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Picklepuss posted:As I recall, in Terry Nation's original draft the Daleks are immobilized when their power is cut off but not killed, and while the Thals are trying to sort out just what to do next a third race turns up on Skaro -- mysterious aliens who admit to being responsible for having caused the war between the Dals and the Thals in the first place. They apologize, and the Daleks and Thals begin to reconcile at long last. Jesus Christ, it's always pretty amazing to see how things might have been, and imagine how it would have changed things. I wonder if Doctor Who would have had the popularity/longevity it did if the Daleks hadn't been a recurring thing. Obviously there are far more non-Dalek stories than Dalek ones, but they're so tied in/associated with the show, imagining them as a pure one-off is really difficult for me.
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Dec 9, 2015 22:20
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Jerusalem posted:Jesus Christ, it's always pretty amazing to see how things might have been, and imagine how it would have changed things. I wonder if Doctor Who would have had the popularity/longevity it did if the Daleks hadn't been a recurring thing. Obviously there are far more non-Dalek stories than Dalek ones, but they're so tied in/associated with the show, imagining them as a pure one-off is really difficult for me. Doctor Who might not have survived, no. The Daleks are *THE* reason we got Doctor Who past cavemen. The show was effectively dead. I have no idea if the show could have kept going without them. Just look at how much the Daleks dominated the First Doctor's era, and even beyond that- the two Doctor Who movies got just about everything they could wrong except when it came to the Daleks. The second movie just GAVE them top billing entirely. The Daleks were gigantic and almost got their own TV series and DID have their own adventure comics for a while. It's why they're still so tied with the show and have appeared in every media that the Doctor has.
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Dec 9, 2015 22:25
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That original ending is actually explored a bit in the Unbound audio Masters of War, if I remember it correctly (with a dash of added Davros and Brigadier, obviously). EDIT: I do think the Daleks would have gone on to appear again even if the original ending had aired, though. They were a massive hit pretty much straight off the back of the first episode, and I don't think anything would have changed that. After all, they do pretty much all completely die in the end of the serial, if memory serves, and that didn't stop them from invading Earth a bit later. Forktoss fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Dec 9, 2015 |
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Dec 9, 2015 22:54
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Jerusalem posted:Yeah, Marinus is certainly not a good story overall, but I quite dig the multiple settings. There's also something wonderful about Ian getting arrested and the Doctor showing up out of nowhere to defend him despite: That's like my favorite bit from "The Eye of the Scorpion" Erimem's been accused of murder, found guilty, found to be a false pharaoh, and is going to be put to death. The Doctor (who everyone assumed was dead) storms in, and in less than three minutes clears her of the crime, finds the true murderer, and proves her rightful claim to the throne.
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Dec 9, 2015 23:43
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Barry Foster posted:Nah, the last few frames have Eccleston's eyes and forehead and that. Not that it's a big deal either way, of course. Oh my god. Rose 'imprinted' on Nine, so we got mockney Ten. Amy imprinted on Eleven so we got Scottish Twelve. Clara imprinted on the War Doctor so we got northern Nine (she's from Lancashire).
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Dec 10, 2015 00:01
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Considering how argumentative and obnoxious the fifth Doctors companions are most of the time, It's no wonder Six turned out the way he did.
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Dec 10, 2015 00:05
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qntm posted:Well, heck, we never saw a single frame of Christopher Eccleston's face when John Hurt supposedly regenerated into him, so obviously there's a second missing, secret regeneration between War and Nine which not even the Doctor knows about. Remember the rumor that the Doctor was going to be revealed to really be the Master? CobiWann posted:…this is a thing now? What's up, let's go yell at clouds together. Gaz-L posted:I know you're talking about your avatar, but the current version of this incident is... not good, to be honest. Giffen and JMdM are trying to backpedal and fix it, but god did they start off with some ham-fisted jokes that were, at best, sexist, and at worst transphobic AND sexist. Oh I agree. I specifically chose this version because the new story is terrible.
