can’t think of a time this series where the score has overwhelmed the on-screen action.

Mind Loving Owl
Sep 5, 2012

The regeneration is failing! Hooooo...
It's amazing how this series has turned around for me in its last couple of episodes. Now, I don't think any episode of Series 9 has been bad, exactly. Hell, it's produced the only Found Footage thing I've actually enjoyed. It's just that after so many Earth (or Sol) bound stories, it's really refreshing to have an episode so awash with otherness. Though, ironically, I think the budget for [i] Heaven Sent [/i} is why we haven't strayed far from 21st century Britain this year.

IceAgeComing
Jan 29, 2013

pretty fucking embarrassing to watch

Pesky Splinter posted:

It's a testament to Lisa Bowerman's charisma and acting, that Benny isn't completely insufferable as a character. That said, they certainly got way too self-indulgent with the character, especially in the latter Benny Summerfield audios.

This is very true, at least from what I've heard.

I've only listened to the two monthly stories (not very good), the New Adventures thing they did (which I liked) and the first series of the Benny Summerfield audios which were based on various NA books. It's mixed, there's some good stuff (the first panto based one is silly but it's the good type of silly plus it has Nicholas Courtney playing a talking cat (don't ask), the Babylon one was interesting and I really dug Love and War for some reason: they are both part of the same story arc but the one in the middle can be skipped unless you really need to hear Colin Baker's terrible Russian accent). There's some poo poo in there as well although that might be because they picked terrible books to adapt, idk

AndyElusive
Jan 7, 2007

Gaz-L posted:

This is actually the big gimmick of the current villain for the Eighth Doctor audios, a Time Lord that switches between all his personas. And some of the books have had the implication that the Doctor can indeed consult with his past selves in some way.

:vince:

I need Doom Coalition in my life, right now. Just read the synopsis of The Eleven and that sounds amazing.

pgroce
Oct 24, 2002
re: Gallifrey -- I'd prefer most of the Doctor's mysteries remain obscure, but one I'd like explained is why Gallifrey is as barren and inhospitable as Skaro. You can't blame the Time War; it was like that in Invasion of Time. (And the practical reason is "because quarries.") The New Series has chosen to keep things that way, though, and I'm sure they would have given the place some more climate variety if they'd been inclined to.

It rankles me a bit that the civilization that has ostensibly Figured Everything Out and Owns All of You is living in a little bubble on a shattered planet. Or heck, maybe it's an excellent metaphor for colonialist capitalism, but I'd like it if the show made that a bit more intentional.

If you want to mess with the show's mythology, tell us about that. Keep the big stuff shrouded in mystery.

Facebook Aunt
Oct 4, 2008

wiggle wiggle




Earth has spots like that, and also other spots that aren't like that. Maybe he just happens to visit the quarry-like parts of Gallifrey rather than the rainforests.

CobiWann
Oct 21, 2009

Have fun!

AndyElusive posted:

:vince:

I need Doom Coalition in my life, right now. Just read the synopsis of The Eleven and that sounds amazing.

The actor playing him is FANTASTIC in the part too.

kant
May 12, 2003

pgroce posted:

It rankles me a bit that the civilization that has ostensibly Figured Everything Out and Owns All of You is living in a little bubble on a shattered planet. Or heck, maybe it's an excellent metaphor for colonialist capitalism, but I'd like it if the show made that a bit more intentional.

If you want to mess with the show's mythology, tell us about that. Keep the big stuff shrouded in mystery.

Little bubble?! You make it sound like it's a bad thing. They have the perfect city with everything they could want without having to be bothered with the dirty 'outside'.

Tim Burns Effect
Apr 1, 2011

CobiWann posted:

The actor playing him is FANTASTIC in the part too.

I immediately recognized him as the voice of Blackbeard in Assassin's Creed 4 and he owns in that too
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsAqMyxl8cI

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PriorMarcus
Oct 17, 2008

ASK ME ABOUT BEING ALLERGIC TO POSITIVITY

pgroce posted:

re: Gallifrey -- I'd prefer most of the Doctor's mysteries remain obscure, but one I'd like explained is why Gallifrey is as barren and inhospitable as Skaro. You can't blame the Time War; it was like that in Invasion of Time. (And the practical reason is "because quarries.") The New Series has chosen to keep things that way, though, and I'm sure they would have given the place some more climate variety if they'd been inclined to.

It rankles me a bit that the civilization that has ostensibly Figured Everything Out and Owns All of You is living in a little bubble on a shattered planet. Or heck, maybe it's an excellent metaphor for colonialist capitalism, but I'd like it if the show made that a bit more intentional.

If you want to mess with the show's mythology, tell us about that. Keep the big stuff shrouded in mystery.

It's because Gallifrey is immeasurably ancient and the world itself long ago died. The grand cities are contained within the baubles because that contains their false atmosphere and ecology. That city might look small, but every building and corridor is bigger on the inside. If you measured the actual size of that city it would cover the entire Earth and theirs a few dozen of them on Gallifrey.

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