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Dec 10, 2015 00:13
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Burkion posted:The Daleks were gigantic and almost got their own TV series How would that go? Wander the galaxy meeting new people each week and exterminating them?
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Dec 10, 2015 00:16
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Angela Christine posted:How would that go? Wander the galaxy meeting new people each week and exterminating them? Terry Nation was really really desperate to sell the rights in the US and make Big Cash, which is why the Daleks stopped appearing for a while after Evil. Given that left to his own devices he put out dreck like Planet you can't blame the people who turned him down.
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Dec 10, 2015 00:19
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Basically yeah. Nation had some good concepts and ideas, but he also could not be trusted to do things by himself without ruining his own work. Kind of like Frank Millar, but with less Sin City.
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Dec 10, 2015 00:23
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remusclaw posted:Considering how argumentative and obnoxious the fifth Doctors companions are most of the time, It's no wonder Six turned out the way he did. The last thing he saw wad Adric and the Master. No wonder it was choking time
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Dec 10, 2015 00:32
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bobkatt013 posted:The last thing he saw wad Adric and the Master. No wonder it was choking time Real Talk: the Five to Six regeneration is the best of the original series. quote:Is this death...
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Dec 10, 2015 00:44
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A tear, Sarah Jane?
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Dec 10, 2015 00:46
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remusclaw posted:A tear, Sarah Jane? quote:Change my dear, and not a moment too soon.
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Dec 10, 2015 00:48
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One led to Robot and the other led to The Twin Dilemma, though.
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Dec 10, 2015 01:05
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Gaz-L posted:One led to Robot and the other led to The Twin Dilemma, though. We're very specifically not talking about what came NEXT. Rewatching Hell Bent again and if there's a kind soul at the BBC they will release a full length track of Capaldi playing the Clara theme from the end of the diner scene. It's just lovely.
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Dec 10, 2015 01:40
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CobiWann posted:From what I gathered, Clara's death is a fixed point in time. The Doctor figured if he kept her in the TARDIS and took her to the end of time itself, that fact wouldn't matter anymore since time itself was gone. Since time was gone, her biological processes would just restart/reboot and everything would be fine. Thanks for the explanation! 
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Dec 10, 2015 02:30
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I just saw someone say that going from Heaven Sent to Hell Bent is like going from Caves Of Androzani to The Twin Dilemma. Wow. Now there's an opinion of dislike for Hell Bent that I can't believe has been voiced. (And one I disagree with 'cause I loved Hell Bent, but I am a Clara booster.) I mean, people here in the thread have not liked Hell Bent, but I think we can all agree that it wasn't Twin Dilemma bad; the Doctor didn't strangle Clara when he found her again, and it seems as if this episode will not have killed the show stone dead.
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Dec 10, 2015 02:53
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Fellow human scholars of Gallifrey, Previously we had been fed what we had deemed to be clearly false and ridiculous information about "looms" and their integral role in the reproductive cycle of the Time Lord. However, I have come across shocking evidence that the information may have merely been miscommunicated, as opposed to wholly incorrect. It is my belief that it is, in fact, the humble TARDIS that comes from the hallowed looms of The Missing Planet. 
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Dec 10, 2015 03:11
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Gaz-L posted:Thankfully you're not trying to defend the entire episode devoted to crossing a 'chasm' that I could walk across without changing stride. Go back a page, I actually point that out as being a lovely facet of the really old episodes before they settled on 4/6 parters for every serial. Jerusalem posted:I believe we have, yes. I understand your argument, I just still find the anti-pacifism stuff a trifle unsettling. Maybe I'd have to watch again, but I recall it being treated like the Thals are in the wrong for even wanting peace with their ancient enemy - maybe that's being unfair of me, but considering that the Thals are the descendants of survivors of a war where both sides almost wiped out all life on their planet, the fact that they've eager for peace and reconciliation was something I would have liked to have been embraced. At this point its been like a year and a half since I've seen it so I can't argue too definitively but I seem to remember it being more that the show was portraying peace at any cost as wrong. Its not like the serial was pro-war though, I think it did do a lot to talk about how war is bad. The whole first episode is spent exploring the seemingly dead planet-still not recovered from a nuclear war that took place, IIRC, hundreds of years prior. The semi-permanent nature of radiation is a huge plot point throughout the whole serial with the main characters basically falling over and being placed in mortal peril because of it. The Daleks, who were depicted as being in the right in the original war, mutated into beings that needed what was basically a bumper car to move around and were restricted to just that one city where they managed to hold out and not die. The Thals had to live in what I remember as being some sort of hut or tree-house type thing. And finally the final battle was shot in such a way that you were supposed to feel bad for both the Daleks and Thals who died. Despite being a "childrens show", albeit one that at least was trying to educate people, I think most of the concepts in the episode were pretty classic sci-fi. Looking back on that, I really regret that they degenerated the concept of the Daleks into Nazi Trashcans that were invented all at once by a mad scientist. Yeah, its hard to bring back those "The Daleks" Daleks but I think we could have done better than what we got. Cliff Racer fucked around with this message at 09:00 on Dec 10, 2015 |
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Dec 10, 2015 08:44
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remusclaw posted:A tear, Sarah Jane? Oh, well, here we go again Cliff Racer posted:Looking back on that, I really regret that they degenerated the concept of the Daleks into Nazi Trashcans that were invented all at once by a mad scientist. Yeah, its hard to bring back those "The Daleks" Daleks but I think we could have done better than what we got. Nazi trash cans were a major part of invasion of the daleks. I mean they had signs that were almost if not the same from the blitz hanging up. bobkatt013 fucked around with this message at 09:35 on Dec 10, 2015 |
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Dec 10, 2015 09:32
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 Short Synopsis: The Doctor isn't feeling himself, and an old villain very quickly finds himself behind the eight-ball. Long Synopsis: The Sixth Doctor and Evelyn track down an old friend and meet an old enemy who constantly seems to have the upper hand. The 7th Doctor returns centuries later to completely school him in laughably easy fashion. What's Good:
What's Not:
Final Thoughts: Project: Lazarus continues Big Finish's laudable but ill-executed effort to create a long-term, recurring storyline/nemesis for their audios, an effort that mirrors but predates the television revival's Torchwood. Picking up in the second half when Sylvester McCoy arrives on the scene and immediately takes complete control of the situation and runs rings around everybody, it also features a very strong performance from Colin Baker who gets to play a very different form of his long-standing character (in a storyline with echoes of season 9's Heaven Sent). But the story requires an investment in The Forge and especially Nimrod as viable opponents to the Doctor, but never earns it, just as they failed to impress in Project: Twilight. The split format means that the first half is depressingly bleak and not resolved until a later Sixth Doctor audio, and feels like a waste of time/spinning of tires until the very different story of the second half begins. Though the Forge didn't work out (at least for me), it did at least lead into the arrival of Hex as a permanent companion, including his fun chemistry with Ace. So in that sense, this story has merit, but if you didn't like Nimrod or the Forge in Project: Twilight, you're unlikely to find anything outside of McCoy and Baker to recommend this story. Jerusalem fucked around with this message at 09:55 on Dec 10, 2015 |
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Dec 10, 2015 09:52
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Are you sure you aren't thinking of the Daleks' second appearance?
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Dec 10, 2015 09:53
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Yeah, that was in their second appearance. The Daleks from The Daleks are quite different from the ones from The Dalek Invasion of Earth, necessarily so. They needed to adjust them and the Nazi parallels are far clearer, especially with humans replacing the Thals as the other side and the familiar imagery of London being the site of their invasion.
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Dec 10, 2015 10:06
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I do wonder if Torchwood caused Big Finish to move away from the concept of the Forge as a long-term villain, though they do show up a few more times (one more audio and several books). But yeah, Lazarus takes all the goodwill from Project: Twilight and tosses it away by making Nimrod (who I highly enjoyed in Project: Twilight) a 90’s style Image “grimdark” villain with cybernetics who causally offs those who fail him. Not even McCoy and Baker being great in the back half of the story (and Maggie Stables doing solid work in the first half) can get over this fact. The writers really wanted to make Nimrod the Big Finish version of the Master or any other reoccurring villain but took it way too far.
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Dec 10, 2015 12:37
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Also, Bugs Bunny forever ruined the usage of Nimrod as a name to be taken seriously.
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Dec 10, 2015 12:44
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So less threatening than the Pink sentinel of doom then I liked Nimrod better in the cartoon, where he couldnt talk
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Dec 10, 2015 13:06
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DeafNote posted:So less threatening than the Pink sentinel of doom then Man, RTD’s Big Gay Agenda is getting out of hand.
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Dec 10, 2015 14:02
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CobiWann posted:Man, RTD’s Big Gay Agenda is getting out of hand. That's a robot, not an agenda
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Dec 10, 2015 15:28
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Cliff Racer posted:Go back a page, I actually point that out as being a lovely facet of the really old episodes before they settled on 4/6 parters for every serial. I watched it this fall. The Thals had migrated from a "plateau" where they had been hiding for centuries but which was no longer capable of supporting their meagre agricultural society as it had since the war. In that story they more or less just live "in the woods." I don't think that wrong is the right word to describe the story's attitude towards pacifism. I'd go with "naively idealistic in any absolute form." The gist of Ian's rant to the Thals is "peace is well and good when it's possible, but you have literal insane murder machines living in that city, and 'peace' isn't part of their vocabulary, so you'll need a different plan." Likewise, I don't remember much sympathy for the dying Daleks at all. By the time we get to the final battle, they had already been established as genocidal psychopaths who want to exterminate everything. The Doctor &al had already unceremoniously killed one to escape imprisonment, and the Daleks had already used a diplomatic ruse as an opportunity to kill the Thals' pacifist leader. The only sympathy I remember the show offering to them is for them as living things which had become so wretchedly dependent on technology that they more or less became inert balls of flesh as soon as the floor was unplugged.
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Dec 10, 2015 15:44
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MrL_JaKiri posted:That's a robot, not an agenda This sounds like a great seed idea for a Who script.
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Dec 10, 2015 16:17
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FreezingInferno posted:I mean, people here in the thread have not liked Hell Bent, but I think we can all agree that it wasn't Twin Dilemma bad; the Doctor didn't strangle Clara when he found her again, and it seems as if this episode will not have killed the show stone dead.
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Dec 10, 2015 17:50
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The great thing about Hell Bent is that it doesn't do that either.
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Dec 10, 2015 19:44
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the Twin Dilemma is not that bad. It certainly isn't as bad as Timelash.
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Dec 10, 2015 20:09
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Counterpoint: The Doctor doesn't try and murder his companion in Timelash.
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Dec 10, 2015 20:24
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Rochallor posted:Counterpoint: The Doctor doesn't try and murder his companion in Timelash. CounterCounterpoint: Peri kind of deserved it.
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Dec 10, 2015 20:42
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cargohills posted:The great thing about Hell Bent is that it doesn't do that either. It brought back Rassilon (with a great actor) and then flubs it hard. It brought back the "half human on my mothers side" rubbish (yes I know it did not explicitly state that was the case but it did not deny it either). To each their own, but I think I'm done with Moffat produced Who. It does not feel like the real thing to me, and having a lesser version of Who recontextualize the entire history of the kickass show I love sucks. I want to watch some Hartnell but I'm caught between The Romans and The Space Museum. Could someone please recommend one of the two?
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Dec 10, 2015 20:48
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The Romans is good fun
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Dec 10, 2015 20:51
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Dr. Gene Dango MD posted:I want to watch some Hartnell but I'm caught between The Romans and The Space Museum. Could someone please recommend one of the two? 
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Dec 10, 2015 20:56
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They never said his fear when he left was due to the hybrid. It's just an extension of 'the Doctor runs away' theme they've been doing for ages
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Dec 10, 2015 21:15
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